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Post by scumbum on Aug 30, 2015 19:18:35 GMT -6
I was experimenting with just a mono overhead and kick mic , and realized no matter what , if the kick mic is in front of the kick and the mono overhead mic is above the drums , the two mics will always be out of phase ??
That means you can choose to flip the phase on either mic but whichever one you phase reverse its gonna lose some punch because the speaker will be moving backwards instead of forwards .
From listening it seemed to sound best with the kick phase flipped and let the overhead with the snare be more punchy .
Is there a way to get a mono overhead and kick mic in phase together so I don't have to flip the phase and keep them both as punchy as possible ?
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Aug 30, 2015 19:39:11 GMT -6
phase is controlled by distance. sound travels 1' per ms. if your overhead is 4' from your kick mic, then that overhead mic signal will always be 4ms behind the kick mic. So, shift your overhead signal 4ms earlier if you want their peaks lined up to achieve maximum punch. This 4ms delay is what causes the comb filtering that makes you think you need to use the phase switch to fix it.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 30, 2015 19:48:30 GMT -6
just set the mic distances so that their phase cycles are rowing in the same direction(aka speaker pushing out from both mics)
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Post by scumbum on Aug 30, 2015 22:29:41 GMT -6
Ok , thanks for the tips , gonna try them ,
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 30, 2015 22:49:03 GMT -6
One way around the problem is putting the kick mike on the pedal side. The problem is simply that the bass drum heads can't be in two places at once and the pedal side of the bass drum is going to bleed into the overhead.
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Post by M57 on Aug 31, 2015 4:54:47 GMT -6
phase is controlled by distance. sound travels 1' per ms. if your overhead is 4' from your kick mic, then that overhead mic signal will always be 4ms behind the kick mic. So, shift your overhead signal 4ms earlier if you want their peaks lined up to achieve maximum punch. Complete stupid newbie observation.. But won't the other drum sounds will be as much as 8ms out of phase because you're moving other sounds from the kick mic that the overheads pick up "first" in the wrong direction? So I'm guessing this only works if you're gating the kick? |
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 31, 2015 5:01:53 GMT -6
The big issue is how relevant is it? For a single 2 mic setup the kick mic will have very little bleed. It's just a case of getting it to beef up the kick in a way you like. If the overhead is facing down above the kick it wont get much of the kick's midrange anyway, so the phasing won't be damaging much.
Out of curiosity, have you checked the polarity of your XLR's? If you're even in rough time alignment (i.e capsule same direction and same distance +/- 20cm) and you're getting heavy phasing, chances are one of the cables is flipping the polarity in the first place.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Aug 31, 2015 5:40:45 GMT -6
phase is controlled by distance. sound travels 1' per ms. if your overhead is 4' from your kick mic, then that overhead mic signal will always be 4ms behind the kick mic. So, shift your overhead signal 4ms earlier if you want their peaks lined up to achieve maximum punch. Complete stupid newbie observation.. But won't the other drum sounds will be as much as 8ms out of phase because you're moving other sounds from the kick mic that the overheads pick up "first" in the wrong direction? So I'm guessing this only works if you're gating the kick? He said kick, not drumkit, asshole. My statement is accurate. #semantics. don't be a douche. |
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Post by M57 on Aug 31, 2015 6:30:09 GMT -6
Complete stupid newbie observation.. But won't the other drum sounds will be as much as 8ms out of phase because you're moving other sounds from the kick mic that the overheads pick up "first" in the wrong direction? So I'm guessing this only works if you're gating the kick? He said kick, not drumkit, asshole. My statement is accurate. #semantics. don't be a douche. ?? Dude, there's no need to be rude. You assume I'm trying to challenge your statement, when in fact, I'm just trying to learn something. Questioning is my methodology. I'm not an engineer; I'm guessing you are, in which case it should be obvious to you when I don't know what I'm talking about. ..anyway, I read it right the first time.. "kick, not kit," so at the risk of exposing my total lack of understanding, can someone please explain to me the error of my logic. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 31, 2015 8:10:17 GMT -6
Yeah, Chuck, you misread that, M57 is tops, he's just asking a question bromee, it's all good.
the thing about drums and phase.., it's all relative, whenever you introduce more than a single mic something will be out of phase, a lot of people align ALL drums, which is a horrible sound to me, overheads= heck yes, but making other mics that are 3-5 feet away from a drum start at the same time as a mic that is 3-5 inches from a drum, makes exactly 0 sense to me logically and sonically, it certainly causes radical phase issues, and removes the depth that is created by the close mics. ex.. snare close mic properly arriving milliseconds before the distant mic'd overheads=depth and realism via spatial cues, it's critical when we mix that human ears/brains can image easily, unless of course your intention is to confuse.
The best way that i've found to deal with multi mic setups, is to try to get your mic distances to Jive and row in the same direction, look at the waveforms and make sure the positive part of the cycles are rising together relative to their distance and start times(never perfect), then use gates with as natural of settings as you can achieve, this way you will maintain a great natural sounding drum sound, with a whole bunch of punch and power.
