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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 7, 2015 8:41:48 GMT -6
I heard a significant difference, even on the transcoded files. That was because some of the PCM and relab LEX have not been matched close enough to the M7. I think its unfair to judge any tool by posting a single file. You will get 1000 opinions. At least in my book I need two or three weeks to work with the tools. I want to know how a tool reacts in the mixing context. Special in reverb there are algos which sound super cool on single sources, but they do not make it in the mix. Its a serious decision because wiz also could have a very nice vacation for the money. No offense, but u said u could/did match it close enough that it wouldn't matter, myself and wiz both picked out the bricasti correctly, even on files that were transcoded, and now it seems the goal posts are moving? this place can be incredibly frustrating! I do find it interesting that guys like dandeurloo, Jim Williams, Scott liebers and more, plus now Peter... AND my own ears are telling me a different story than u r, I honestly hope u enjoy ur pcm, it's a sig amount of money as well, but a $2k diff isn't a deal breaker for some of us who may be very serious about getting the best sound we can possibly achieve, it's the same reason I'm going to build a pair of real plate verbs(cue the UAD plates are as good as the real thing crowd  ) $3,200 is about the same cost as a serious microphone, If I heard the diffs in a couple mic's that I'm hearing with the bricasti, it'd be a no brainer, the difference being I'd probably use this bricasti thing in every single mix I'd do, I can't say the same about any mic I've ever owned. |
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 7, 2015 8:43:16 GMT -6
I wonder, can I stop my Relab verb from doing the tail pushing to the sides thing, and just be a room? I have little experience EQing and manipulating reverbs. I typically rolloff around 250, and cut the highs back a bit, but that's it. I haven't explored all the Ralab has, I like the Med and large halls, and have stuck with them. Do not know the relab but with the pcm 96 it helps to pull down the Tail in level. wiz I would love to hear more oft the M7 Rooms.... |
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 7, 2015 8:47:46 GMT -6
That was because some of the PCM and relab LEX have not been matched close enough to the M7. I think its unfair to judge any tool by posting a single file. You will get 1000 opinions. At least in my book I need two or three weeks to work with the tools. I want to know how a tool reacts in the mixing context. Special in reverb there are algos which sound super cool on single sources, but they do not make it in the mix. Its a serious decision because wiz also could have a very nice vacation for the money. No offense, but u said u could/did match it close enough that it wouldn't matter, myself and wiz both picked out the bricasti correctly, even on files that were transcoded, and now it seems the goal posts are moving? this place can be incredibly frustrating! I do find it interesting that guys like dandeurloo, Jim Williams, Scott liebers and more, plus now Peter... AND my own ears are telling me a different story than u r, I honestly hope u enjoy ur pcm, it's a sig amount of money as well, but a $2k diff isn't a deal breaker for some of us who may be very serious about getting the best sound we can possibly achieve, it's the same reason I'm going to build a pair of real plate verbs(cue the UAD plates are as good as the real thing crowd ) $3,200 is about the same cost as a serious microphone, If I heard the diffs in a couple mic's that I'm hearing with the bricasti, it'd be a no brainer, the difference being I'd probably use this bricasti thing in every single mix I'd do, I can't say the same about any mic I've ever owned. You listened to my last file and you still think its a sognificant diference. If yes so it is for you a difference which is significant, not for me. If you remember right I used the term - to try to match as close I can get. For real I do not have time for conversations like this, if you like the M7... I am the last one who wants to talk you out of it. It is a taste thing have fun Tony..... |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 7, 2015 8:52:35 GMT -6
You know you have gas when you don't think the difference is worth the money but you want the unit anyway...Sigh...
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 7, 2015 11:19:15 GMT -6
I only listened briefly to the A, B & C files. I picked A as my preference for the tune, B, a close second. Who knows, I might have chosen the Bricasti on another tune. When I heard the Bricasti at AES in 2013, I instantly new it was the best digital reverb I'd ever heard, but my choice tells me, the 'best" reverb can be track dependent too.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 7, 2015 12:18:03 GMT -6
Track depended taste depended … a good song will work even without the Bricasti.
@johnkenn
I may talk a lot of gas, but I am happy with the tools I own.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 7, 2015 12:35:50 GMT -6
I was talking about myself.
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 7, 2015 12:37:08 GMT -6
I just spent some time trying to dial in Phoenix Verb compared to Wiz's Bricasti file. The Bricasti is definitely richer, deeper and smoother, at least in my comparison in the time I had. Wiz, did you run the entire mix through the Bricasti? Analog in? The Bricasti file felt smoother all around, not just the tails. I was wondering if maybe if you ran analog into the Bricasti, if the Bricasti's conversion might account for some differences?
