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Post by b1 on Oct 17, 2015 10:19:23 GMT -6
From everyone's complaints with Avid, I think I would have a mental block from doing business with them, to the point that every time I started a session, I would be in a "down" mood from remembering how much they spoil the experience through their tactics. I think I would gladly walk away. Surely other studios have a fall back DAW for those times when PT doesn't cooperate. They should be able to adapt to a customers setup anyway... I would think/hope.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 17, 2015 11:40:41 GMT -6
Avid/digi have always had a love/hate relationship with individuals. Large facilities treat it like hardware buying a complete system, running it for five to ten years virtually unchanged and then replacing the interfaces, computer and all. It's like comparing a Hasselblad SLR with a point and shoot Nikon. The latter will do a fine job for most people.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,940
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Post by ericn on Oct 17, 2015 12:22:02 GMT -6
Avid/digi have always had a love/hate relationship with individuals. Large facilities treat it like hardware buying a complete system, running it for five to ten years virtually unchanged and then replacing the interfaces, computer and all. It's like comparing a Hasselblad SLR with a point and shoot Nikon. The latter will do a fine job for most people. As Bob said the focus has always been large scale video post & video. You ask one of these clients about the "evils of Avid" they laugh at you and explain that compared to Sony & Panasonic Avid is a dream! With the Revenue from the Presidential Election cycle it's becoming more and mor of reinvesting every 4 years ! That's where all that PAC and C103P money is ending up!
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 17, 2015 13:19:29 GMT -6
A lot of people don't realize that large studios and post facilities have always leased most of their gear and prefer to lease or rent everything for tax reasons. Also, Sony, Panasonic and Harman are the most likely companies to acquire Avid.
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Post by ragan on Oct 17, 2015 14:01:50 GMT -6
Since we're on the subject of Pro Tools and editing, I have a question if anybody would like to help this poor fool. LOL I'm using Pro Tools non HD software. I would like to cut the waveform of a track into pieces and be able to volume automate these waveforms. Yet, when I do this in PT, I still get the long line of the volume automation of the entire track. Is it possible to just automate a small section of a cut waveform only? That alone would make my life much easier. Also, once I do a volume edit using the trim tool over the selected area, if I want to change this edit by trying to get a hold of the grabber points and getting the exact points I'm often a bit over and it will lift the volume line after the trimmed portion. So, I have to go back and try it again. Is there something I'm not understanding? You would think you could lock onto this edit easily, but for me the trim grabber points are so small that it's very hard to get the start and finish points precisely. Thanks to anybody with suggestions. If I understand you correctly, you want to edit a portion of a track that already has automation within it. You can do this by highlighting that portion and raising or lowering it BUT if the boundaries of your highlight aren't precisely on the edit points at the edge, you will also affect the previous and later parts of the audio. If that's what you're talking about, it is a pain. If the automation within that part isn't too complicated (like 3 or 4 rises/dips) I just hover above each line and pull it up or down individually. If it's something you drew with the pencil and it's all curvy or whatever, you gotta highlight and pull up or down together and then fix the boundaries. One thing you can do is add a couple edit points just before and after what you're going to highlight so when you pull the highlighted region around the only collateral damage is the tiny little spans at the edges. Also, I find using the smart tool to be incredibly time saving in editing.
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Post by WKG on Oct 17, 2015 20:59:25 GMT -6
ya $99 a year for current software isn't terrible, its how avid is doing business that truly upsets me; enough that I now wonder, if I want to support the company with my hard earned money at all; or just move on. $99 wouldn't kill me. Problem here is I did the CPTK HD upgrade to 11 to get to 64bit so it's $599 now.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 17, 2015 21:42:11 GMT -6
can we talk about how long Cubase/Logic/Ableton/DP have had Offline bounce compared to when ProTools implemented it?
