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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 17, 2015 13:45:27 GMT -6
I'm not trying to start a war, but I guess I just wanted to try and state a case that every modern mix isn't terrible and every classic one fantastic. For instance: Pink - itun.es/us/11HGG?i=545398138The Who - itun.es/us/7JMN3?i=933128447Now, I agree that the Pink song is a too slammed (is that kick being smashed by mastering or was that the intended sound?) but to me, the difference in the two shows the difference in the amazing technology we have at our disposal. Listen to how wide it is in comparison. Maybe I'm just focusing on one mediocore mix in comparison to a better one. For instance: Sounds great Paul Simon - itun.es/us/UN1Rw?i=380590584Not so much Linkin Park - itun.es/us/YS0FF?i=528437411Just throwing it out there... |
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Post by b1 on Aug 17, 2015 14:33:01 GMT -6
Put up yer dukes!
I agree. There's a mixture of good & bad throughout history. I think a good song recorded/mixed/mastered poorly in the past was equalized by how great the song was, unless it was Grand Funks early live album; which was great music destroyed by the numbskull manager who was clueless about recording. But today's great song can be destroyed by poor techniques throughout the progressive stages... IMO. Still, I'll suffer through smashed stuff to hear a great modern-ish tune.
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Post by drsax on Aug 17, 2015 14:47:05 GMT -6
There are those in the industry, past and present who have devoted themselves to excellent sounding recordings and mixes, and those that haven't. The ones that have chosen excellence are the ones I try to emulate and learn from. Guys who consistently put out great sounding stuff, ie, Bob Clearmountain, Bruce Swedien, Bill Schnee. Serban Ghea, etc.. Good is good whether it's new or old! And it's good whether it's analog or well done digital. I'm a modern guy mostly, but unfortunately well done material isn't as common as it once was.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 17, 2015 15:30:54 GMT -6
John, who knows where they got some of those iTunes mixes from. Quadrophenia, when you listened to the LP sounded great, if memory serves. I thought the Pink track was just all edge, same with Linkin Park, except the engineer or producer clearly understands how to use compressors. They all sounded flat to me, so I don't trust iTunes as a reference, at least not in these cases.
Classics became that mainly because of the strength of the material. I was at a concert in Lincoln Center last week, it featured the Watkins Family Hour. They played maybe a 30 minute set, and then began bring out out guest star vocalists. They were performing all the songs from Bob Dylan's Highway 61, they were having a 50th Anniversary celebration of it. Among a half dozen top shelf session guys was Belmont Tench on keys,and the legendary Al Kooper on keys who spoke about the sessions. As they songs progressed, every one had a unique power, and the momentum shifted, the excitement grew, and you began to really feel the impact of truly great music, instead of some very good music.
So, I think classics usually became classic because the music was special. I don't think the sound mattered that much. What did matter I think, is all of them were listed to from record players. Vinyl somehow connects you in a much deeper and personal way than any digital format I've heard yet. SACD comes close..
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Post by mobeach on Aug 17, 2015 16:21:09 GMT -6
I've always thought the production in that Linkin Park song was great. A mixture of electronic and acoustic drums, guitar mixed in the back then booming up front a second later. That's pretty much how they do things, but some songs are better than others.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 17, 2015 16:24:54 GMT -6
on quick listen, the pink sounds like a crushed face/hands against the glass, grainy mess to me, the who mixes have more depth and are way more interesting and listenable, i don't feel like someone is screaming at me like the pink, how does anyone believe that is something a listener wants? btw, neither are hifi imo. linkin park is like the pink except even worse, it doesn't breathe at all, it's just plastered against the glass, the quiet is the same level as the loud, 0 dynamics really sucks for listening. edit; look at the DR rating on this LP fried turd dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Linkin%20Park |
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Post by formatcyes on Aug 17, 2015 16:39:22 GMT -6
0 dynamics really sucks for listening. Just got back from a skiing trip 7 hour's on the road with some youngen's in the car. 0 dynamics is like a cheese grater to the ears, some of the music is really good but just not pleasant to listen to which is kind of what music is for its just so  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 17, 2015 16:48:16 GMT -6
Maybe I just have different opinions than most.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 17, 2015 17:05:48 GMT -6
Just to be clear, I acknowledge the expertise a mix like Linking Park's takes. There are dozens of details that a top mixer uses in plain sight there. That said, I still think it sucks compared to a classic record. Put on something like Steve Still's solo album, now you've got everything there, dynamics. depth, size, intimacy, world class playing, and great, great songwriting.
