Dave Ramsey on Obamacare

While he does a relatively holistic (Relatively) overview of universal social medicine, a huge problem with this discussion is he's stuck within an American dichotomy of Freedom vs. Statism, where a good few (rich) men must fight the lazy masses who wish to mooch off them.

Fact is that "Overweight, smokers who have had 3 heart attacks" is another way to say poor people. Poor people eat the worst food, have the least healthy hobbies and are both undereducated and underequipped to take care of themselves. So what you're talking about is essentially levelling the playing field for poor clients in healthcare. Now I know people in Cali who are on Obamacare and they have doctors turn them away on principle - they won't take a client that relies on "Filthy gubbmint". So when these people are sick instead of going to hand out CV's they spend a day in A&E to get seen for a mild fever. In Ireland if a doctor refused a client, under any condition, they would lose their practice.

And if you say "Well they shouldn't eat McDonalds for breakfast or smoke or drink their weight in cheap spirits" you also end up back at this man's argument on jobs: Those industries rely on poor people to consume their wares. George Bush won't smoke cheap cigarettes and drink cheap rye whiskey. You need your forklift driver or walmart employee on 60 hours a week and food stamps. If Obamacare costs people jobs, so does poor people not relying on the welfare state for shitty food. If the poorest started to do what they could to eat and live healthy, the service industry in the US would collapse.

Not to mention this already ridiculous dichotomy ignores issues America has with corporate tax evasion, wealth taxes and the unceasing over spending on this wacko 21st century technological imperialism where you insist on flying expensive robots over Pakistan (which is the sort of sh*t hole that couldn't threaten America if America stopped research weapons development for the bones of a century, it's just politics). America has the money for good social policies but the "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and "I'm alright, Jack" anti-statist rhetoric is so strong that its a wonder that parents are killing other people's children to get their little Timmie's pupil-teacher ratio down.

God I hate Libertarians. And I hate when they pretend that they're anything other than disingenuous class traitor scumbags. That "If you like communism" comment and the gun thing seals the deal. The man deserves a punch in the face and only in America is such baseless, ignorant rhetoric even deemed a form of journalism. I don't mean to go off on one John but, well, you posted it!

It's already working that way in Taxachusetts, I'm a single non smoker and I pay as much as a 500 lb man with diabetes.


Oh, and I'm also a Libertarian.


Leaning toward Primitivism Anarchist

I think you take your ideology a little far. Look at definitions of the 2 party system.. Republican is defined as someone who wants less government influence on personal affairs. Democrats want more.

That's all.

So where did all these reproductive rights or gay marriage or religion talk come from? Those have nothing to do with "government". those are all personal agendas that have permeated into the narrative of these two sides. those are all emotional investments by the members of the parties and have nothing to do with really running a government.

Libertarians don't want that emotional baggage. They want an impartial government who does what the people ask of them, not putting in their own little additions and emotional spins on the bills they push through.


That gets you nothing but bickering and partisanship on their end, with lies and spin coming from the media and the government as they try to confuse and force the citizens into choosing the lesser of two perceived evils.

I'm not buying into it.  I'd rather just boot the lot of the bums out and start over before having to choose.

But to answer your healthcare question, I'm going to surprise you.  

I'm all for universal healthcare.  I'm all for paying so that others can have a quality of life through health.  I'm all against nasty fast food and the business practices of companies who take advantage of workers.

Why?  Because I believe the constitution guarantees that the government will protect it's citizens from ALL threats foreign and DOMESTIC.

That means the government should have stopped the predatory business practices of the large banks and investment firms that caused the last collapse.  But they didn't.  Why?  Because the corrupt government is in bed with them.  Just look at the law that ALLOWS congress to insider trade.  Now why is the government corrupt?  Because they are TOO LARGE and HAVE TOO MUCH POWER for the citizen to control them anymore and they get to do whatever the please as long as the citizens are placated.  Same goes for the predatory Health Insurance companies.  Instead of government oversight, our bloated and corrupt government can't move fast enough to keep up with all the ways the citizen is screwed.

So in the case of the "Affordable Health Care Act", I have absolutely no confidence that the government can handle what they are proposing.  Not only in the logistical sense, but in the monetary sense.

We already have government sanctioned health care and retirement.  Why do we need another form of healthcare?

Social Security..  Broke.  Borrowed against and dwindling fast.
Medicare/Medicaid.. Mismanaged and broke.  Full of fraud and nobody cares to actually work out the problems.
IRS.. Even if they taxed everything 100% we couldn't pay off the debt and stop deficit spending, even with 10 years worth of revenue.

So a government who is broke, who borrows against it's own programs to fund others and can't bring in enough revenue to get itself out of the hole it's in wants YET ANOTHER government sanctioned healthcare system..

That either means the government thinks Medicare/Medicaid is SO BROKEN that it can't be fixed..

Or they want another source for revenue..  They've suckled the other services dry and now see the record profits that insurance companies reap from their customers and they see that as a cash cow.  They can charge slightly less to get more customers and fine those who don't get it.  Either way, they are making money and will eventually kill off all other competition meaning 100% revenue.

In other words, I don't see "Obamacare" as the saving grace that it's touted as.  It's a colossal goatfuck.

What they should do instead is protect us against predatory insurance practices.  But they don't.  They want a piece of the revenue pie instead.  Look at Kathleen Sebilius who solicited funding from Blue Cross/Blue Shield and later appointed a senior VP of BCBS to the National Committee on Health and Human services..  Conflict of interest anyone?