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 17, 2015 21:59:50 GMT -6
can we talk about how long Cubase/Logic/Ableton/DP have had Offline bounce compared to when ProTools implemented it? can we talk about how long PT has been the Professional studio standard compared to how cubase/logic/Ableton/Dp still aren't? Off line bounce is for people who are braver than myself, i always listen down the bounce as it happens, and after it happens, and that includes stems, it takes a while, but your job is to listen and make sure your DELIVERING un compromised product to your clients, nothing says "I could care less" more to a client than a glitchy off line bounce.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 17, 2015 22:33:44 GMT -6
I don't use the lanes function in Cubase, either. I can cut a vocal into segments, listen to it, hit delete, hear the next one, hit delete and so on. When I find the best pass after going through them all, I cross fade and move on. If I think it's back to ones I have already deleted, I simply hit Control Z and go back to whatever take it was that I felt was superior. Way faster than anything else I have tried. I do tons of vocal editing here and am pretty dang efficient at it. I do make a copy of the vocal track and disable it before I start comping as well. So, if I change my mind, it's sitting right there to grab a line from without even having to resort back to the pool, loosing time in the process. I see how that could be faster...
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 17, 2015 22:36:32 GMT -6
can we talk about how long Cubase/Logic/Ableton/DP have had Offline bounce compared to when ProTools implemented it? can we talk about how long PT has been the Professional studio standard compared to how cubase/logic/Ableton/Dp still aren't? Off line bounce is for people who are braver than myself, i always listen down the bounce as it happens, and after it happens, and that includes stems, it takes a while, but your job is to listen and make sure your DELIVERING un compromised product to your clients, nothing says "I could care less" more to a client than a glitchy off line bounce. Can't offline bounce through hardware either. That said, it's great for roughs and demos. The freeze is what I'm looking for.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 17, 2015 22:40:27 GMT -6
mind BLOWN @ 26:11 if it doesn't auto jump to that spot when you hit play. Yeah - that's impressive.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 17, 2015 22:45:28 GMT -6
can we talk about how long Cubase/Logic/Ableton/DP have had Offline bounce compared to when ProTools implemented it? can we talk about how long PT has been the Professional studio standard compared to how cubase/logic/Ableton/Dp still aren't? Off line bounce is for people who are braver than myself, i always listen down the bounce as it happens, and after it happens, and that includes stems, it takes a while, but your job is to listen and make sure your DELIVERING un compromised product to your clients, nothing says "I could care less" more to a client than a glitchy off line bounce. But I attribute that to it being the first professional solution. People learned it and they still use it. BTW - I'm not anti PT's either. I'll probably end up going with 12 just because I couldn't drop $899 three years form now to get back into it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 17, 2015 22:47:20 GMT -6
Nobody has made anything as good as Pro Tools overall other than for MIDI. If they had, I can assure you most Pro Tools users would have switched. As for Avid, they are pretty much following Microsoft, Adobe and Autodesk's lead into software as a service since they have been losing money for over a decade with their previous business model. I prefer them doing this as opposed to selling out to Harman or Sony who would probably ditch all of the music features and turn it into HD post production software as a service. With respect, I disagree, Bob...But I'm also coming at it from a home user's perspective and not a pro studio/50 tracks per session guy...I have no idea how dependable the other DAW's are in that respect.