It's not about my taste either. I can listen to something way out of my comfort zone and still appreciate it. Granted, I'm not the audience these modern tracks are made for. I guess you gotta scream at kids to make them listen sometimes..
Classics can still be made, check this out, it's already almost 20 years back, probably done on the cheap, a reissue I think..but it could've been done yesterday..
Whiskeytown Tennessee Square
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 17, 2015 17:55:52 GMT -6
Most of the stuff CLA mixes is not my taste, but I am pretty sure the mixes meet the needs of the clients.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 17, 2015 18:02:55 GMT -6
Most of the stuff CLA mixes is not my taste, but I am pretty sure the mixes meet the needs of the clients. much in the way a plastic surgeon meets the needs of his/her client, it doesn't matter that they look like ass, their need is fulfilled 8) |
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Post by b1 on Aug 17, 2015 18:12:05 GMT -6
I'm not a fan of compressor gluing, except in limited cases. Nor am I of smashing the wave form at any point. JMO. It stops being musical at the point of the latter and becomes bad engineering - even though a piece is well written. Don't radio jocks bump the levels up anyway? At least they did, but I don't think they couldn't get away with it too much these days except for standard amplification. I don't really know what they do - haven't listened for any length of time for awhile.
I didn't need to listen to the Linkin Park stuff. I like some of their arrangements and videos, but I don't own any of their music and haven't heard all of their stuff. I can't listen to it that much at a time, only a few times on YouTube. The same with Cold Play and Foo Fighters. A little bit here and there. After a while, I want to hear something better.
I don't understand some of the new engineering. It's like no one can think for themselves or are trying to please a brain-dead industry. If enough good well mastered mixes got out in public, I think the smeared, smashed, and distorted stuff would eventually fall by the wayside.
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Post by mobeach on Aug 17, 2015 18:29:10 GMT -6
What's everyone's thoughts regarding Carry on Wayward Son?, with that thick reverb on the lead vox? it sounds like he's singing inside a cavern.
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Post by geoff738 on Aug 17, 2015 18:42:01 GMT -6
I don't understand some of the new engineering. It's like no one can think for themselves or are trying to please a brain-dead industry. If enough good well mastered mixes got out in public, I think the smeared, smashed, and distorted stuff would eventually fall by the wayside. I dunno. Does it make any difference if it's streamed to a phone and listened to on a pair of Beats phones? I think the stuff aimed at a mass market audience (ie. not to old turds like me) is gonna continue to be a smeary, slammed mess. But there is a lot of newish stuff that sounds great. I just don't think it's the stuff that is going to get a push at radio or whatever. And, a lot of classic stuff in reality isn't mixed all that great. Or perhaps I should add the caveat that it isn't mixed all that well in the context of a "modern" mix. Plus I think back in the sixties and seventies they may have been doing copious substances. Cheers, Geoff |
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Post by b1 on Aug 17, 2015 18:59:52 GMT -6
I don't understand some of the new engineering. It's like no one can think for themselves or are trying to please a brain-dead industry. If enough good well mastered mixes got out in public, I think the smeared, smashed, and distorted stuff would eventually fall by the wayside. I dunno. Does it make any difference if it's streamed to a phone and listened to on a pair of Beats phones? I don't think the younger population mass would know the difference. They don't really have a point of reference other than smeared or distorted Synth Bass.I think the stuff aimed at a mass market audience (ie. not to old turds like me) is gonna continue to be a smeary, slammed mess. I agree. It's there until a meteor wipes it all out or a renaissance.But there is a lot of newish stuff that sounds great. I just don't think it's the stuff that is going to get a push at radio or whatever. I think you're right.And, a lot of classic stuff in reality isn't mixed all that great. Or perhaps I should add the caveat that it isn't mixed all that well in the context of a "modern" mix. The first few times I heard some older stuff, I would think of a few changes that could be done, but it eventually grew on me. Maybe that's what goes on today with some listeners.