JMO, YMMV
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Post by Ward on Aug 31, 2015 8:10:38 GMT -6
NoFilterChuck is rude. That's his charm. You'll get used to it. You'll learn to love him.
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 31, 2015 8:56:27 GMT -6
I think his misread and saw the part where you call yourself a noob as calling him a noob, M57. Honest mistake.
I agree with Tony about aligning mics - why bother having the engineer put them time into positioning them if they're gonna get time aligned after the fact? But I don't gate unless it's a genre specific effect. I'd rather just out the rest for the tom hits if it doesn't sound good. Sometimes an expander on the room or overhead mics keyed to the snare is good though, if you want a louder snare that's still quite roomy.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 31, 2015 9:02:02 GMT -6
While it sounds like a great idea, I've had very very mixed results from time aligning drums in the computer.
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Post by jimwilliams on Aug 31, 2015 9:16:23 GMT -6
If you high pass the overheads there is little kick leakage outside of the click and that can be controlled with softer beaters.
Remember the 3 to 1 rule: that helps the timing difference comb filtering. If the overheads pick up the kick at 1/3 or less level, those 'problems' sort themselves out.
Funny how we never even thought about this 40 years ago. Seems those records came out ok.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 31, 2015 9:17:17 GMT -6
Used to do it religiously, haven't bothered in 15 years. Follow accepted ancient multi-mic rules in the first place and it's not a concern. Check mic placement in mono before committing. Ignore gee-wiz fix-it gimmick tools until you know you have a problem, once it's too late to fix it, never ever think of them up front.
Chuck might have got his first infraction.
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Post by b1 on Aug 31, 2015 9:31:55 GMT -6
I think that's the typical greeting and salutation at the mailbox in Chuck's part of New Yawk...
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Post by Ward on Aug 31, 2015 9:45:29 GMT -6
While it sounds like a great idea, I've had very very mixed results from time aligning drums in the computer. I could not agree more. We've had going on 100 years of recording and not stopped to time-align drum tracks. Well, it wasn't possible for most of that time. No one ever complained about the drums not being time aligned. IT's the sound we're used to and it provides depth to the sound. I've found in most instances, when you time align the overheads to either the toms, snare or kick position, you lose 'space'. The same goes for time-aligning room mics. I like that bit of minute delay in there. it adds to the ambience, the space, the tone of the kit. |
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Post by M57 on Aug 31, 2015 10:24:14 GMT -6
Used to do it religiously, haven't bothered in 15 years. Follow accepted ancient multi-mic rules in the first place and it's not a concern. Check mic placement in mono before committing. Ignore gee-wiz fix-it gimmick tools until you know you have a problem, once it's too late to fix it, never ever think of them up front. Chuck might have got his first infraction. Nah.. if he understood my 'noob' comment as being directed toward him, then he would be justified in putting me in my place.. I've got pretty thick skin, and being from the Boston area (kinda-sorta), I can handle a NY salutation. |
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Post by dandeurloo on Aug 31, 2015 10:29:51 GMT -6
You can only really have one drum in phase. Pick the Kick or pick the SNR. The other one will be out of phase. Most people set phase to the SNR.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 31, 2015 10:30:55 GMT -6
Yeah, chill out, NoFilterChuck. He was referring to himself, not you. An apology would be nice. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 31, 2015 10:49:55 GMT -6
High-passing the overheads really castrates the drum sound. I avoid high-passing because it usually screws something else up.
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Post by scumbum on Aug 31, 2015 11:07:54 GMT -6
So am I hearing things right ? Because a mono overhead and kick mic seem to sound much more punchy than a typical multi mic setup . I'm putting the overhead by the drummers head so it picks up what the drummer is hearing . I then put a stereo reverb on it to fool you into thinking its stereo drums .
This simple setup seems to sound a little better than multi mics to me . More punch , transients and focus .
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Post by EmRR on Aug 31, 2015 11:21:15 GMT -6
I'll high pass overheads at something like 40-80Hz at times. Making sure it doesn't hurt the kick or bottom of a floor tom, usually it helps the very bottom in my room. Nothing like the guys I know who filter OH's in the 500-1K range, which seems to be a common approach.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 31, 2015 11:23:00 GMT -6
While we're going there, remember, mono sounds better out of one speaker. Turn the other one off! : ) It's true!
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 31, 2015 11:51:27 GMT -6
It depends on the stereo technique you compare it to and the mics in question. The reason I think Mono is considered punchier is so much stuff ends up off axis in AB and XY that the frequency response can vary wildly across the stereo field depending on the mics. Particularly condensers. You'd lose nothing having a side mic and making your Mono setup an M/S pair. The centre would sound the same.
In general I like non-coincident techniques when the mix has a lot of stuff up the middle. For a rock thing with hard panned guitars, that may or may not work. But it really depends how you're approaching everything, rather than just the drums.
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