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Post by lpedrum on Oct 17, 2015 22:56:47 GMT -6
How many times do I have to read on RGO that Protools is the only truly professional DAW, implying that the rest of us that make our living using other DAWs are somehow amateurs? The REALITY is that unless an AE is doing post work, many DAWs do the job equally well, and it's simply a matter of personal preference. It's no different than choosing a Gibson over a Martin. I realize that it's fun to debate gear and that's part of the reason we log on. But there's a rancor and arrogance that comes from some Protools defenders that's insulting to those of us who don't belong to that religion.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 18, 2015 1:29:37 GMT -6
can we talk about how long Cubase/Logic/Ableton/DP have had Offline bounce compared to when ProTools implemented it? can we talk about how long PT has been the Professional studio standard compared to how cubase/logic/Ableton/Dp still aren't? Off line bounce is for people who are braver than myself, i always listen down the bounce as it happens, and after it happens, and that includes stems, it takes a while, but your job is to listen and make sure your DELIVERING un compromised product to your clients, nothing says "I could care less" more to a client than a glitchy off line bounce. I don't know any guys who compose for film that use ProTools. they all compose in Logic or Digital Performer or (rarely) Cubase. so, perhaps we're discussing different things. If you understood the code running behind the scenes for how the plugins render audio per buffer (those ~512 samples) you'd see how safe offline bounce is. Show me an offline bounce that doesn't null out with a realtime bounce (excluding mixes that use outboard hardware) if you can
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 18, 2015 1:38:49 GMT -6
How many times do I have to read on RGO that Protools is the only truly professional DAW, implying that the rest of us that make our living using other DAWs are somehow amateurs? The REALITY is that unless an AE is doing post work, many DAWs do the job equally well, and it's simply a matter of personal preference. It's no different than choosing a Gibson over a Martin. I realize that it's fun to debate gear and that's part of the reason we log on. But there's a rancor and arrogance that comes from some Protools defenders that's insulting to those of us who don't belong to that religion. i think the most annoying part is when the protools users talk about how they're going to begrudgingly learn Logic or Cubase *eventually*. like, they're immediately assuming that they're being forced to learn an inferior product. It's not inferior. it's DIFFERENT. Les Paul vs. Strat vs. PRS. it's still got 6 strings, still got at least 21 frets. It's still gonna do what every DAW does, even if the keystrokes and edit commands are slightly different. It's gonna allow you to record a bunch of tracks simultaneously, gonna allow you to edit the audio tracks individually or grouped together (including editing multiple tracks from different takes simultaneously as long as they all start at the same SMPTE code), gonna allow you to dial in some plugins and use sends/auxes/outboard hardware and draw some automation. Seriously, get over it! how about everyone stop posting about their reluctance to try another DAW or their complaints with ProTools and just put in an hour in front of the new DAW? do that for a week, and see what happens. Every time I open up Logic and scroll thru the Key Commands, I find something new that makes me say "wow, you can do that? awesome!!"
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 18, 2015 5:54:51 GMT -6
gee is it ok if preference is personal or do we need your approval ? The thread started about my concerns not about the daw but about avid's pricing. I spend my dough carefully and after already investing $1000's and i only run vanilla on pro tools, it bugs me that I can't get a dot bug release for a version 11 that I own ( but avid is fine with me running its buggy software. I have never been able to import video into 11 so use 10)) and it further bugs me that if I don't buy 12 within 6 months I will be marooned and can then only get back to current if I pay full list as if I have not paid avid a cent in the past. So, I am not forced to learn a new DAW and I don't think protools superior I just know it and would rather not have extra expense. I have tried the studio one demo and does anybody know why logic has no demo, kind of odd ?
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 18, 2015 6:06:21 GMT -6
the demo is available from torrent sites :-P
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Post by M57 on Oct 18, 2015 6:49:23 GMT -6
and does anybody know why logic has no demo, kind of odd ? Good question. No doubt they could do it if they wanted to. I guess the folks at Apple sport a different kind of arrogance. Don't get me wrong - I use and love LP, but you would think they would offer a trial version to woo the disgruntled PT crowd. ..or maybe their strategy is they want you to take a $200 leap of faith. Strangely enough, I didn't get the trial version of Pro Tools, but I can tell you this.. As a non-engineer with little experience, if I had auditioned Pro-Tools for 30 days, I probably wouldn't have purchased it. It had a massive learning curve, and it was buggy out of the box. I used it for 3 or 4 years, and found it too complicated for my weekend warrior amateur studio. You have to use it or lose it, and I was constantly forced to re-learn stuff if I didn't use it for a month. One thing that absolutely confounded me was setting up busses. I'm sure I never did it right, so I remember being blown away when I first used Logic and choose a send from a track, and when the buss didn't exist, Logic created one! I liken the PT/LP/insert-your-favorite-DAW-here dilemma to the Finale/Sibelius debates of 15 or so years ago. Some may remember it differently, but my recollection is that Finale (which had been around longer), was more powerful, enabling users to fine-tune more stuff and get the score looking exactly like they wanted, while Sibelius just looked great out of the box, making better layout decisions with little tweaking. And just like with the DAW wars, with each version update, they started to become more like each other.