But again, I think proper ACCESS to health care is a right to "life" as in the "life/liberty/happiness".  But it's access, not mandatory as the government has made it.  But why is it mandatory?  See above.  The government has allowed the predatory insurance companies and healthcare industry to dictate that the "costs" of healthcare be ridiculously high and now they can't do anything about it at this point.  They've back themselves and the rest of us into a corner.  It's nothing but politics and revenue gathering, as you should expect from the government at this point.  

I think it should be exactly like the original Social Security design.  You pay into a fund, and if you need healthcare, you can use it.  The government CAN NEVER borrow against it.  FOREVER.  That's how the original Social Security was supposed to work until congress changed it so they COULD borrow against it.  However, i think instead of outright payment to the healthcare institution you visit, an amount of the payment should be held in escrow until your cure is complete.  This should stop the predatory "copay farming" that happens so often when doctors keep you coming back over and over for "checkups" and things that are unnecessary and ultimately jack up the insurance rates to sky high values you see today.

It'll never happen though.  Everyone in the industry and in government has figured out a niche to make a few bucks on everyone around them.  With the lax government oversight that Obamacare is surely to have, I can only see the predatory practices getting worse.

Same goes for Capitalism.  Capitalism works, but what we have isn't capitalism.  It's powerful corporations that use the government to control the population.

First step..  Sever the link between businesses and government.  No more lobbyists.  No more favors.  No more leaving the government and getting high paying token jobs for companies that you help.  No more cronyism.

Tony, agreed on most points. It's hard to say what the real fiscal happenings are in the government because there is so much cross pollination of money and none of it is visible to the citizen.

Especially agree with the cure. The largest revenues of drug companies are currently the "statins" which "treat" high cholesterol. Although the original, single, study that gave a small hint that statins might be effective, none of the subsequent studies have shown that they even affect the heart attack statistics at all, yet the US government has just lowered it's cholesterol guidance numbers so that now more people are in the "high" range and therefor will be put on statins.

Nobody stops to ask why a liquid oil like cholesterol suddenly hardens in the arteries around the heart even though it's surrounded by another liquid(blood). They are told that "it just does, because there is too much", even though other scientists have found genetic markers in the plaques that might show that arterial plaques are caused by some kind of infectious agent. These studies have been shelved by Big Pharma because it would halt Billions of dollars of revenue overnight to learn that a course of antibiotics can stop heart disease.. Much like the old school thought that ulcers were caused by stress and diet alone and the resistance to the findings of Marshall and Warren that ulcers were cause by bacteria. NO! said the establishment. Constant treatment is the only solution! There is no simple fix! But they were proven wrong and now ulcers are fixed by a couple antibiotics.

Svart, i think the one thing all of us can agree on, liberal, conservatives, libertarians, greens, whigs lol...This system is really broken, it's going to be interesting to see how long we can circle the drain before someone throws a stopper in, or we just shoot down!

1st, most people do NOT want it defunded, obama care was the center piece of the 2012 election! He won the election by 6,000,000 votes, it was an ACA referendum, how the heck do you come up with that one??
2nd Consent has nothing to do with it, slavery was the law of the land, should that have stayed because of consent? The majority conservative supreme court of the USA deemed the ACA as constitutional, anything that places an undo burden on the health and function of society is subject to the common good principles of the constitution, you can't yell fire in a crowded theatre, you can't partake in business practices that can break the american economy or cause harm to others. Exploding healthcare costs are well on there way to doing exactly that, causing harm to others, mainly because irresponsible people don't want to pay for it, or profit based insurance companies deny people(a lot who are covered), they end up in the emergency rooms w/no insurance, which costs all of us taxpayer upwards of 20 times what it would've cost with coverage and preventative care. 

I believe it costs 8,000 $ more per person here in the us with worse statistical outcomes, than the the best universal health care country in the world.
That is a disgrace considering we are the richest country in the history of the world. The main reason why they have better outcomes? everyone is covered, and people go to the doctor when they're sick, here they go to the emergency room when they're dying, with no insurance.

There are gonna be a lot of people denying or eating crow when they realize how much better this is going to get for the PEOPLE.

I live in Romneycare-ville, which is the foundation for the ACA. Trust me, it doesn't work, and it won't work. The premiums will go up several times a year because they can't factor in an unpredictable economy.


Edit to add: Another issue that dogs Romneycare, and will dog Obamacare, is there is no oversight monitoring people that work under the table then get a great plan for $10 a month that costs the tax payers tons. Now picture millions upon millions of these leeches sucking off the system. This is the biggest factor in why it will fail.

O.K so the quote system here isn't great for actual debate. Tony's color coding is a good option though. I'm going to do that.

Guys, take it from someone with socialized medicine... it sucks. Invest 30 minutes twice a week into your health and eat right.

I just quit smoking ($15 a pack here because the medicare)

That's funny, Kiefer Sutherland said it works great!

Still on a year waiting list for a hearing specialist, two years ago, people die waiting for care.

again, no offense, show some documented proof of such a claim on any scale, there are always going to be completely indigent people, for a host of different reasons, and they should be looked after by their fellow decent citizens, we are a christian nation after all  , at least until the A moral, faux christians demagogue enough power to set up their gas chambers....sigh 

but beside this, the ACA is NOT based on romneycare, it's based on the netherlands system, but i suppose you are entitled to believe what ever you want, and see what you want to see...It's the USWay these days, facts be damned! i'm on this side!