Mono Overhead & Kick - Can they ever be in phase together ??

What can I say? I agree.

One more bit, and I'll leave the topic alone...

I use eq and high-pass filtering only when I need to, and avoid them wherever possible, particularly the latter. Low-pass is different because I feel groups and drums tend to work well built on foundation from the ground up, not the top down. Digital recording at high sample rates can really benefit from LPF and more serious shelf cuts that go down more gently or musically into the audible range, like with cymbals or condensers on guitar amps or synthesis or to counteract a bell boost. The resonance tends to sounds better to me and doesn't affect the midrange like a hpf often does. 

But I like rhythm guitars to have body and drums built from the FOK, room mics or overheads.

Like Svart said, I try to focus more on mic selection, placement and shock mounting.

I use aggressive filtering only as a last resort when I fucked something up. I don't boost highs as a matter of course either, as it pulls on the midrange, and with condensers there are usually plenty highs without tape in the cymbals and vocals.

Rest and any full mix sweetening I'd rather trust to mastering engineer with experience about what matters, and full range system.

Whether we're discussing the sub or supersonic frequencies--it's almost always less about their absence as the side effects of the filters that remove them.

There's nothing usefull below 50 or above 22khz....AND it's usually compromising to the audio pass filter them out. I can show you an 88.2 and 44.1 that have differences as low as 4khz. Effect of the 22khz decimation filter. Same way I can show you a 75hz HPF on a mic causing ugly sibilance--but, no one thinks that some sub sonic rumble is the cure for sibilance.

"It's the filter, stupid."

At first, moving to software mixing, I was loving linear phase pass filters....as they don't have the SAME side effects as traditional designs....until I started noticing they simply traded them for a different set of side effects. So--if you NEED to pass filter, you really need to try both and see which is less compromising to the program material.

Obviously YMMV.

Yeah, and this is MOST true when the drummer has good technique.  So many don't!  I swear it seem like the reason multi-mic technique came in at times.  So many cymbal bashers who touch the toms like it's a dainty china teacup they worry might shatter.   "hey man, can you turn up my toms?"   

I mean, really. The best sounding work I ever do is a stereo pair on an entire band, spending the time to orchestrate and arrange the music for the stereo pair. Duh.

What pairs are your go-tos?

I have yet to do this on anything but acoustic ensemble.

It's not mutually exclusive to say they harm a signal AND use them because not using them harms the bigger picture more.

I'm simply saying that pass filters do more than filter out frequencies above or below. I'm not saying they aren't necessary at times....I'm not saying don't use them when they do more good than harm....but, to explain the above discrepancies where people feel it's a "myth" that there's nothing useful "down there", which is usually true--but, believe that because filtering out "down there" sounds worse than not. Or the constant belief that 44.1 is all we need because we don't hear over 22khz anyway....

And no--I never track bands where the instruments are all in one room. It's been a long time since I tracked bands at all.

If i don't want any color from a filter, i use the fabfilter proQ2 in linear phase mode, i have an instance on every single channel in my templates(mac beast), i don't use them on low freq, sharper transient instruments(kick, funk bass etc) because the pre ringing artifacts, I use them to clean up the tracks as transparently as possible to save voltage and woofer waste, I can definitevly say that even in linear phase mode i hear the eq, not much at all, but it's definitely there. If i ever find an eq/filter that can pull off transparent in an absolutely transparent way, i'll be beyond stoked to have them. But for the most part, i honestly feel a good character HP filter is priceless,
   I'm a drummer 1st and foremost, in the past I've used a mono overhead, and a FOK mono mic ad nauseum and to good effect, I always HP both. I absolutely love the Glyn Johns technique, it's my go to, i've always used HP on every track. I love big open tuned drums mic'd minimally and with distance, and with my new personally built drum rig, i was lucky enough to get an endorsement with paiste, so I got to hand pick all of my cymbals at their headquarters in brea cali, they are a combo of giant beat, and 2002 thins with 15" hi hats and a 24" ride, big and thin, hit and out the way, awesome for recording. I'm now flirting with as close to a Bonham style sound as anyone i've ever heard with this setup, that is the Holy grail drum sound to me and i'm about there! and i will be using HP filters on every track when i lay it down for the first time(on our pal Levons project). HP filters are such an absolute must for me that I'm going to be putting HP/LP Harrison filters into all 38 of my input channel strips on my console, with hard bypass on both individually, i need to check out EmRR's findings, and talk to JW a bit about implementation, but it's going to happen.