In general, I do think I would take some older mixes over a large percentage of new stuff. Some of the new cookie cutter stuff I can leave completely alone.Plus I think back in the sixties and seventies they may have been doing copious substances. Well, acid rock was aptly named.Cheers, Geoff Aloha!
Tim
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Post by b1 on Aug 17, 2015 19:07:42 GMT -6
Here's a track from around '65 or so, that I've always run to after too much other stuff:
Waylon Jennings - Rush Street Blues (Originally Mono)
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Post by mobeach on Aug 17, 2015 19:09:36 GMT -6
The music industry was much smaller in the 60's and 70's. There was probably a solid pool of engineers and producers to draw from. Solid ones are still out there but there's also a multitude of others with home ProTools studios. Linkin Park's producer is Rick Rubin so I'm not sure why he would put something out there that would draw the negative comments I've seen here, unless that's the sound he was looking for. He certainly didn't get the same results with Johnny Cash, Tom Petty or Red Hot Chili Peppers.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 17, 2015 19:16:17 GMT -6
What's everyone's thoughts regarding Carry on Wayward Son?, with that thick reverb on the lead vox? it sounds like he's singing inside a cavern. i don't think the verb is cavernous at all on that tune, you sure everything is wired in phase on your rig? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 17, 2015 19:18:56 GMT -6
The music industry was much smaller in the 60's and 70's. There was probably a solid pool of engineers and producers to draw from. Solid ones are still out there but there's also a multitude of others with home ProTools studios. Linkin Park's producer is Rick Rubin so I'm not sure why he would put something out there that would draw the negative comments I've seen here, unless that's the sound he was looking for. He certainly didn't get the same results with Johnny Cash, Tom Petty or Red Hot Chili Peppers. I like a lot of what he's done, but Rubin gave into the paradigm |
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 17, 2015 19:30:10 GMT -6
Most of the stuff CLA mixes is not my taste, but I am pretty sure the mixes meet the needs of the clients. much in the way a plastic surgeon meets the needs of his/her client, it doesn't matter that they look like ass, their need is fulfilled 8) LOL yes, maybe I thought.... man that sounds overprocessed.... But hej who I am? This dude gets a big paycheck for the way he is doeing it. My gueswork was that clients come back - because of this overprocessed sound? Its all death magnetic.....lol |
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Post by popmann on Aug 17, 2015 19:54:05 GMT -6
Where are you hearing modern mixes?
You're linking DR5 masters.
My experience if that modern mixes are mostly the same as they've ever been outside of hard rock--with two exceptions: more vocal compression and less vocal reverb/delay--both ways that modern mix engineers deal with the now assumption that it will be crushed in mastering. Think about it--a DR13 mix will literally make the reverb 8db louder than the mix engineer intended, so you barely put it in or bury it knowing it will come up in the joke that is modern mastering.
I think a good way to hear this is the latest Jonatha Brooke. I got to her before she had Ludwig master it.....pleading he leave it in double digits.....they did--but, you can hear Clearmoutain CREAMED her vocal in the mix so it would survive. Had he known Ludwig was going to be instructed to make it sound it's best, which is never DR5.....he wouldn't have plastered her vocals. See his work on Ten Cent Wings (97'ish) which was her first with "the Bobs" and her last mastered in double digits.
