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Post by jazznoise on Aug 18, 2015 7:46:52 GMT -6
I just mastered something for a freind....I gave him two masters. A DR13 that I did analog in high rez and sounds lovely--just like his mix, polished to a fine presentation....and a DR8 fifteen minute master than sounds more like everything coming out now. It's easy to see why they do it--it's an immediate "wow factor" and takes no time compared to actually polishing while retaining the musical and mix dynamic range. It's not close which I would choose to use. Agreed. I think a big factor in the low DR of modern mixs and mastering is the economics. It wows the consumer and it's really fast. Sequencing a record becomes faster, getting all the instrument to sit together is faster since they're all squashed and filtered into place. People are now doing a few songs a day for mixing, albums get mastered in a few hours. There's very little time to do much else. I do find my mixes tend to fall between DR 11-9 depending on the style and instrumentation. If they want it louder I guess I'd probably end up pushing to 8 or 7. I guess doing contemporary music that's not a big deal, but if I was working with a folk or jazz group I'd be reticent. I did some world music stuff for a documentary last year and I think the only comp used was a multiband to help tame a malevolent cowbell player. But I think that's where music divides - there's a philosophical approach where some styles see the "mix" as part of the music and some don't. For some they want to hear the processing, they want there to be extra things like distorted room mics or crazy autopan or pitch shifting delays. For others if you can notice something has been 'tweaked' then they feel the mix is starting to overshadow the music. Both legitimate, in my view, but very different. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 18, 2015 8:06:40 GMT -6
Semi off topic, but relevant. How much of the distortion that we're hearing in mixes is coming from crushing in mastering vs. artistic decisions in mixing?
This new Hozier song is a nice tune, but the dirt on the vocals seems like a wrong decision to me. There is just too much to my ears. Do you guys think this is from crushing during mastering or they just slapped a bit too much decapitator on the vocals?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 18, 2015 8:45:44 GMT -6
I'm fairly certain they put it on there, all the instruments have that grit right from the start. I don't mind it on the instruments, but if I was producing, I'd have chosen a cleaner vocal. The grit should come from the voice.
I'm guilty of this infraction myself. I get too close to the mic, pertly because I feel mine needs a little more bottom, and there's a couple of huge motors underneathe me where I record, and when the gain is set high, the mic picks it up, so I move in a little and set the gain a click lower.
Hozier has a strong voice too, so it's pushing the distortion when he hits harder.
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 18, 2015 10:41:47 GMT -6
Does the distortion on that not sound like it has a little bit of the dry signal mixed back in?
I agree that I don't think it works, but usually the idea with this stuff is to get the DR as close to single digits as possible way before the M. Engineer even touches it. They're only going to be able to squish it another 2 or 3dB before it's gonna require heavy converter clipping, so the Mixer probably was doing Mr. Hosier a favor.
I know he's Irish and I should take pride since so few of us get through to the mainstream, but I just don't dig his work. Hats off to him all the same.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 18, 2015 10:44:54 GMT -6
I must be the biggest PITA ever haha, i feel like my monitors are broken when i'm listening to this? It's a 1080P file, How can it be that the bottom end is so shoved up between the speakers, and it has no punch or impact whatsoever? this tune would certainly benefit from some hifi clarity and midbass punch, seriously, that grainy digital hash is objectionable and objectively ugly, wtf is going on? i can't believe half the shit i hear lately.... i better check my monitors for leaky capacitors  |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 18, 2015 11:16:26 GMT -6
I know what you mean Tony, this is a good song, good singer, saddled with an unnecessary "modern" production. Everything's gimmicky these days. It usually goes in cycles though, so sooner or later, it'll turn around. Hopefully sooner than later.