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Post by henge on Oct 18, 2015 7:32:38 GMT -6
Nobody has made anything as good as Pro Tools overall other than for MIDI. If they had, I can assure you most Pro Tools users would have switched. As for Avid, they are pretty much following Microsoft, Adobe and Autodesk's lead into software as a service since they have been losing money for over a decade with their previous business model. I prefer them doing this as opposed to selling out to Harman or Sony who would probably ditch all of the music features and turn it into HD post production software as a service. With respect, I disagree, Bob...But I'm also coming at it from a home user's perspective and not a pro studio/50 tracks per session guy...I have no idea how dependable the other DAW's are in that respect. It seems this is the main point against other Daws, the ability to track large sessions with plugs at extremely low latencies. I've never had to record more than 8 tracks at a time ( without plugs) with Reaper. I have no idea how it would fare with 64 tracks with plugs at the lowest latency my card would allow. With PT it's gauranteed that no glitches will occur ( I'm assuming). Other than that I can't see any advantage.
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Post by Randge on Oct 18, 2015 8:00:06 GMT -6
can we talk about how long Cubase/Logic/Ableton/DP have had Offline bounce compared to when ProTools implemented it? can we talk about how long PT has been the Professional studio standard compared to how cubase/logic/Ableton/Dp still aren't? Off line bounce is for people who are braver than myself, i always listen down the bounce as it happens, and after it happens, and that includes stems, it takes a while, but your job is to listen and make sure your DELIVERING un compromised product to your clients, nothing says "I could care less" more to a client than a glitchy off line bounce. I always drop the files I am sending out back into the project and make certain of what I am sending my clients. That way, you can see your final waveform and make sure you are giving them what you intended to give them. I like having all the final files in the project when it gets archived, too. That way, if anyone ever needs it again or wants to re-mix/re-master 29 yrs from now, they can and all of the before, during and final processed files are there for them to use in hi-res. I am always thinking for the future.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 18, 2015 8:16:57 GMT -6
you can make great recordings on all the platforms, pick your poison, but on these "Avid debacle threads" there continues to be a bit of an aggressive tone coming from guys who DON'T USE PT, and are biasing toward what they use? make no mistake about it, the vast majority of PT users(and we are VAST), WE LOVE THIS SOFTWARE, BUT HATE THE CURRENT STATE OF THE CO, so guys coming in trying to somehow make us believe that their chosen platform is somehow superior? is a waste of time, adversarial, and counter productive imv. NoFilterChuck I'm not the only one who's afraid to offline bounce, ^ and not without good reason, my personal suggestion is ALWAYS CLOSELY listen down a bounced, file, you'd be amazed how far down the line a random click or a pop can make it before it gets noticed, and you can bet your arse it's you who'll ultimately pay the price for that mistake if it happens. www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/719317-logic-pro-9-offline-bounce-unreliable.html
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Post by Randge on Oct 18, 2015 8:49:26 GMT -6
How can you love the software if it's cons list grows faster than the pros list does? I just don't get it. Jerome Mason, a lifer PT guy, just bought Cubase 8 and within months, I will bet ya that he leaves PT in the dust once he learns the capabilities in Cubase. Since he has been tracking here lately, it will be convenient and fast for him to go right to work editing at his place instead of transferring files, so there is a reason behind it, not just to try new software. Use what you want to, no one here is telling you what to do, that's for sure, but I simply don't have random clicks and pops. I use Izotope and vari-Audio to comb every track very carefully long before I am burning down a mix. I don't have thousands of edits because I hire musicians that kick ass and get it pretty spot on at tracking. I commit and consolidate as I go and carefully color coordinate my tracks so there is no confusion of what I have finished and what I am still working on.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 18, 2015 8:58:42 GMT -6
This is like converting someone to a different religion. Only DAWALLAH can change their hearts.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 18, 2015 8:59:35 GMT -6
I hear ya Randge and other non put daw users. I had my daw tail between my legs till this 11.3.2 thing happened:) I will by another daw cus I won't pay avid $100 a year forever.
I appreciate people sharing their workflow, tips and trix:interesting to have working insights into other daws:thx !
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