Also, if you want to compare Paul Simon to Pink, use her more stylistically appropriate side project:
I just mastered something for a freind....I gave him two masters. A DR13 that I did analog in high rez and sounds lovely--just like his mix, polished to a fine presentation....and a DR8 fifteen minute master than sounds more like everything coming out now. It's easy to see why they do it--it's an immediate "wow factor" and takes no time compared to actually polishing while retaining the musical and mix dynamic range. It's not close which I would choose to use.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 17, 2015 20:56:38 GMT -6
Where are you hearing modern mixes? You're linking DR5 masters. My experience if that modern mixes are mostly the same as they've ever been outside of hard rock--with two exceptions: more vocal compression and less vocal reverb/delay--both ways that modern mix engineers deal with the now assumption that it will be crushed in mastering. Think about it--a DR13 mix will literally make the reverb 8db louder than the mix engineer intended, so you barely put it in or bury it knowing it will come up in the joke that is modern mastering. I think a good way to hear this is the latest Jonatha Brooke. I got to her before she had Ludwig master it.....pleading he leave it in double digits.....they did--but, you can hear Clearmoutain CREAMED her vocal in the mix so it would survive. Had he known Ludwig was going to be instructed to make it sound it's best, which is never DR5.....he wouldn't have plastered her vocals. See his work on Ten Cent Wings (97'ish) which was her first with "the Bobs" and her last mastered in double digits. Also, if you want to compare Paul Simon to Pink, use her more stylistically appropriate side project: I just mastered something for a freind....I gave him two masters. A DR13 that I did analog in high rez and sounds lovely--just like his mix, polished to a fine presentation....and a DR8 fifteen minute master than sounds more like everything coming out now. It's easy to see why they do it--it's an immediate "wow factor" and takes no time compared to actually polishing while retaining the musical and mix dynamic range. It's not close which I would choose to use. So Bob Ludwig mastered a Bob Clearmountain mix, and Clearmountain didn't know he was going to do it? who the F dropped the ball on that? Wow! I'd fire everyone in sight if my career was riding on that level of incompetence!! |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Aug 18, 2015 2:40:16 GMT -6
There are great modern mixes and old mixes that suck ! We just seam to hear more productions that suck in the mainstream now so sad!
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Aug 18, 2015 2:43:53 GMT -6
Where are you hearing modern mixes? You're linking DR5 masters. My experience if that modern mixes are mostly the same as they've ever been outside of hard rock--with two exceptions: more vocal compression and less vocal reverb/delay--both ways that modern mix engineers deal with the now assumption that it will be crushed in mastering. Think about it--a DR13 mix will literally make the reverb 8db louder than the mix engineer intended, so you barely put it in or bury it knowing it will come up in the joke that is modern mastering. I think a good way to hear this is the latest Jonatha Brooke. I got to her before she had Ludwig master it.....pleading he leave it in double digits.....they did--but, you can hear Clearmoutain CREAMED her vocal in the mix so it would survive. Had he known Ludwig was going to be instructed to make it sound it's best, which is never DR5.....he wouldn't have plastered her vocals. See his work on Ten Cent Wings (97'ish) which was her first with "the Bobs" and her last mastered in double digits. Also, if you want to compare Paul Simon to Pink, use her more stylistically appropriate side project: I just mastered something for a freind....I gave him two masters. A DR13 that I did analog in high rez and sounds lovely--just like his mix, polished to a fine presentation....and a DR8 fifteen minute master than sounds more like everything coming out now. It's easy to see why they do it--it's an immediate "wow factor" and takes no time compared to actually polishing while retaining the musical and mix dynamic range. It's not close which I would choose to use. m Feel in love with Jonnaha Brooks back in 2000 her and Kim Richey did a gig my protege mixed at the Club Taveren, my wife was a Fan of Kim's and I figured anybody Neil Finn would sing with was worth seeing ! Damn I miss the days of not having to pay to see a live show! |
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Post by mobeach on Aug 18, 2015 4:30:43 GMT -6
What's everyone's thoughts regarding Carry on Wayward Son?, with that thick reverb on the lead vox? it sounds like he's singing inside a cavern. i don't think the verb is cavernous at all on that tune, you sure everything is wired in phase on your rig? I only really hear it on my car radio, so yes  |
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