I did get close with the Phoenix Verb, but I couldn't get the depth right. It was easier to tell them apart in the intro where there is space in the song to hear the reverb tails. It became less easier to tell them apart as the mix got busier.
Is it close enough? Are the differences worth $3400? Well, those are questions.
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 7, 2015 17:07:22 GMT -6
Just to add, I think the differences lay firmly within the last 10% (for me, anyways).
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Post by wiz on Sept 7, 2015 17:31:59 GMT -6
I just spent some time trying to dial in Phoenix Verb compared to Wiz's Bricasti file. The Bricasti is definitely richer, deeper and smoother, at least in my comparison in the time I had. Wiz, did you run the entire mix through the Bricasti? Analog in? The Bricasti file felt smoother all around, not just the tails. I was wondering if maybe if you ran analog into the Bricasti, if the Bricasti's conversion might account for some differences? I did get close with the Phoenix Verb, but I couldn't get the depth right. It was easier to tell them apart in the intro where there is space in the song to hear the reverb tails. It became less easier to tell them apart as the mix got busier. Is it close enough? Are the differences worth $3400? Well, those are questions. The whole mix was through the Bricasti. Analog. (its the only way I can connect it to my Motu 16A) Here's the rub. You can't make a plugin, sound like this thing. Not yet. Thats just the way it is. Thats my opinion. You can make a plug in sound either great or acceptable, even some people will like the plug in better, or come to the conclusion that the difference isn't worth it to them. Valid viewpoint. Thats perfectly acceptable and cool. No one should have to defend their position in this either way. Whats good for one isn't always going to be good for another, and certainly not everyone. mrholmes loves his PCM96 plug in, and feels he can do things he likes to the music he makes, and that when he hears the Bricasti, that he doesn't feel that what it brings is worth the money. Valid view point. My view, I immediately picked out what was what in the blind test... and I still like the Bricasti best. The difference in those files , for me, its huge...what the PCM does to the music and what my own RELAB does to the music in those examples... is a step backwards. Valid view point? I think so. For me, its a purchase I will make, when this loan unit has to go back.. I think.. hey maybe then I will change my mind.. 8) I thought I would NEVER buy a digital based box again... see I am wrong..sometimes... 8) cheers Wiz |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 7, 2015 17:32:53 GMT -6
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 7, 2015 17:51:34 GMT -6
For me, its a purchase I will make, when this loan unit has to go back.. I think.. hey maybe then I will change my mind.. 8) Classic one.....LOL |
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Post by wiz on Sept 7, 2015 19:58:31 GMT -6
Hey Johnkennthanks heaps for doing those! I really find the 224 interesting.. thats really good. It interesting to hear the UAD Plate, after so many years. I used to own that back when I had UAD-1 cards up unit about 7 years or so ago. You don't own the Ocean Way do you? Thats the one I would really like to hear... in some ways , thats probably the only plug in type thingy that is sort of the same idea... you know, room replacer. thanks again cheers Wiz |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 7, 2015 20:13:50 GMT -6
I don't...I know a couple of people here really like it...I didn't think it brought much different to the table.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 7, 2015 21:24:49 GMT -6
Thanks John, that was cool. I enjoyed hearing all of them. It's late, so I had to listen on headphones.
This time, I preferred the Bricasti IR's, but my second choice was the EMT-140, I felt the Valhalla and the Lex pushed the vocal too far up, the Bricasti put the vocal at more of a natural sounding distance. I liked the EMT-140 next, because it's highly colored and vibey, not in spite of it being so.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 8, 2015 1:51:53 GMT -6
To me Johns post shows how many good reverb options we have today. And sometimes, in a busy mix, even a bad verb with ringing cuts it better than any lush sounding verb. Its hard to make general statements. I can imagine that many AE prefer the Lexicon sound for POP music. On the other side I do love some of the M7 IRs when track acoustic guitar.
Maybe things like the M7, and the Quantec Yardstick, are the only ones who can recreate the feel of real rooms the best.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Sept 8, 2015 5:33:13 GMT -6
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 8, 2015 7:08:59 GMT -6
I heard the bricasti adding compression, actually. that's why it sounded more glued to my ears. transients were smoothed out a bit. Yes! This is exactly what I heard, too. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 8, 2015 8:09:25 GMT -6
Thanks mrholmes, that was fun, and informative!
I wish you'd let it run for a few seconds more, I've noticed that all the reverbs had a really noticeable effect on how far back in the soundstage the vocal sat, and that would influence me a lot when choosing.
The RMX 16, and the EQWL reverbs did little or nothing for me, reminding me a little too much of reverb in a guitar amp, which is good if you want to sound like that I guess.