My favorite filter for bass instruments lately is the UAD Little Labs VOG "Voice Of God." It's a resonant high pass filter, so you can get a lot of cut, along with a strong and narrow boost just where you want it, right above the low cut. This way you can clean up the low end a bit while still getting some power going at the right frequency. It's really easy to dial in as well.

But I'm also a low end lover and tend not to filter too much, unless there's excessive proximity effect or something like that. Usually I'm boosting stuff down there with Pultec shelves.

I use low pass filters all the time but more for synth music, since that's one of the major components of traditional subtractive synthesis, and electronic production in general. They don't come up quite as often for me in rock but I like a nice Pultec high shelf cut on the master bus sometimes, or a UAD Ampex tape machine doing more or less the same thing.

I side with those who tend not to get too tweaky with drum phase and track timing. As long as things are grossly in phase you can usually work from there and it sounds fine. I've also never had too many successes with tweaking these ad nauseum. It gets different but not necessarily better. I might gently high pass the overheads if the material calls for it, or heavily filter and gate the toms if the bleed is ugly. Sometimes a more cut up sound is better suited to a track than a natural one. I'm sure that genre is a factor there.

I like minimal drum miking but I always seem to need the close mics, especially the tom mics, to get everything where you can hear it properly. I would have a hard time just forgetting about the tom mics for most recordings, they just seem essential to me. Sometimes it's fun just to go punk rock though and put up one or two mics and just go for it. You lose a lot of control in mix balancing but that is such a cool sound. I like the idea of just committing to a sound, it makes for a simpler mix.

I guess my favorite place to get creative with trap set engineering is the overhead and room mic arrays. There are just so many variations on how to set those up, including using 3 or more overheads or however many room mics, or near the kit mics, underheads, whatever you call them. It's also really cool to cram mics right up in the middle of all the shells, you can capture the heart of the kit this way and get a lot of your sound from just that one mic.

The biggest lesson for me in the beginning was probably just to escape the idea that there's one right way to mic a kit. There are so many viable possibilities it's best not to be stuck in a box. You can get as creative as you need to, as minimal or maximal as you want.

I'm sure I don't have as much experience as a lot of you guys recording drums so I love reading these threads. I love drums.

FWIW all linear phase filters suffer from pre-echo. Another problem with high pass filters is they can increase peak level and distortion without creating any increase in perceived volume.

It's important to always ask and then listen for "What am I screwing up?" Listen to all filter and eq. settings in the context of a mix and never make judgements on a solo'd track.

Harrison Ford Filters, don't know if the boards have hit another run with in/out polarity fixed.  Pay attention to it, as well if you are skipping the in/out buffer chips.  

This is a zany thought.

I wonder if those who like LPF's while eschewing HPF's predominantly use condensers, and those who like HPF's while eschewing LPF's predominantly use dynamics/ribbons? As a big broad nasty generality, of course it's not that clear cut.

I don't use many condensers, they mostly sit in their boxes. Usually ribbons on guitar amps, OH's, room mics, vocals. My input path is virtually all pre-1970 tube and transistor too. Pre-filtered and shaped if you will, not much call for a LPF on much of anything, yet plenty going on well above 30K. Big emphasis on fundamental frequencies, ribbons working from resonant point at the bottom of the curve, more sensitivity and call for HPF's?

Feel free to ignore, thinking out loud. Could be a bad habit.

I had the same thought earlier in the thread reading your comments.  I have a pretty good understanding of what you are regularly using and most guys even with a good amount of gear are not set up like you.  You have a very unique set of gear and that has to lead to different set of problems/solutions and processes from most everyone else who doesn't have such an vintage locker of gear. 

BTW, HPF are good.  haha




 

Right or wrong, this is where obsession gets you.

It's kinda hard to check out my rig, website is grossly out of date, and I took down the equipment list, deciding it's just an ego trip and a thieves shopping list.   It's never served any purpose to put it out there.