A while back, cowboycoalminer sent me a track, and I asked him where he recorded it, because it really sounded like it was done in a major league studio. It was one of the first times he'd used the Ocean Way plug. On this track, the Ocean Way again, sounded to me, like I was in a real room listening to the players live. That's a hell of an achievement I think. As soon as I can afford the extra cash, I'm getting one. Gotta get a new computer first though, ugh..
So far, ( not including the OW), the Bricasti felt the most like a room, but when compared to the Ocean Way, it still has that beautiful sheen and added energy a great digital reverb can impart. The Ocean Way just sounds like a room to me. I'd be thrilled to have both, but with even the OW being a budget stretch, it's more likely aliens will visit the white house before I get a Bricasti.
I kept my subscription to Stereophile, even though I haven't changed anything in my stereo system for over seven years, with the exception of getting a turntable. Bricasti is all over the high end audiophile market.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Sept 8, 2015 10:10:12 GMT -6
Are you still using that silverface apollo MJB or did you get a svart box?
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Post by joseph on Sept 8, 2015 12:25:20 GMT -6
Just to address realities again, the Bricasti is amazing from a technical/illusionary perspective, but not a magic box that can solve all practical issues.
I've said this already, but it won't fix early reflections in a shitty or hard sounding room, and it while it could stand in for some room fill mics, it definitely won't replace a well placed front of kit mic to glue the close mics.
So much of that sound is the mono reinforcement, plus the character of the mic itself. And that mic will pick up the room to some degree in a way distinct from the close mics. So the room better sound decent.
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Post by b1 on Sept 8, 2015 12:46:48 GMT -6
I heard the bricasti adding compression, actually. that's why it sounded more glued to my ears. transients were smoothed out a bit. Now we're getting into the nuts and bolts of the thing. The cat had to come outta the bag. My stereo plug has some compression after the reverb. It binds it all together and opens the space up. It can smear it if that's what you like, but the instrument becomes a part of a bigger space. This is just one element of my monitoring setup. More than one instance in addition. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 8, 2015 13:39:02 GMT -6
bannedchuck. I'm still on the silver Apollo Duo, planing to go to blackface Apollo, soon.
That's why I waited on the svartbox, Apollo's have better converters now, which might be all I need, so I'll see how that goes first, before thinking on different converters.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 8, 2015 16:08:38 GMT -6
That was a very interesting comparison. I was surprised how drastic the energy difference was for the song depending on the reverb used.
To my ears the Bricasti is dark and heavy, almost like the Sound City room sound or something, very neutral and dense. The 480L sounds a lot more aggressive and in your face, I got a lot more rock and roll vibe out of that one. I can see both of those being very useful for different sounds.
The Valhalla was a nice all arounder, just generally pleasant. The UAD Ocean Way had a cool vibe also. Some of the other ones didn't seem to fit too well.
I guess reverbs must be like guitar pedals, you gotta have a pile of them somewhere, and use one or two as your main jam. But you gotta get anal and get too many, and spend $3,400 on at least one of them, hahaha! I can't deny it, the Bricasti is a very GASSY sex beast. I bet if I had one I would not sell it. Which is insane, I have a very high guillotine rate with new gear, a lot of stuff gets the axe. I just think it must be a modern classic even though I've never owned one personally. But several of the other reverbs in this test sounded just as well, and they only cost a fraction of the Bricasti. That's a tough puzzle for the price they're asking. It's clearly one of the best, but damn, that's a lot of money.
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Post by wiz on Sept 8, 2015 16:51:59 GMT -6
Hey NoFilterChuckthanks for doing that mate... and.. its got ocean way... cool 8) Actually, thanks everyone for being a part of it.. especially those who are taking the time to treat the dry file and upload.. very very cool of you. Right then. Both EWQL and RMX 16 sound cool. The Ocean Way plug is so for to my mind, heading in the direction of what the Bricasti is doing, for the first time in any of these. Let me explain. Mostly I am interested in my own situation here, that is .. the dry mix. Thats what my room sounds like, with things recorded in it. Admittedly close mic'd. The Bricasti is the only one, to my ears ( i am gonna invent a acronym right now for that, so I don't have to keep writing a disclaimer.. its TME) ... 8) .... The Bricasti is the only one, that really doesn't mess with the original presentation of the sonic picture much at all, and if anything improves it... What you can't hear going on here, that the Brick does (he he another nick name) is when you pan something across the image, or when you put three elements up the centre. For example one of the main reasons I do LCR, is this issue. I can pan the snare, acoustic guitar and vocal up the middle, and they sit depth wise correctly with the Bricasti and somehow, it gives seperation, remove it, and you are reaching for the pan knob. I might have to at some time during the next year.. grab or borrow a UAD thingy and try the ocean way.. thanks again Cheers Wiz |
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