This crap has me hooked in too, I'm sad to say. I keep mixing for this audience, when I know better. It's a hard habit to break.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 18, 2015 11:47:39 GMT -6
regardless of mindset, this type of production will definitively NOT make someone more inclined to listen to your music, all things being equal, it will cause them to shut it off before it will inspire them to listen, check page 9 of vickers AES article www.sfxmachine.com/docs/loudnesswar/loudness_war.pdf |
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Post by b1 on Aug 18, 2015 11:57:36 GMT -6
Semi off topic, but relevant. How much of the distortion that we're hearing in mixes is coming from crushing in mastering vs. artistic decisions in mixing? This new Hozier song is a nice tune, but the dirt on the vocals seems like a wrong decision to me. There is just too much to my ears. Do you guys think this is from crushing during mastering or they just slapped a bit too much decapitator on the vocals? I made it to 1:40 on the second listen. I can't image at what point the AE's said: "OK, that sounds good - now we're getting somewhere!". You know if that were live, it would be as dynamic as all get out. It died a sure death after the hands of fate spilled their magic potion on it. I don't know why I keep thinking people might actually like their music clean and natural on the whole. They might like it if exposed to it more often, and probably start rejecting the grainy stuff. So the artist approved it at some point !?! |
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Post by b1 on Aug 18, 2015 12:10:17 GMT -6
regardless of mindset, this type of production will definitively NOT make someone more inclined to listen to your music, all things being equal, it will cause them to shut it off before it will inspire them to listen, check page 9 of vickers AES article www.sfxmachine.com/docs/loudnesswar/loudness_war.pdfA great quote from that article: "Given the incredible technological advances of the last half-century, one might expect that by now we should live in a musical paradise, with a thriving music industry and recordings of amazing depth, texture and dynamic range. Instead, the industry is in decline and “we’re making popular music recordings that have no more dynamic range than a 1909 Edison Cylinder!” I'm serious. I think this is a plot against humanity. A part of the same plan that has reduced the attention span of most people. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 18, 2015 12:30:02 GMT -6
Agreed B1, it's like there's a global idiot contest underway, and almost everyone is competing for 1st prize! You see, idiots are easy to part with their $, that's the negative side of capitalism, the self serving powers that be(monied folk) benefit from people being too stupid to know they're getting hosed(see below, this gem is selling on itunes  ). They don't care that it doesn't bode well for our country's longevity, stupid society's fall at the hands of smarter ones, wash, rinse, repeat. Now get off my lawn you damn kidds! |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 18, 2015 12:42:49 GMT -6
Agreed B1, it's like there's a global idiot contest underway, and almost everyone is competing for 1st prize! You see, idiots are easy to part with their $, that's the negative side of capitalism, the self serving powers that be(monied folk) benefit from people being too stupid to know they're getting hosed(see below, this gem is selling on itunes ). They don't care that it doesn't bode well for our country's longevity, stupid society's fall at the hands of smarter ones, wash, rinse, repeat. Now get off my lawn you damn kidds! Obviously, this is a joke song. Probably not the best example to make your point with. Haha. |
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Post by b1 on Aug 18, 2015 12:44:22 GMT -6
Agreed B1, it's like there's a global idiot contest underway, and almost everyone is competing for 1st prize! You see, idiots are easy to part with their $, that's the negative side of capitalism, the self serving powers that be(monied folk) benefit from people being too stupid to know they're getting hosed(see below, this gem is selling on itunes ). They don't care that it doesn't bode well for our country's longevity, stupid society's fall at the hands of smarter ones, wash, rinse, repeat. Now get off my lawn you damn kidds! I think that's plan 9 from outer space... This "culture" insures that the next generation (if any survives) will be at a lower rung on the ladder. This does portray an actual plot against the net fed generation. |
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Post by b1 on Aug 18, 2015 12:46:20 GMT -6
This used to be a whole one part lecture by Bob Katz, but now sliced into multiple parts:
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 18, 2015 13:47:25 GMT -6
To give context, I'm aware that this artist was forced to spend a year after being signed just writing tunes. I think they said he wrote like 40 + songs and demo'd them all out completely. And then they made him re-record everything they wanted, the way they wanted and mixed the way they wanted. It's taken a lot of work, but I think it gives context to think of this as an artist who already had his creative control taken away from him before he even got paid.
Bob Katz is great. Wish I had half the brain he did!
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Aug 18, 2015 13:47:49 GMT -6
all of the dirty loops stuff from their album Loopified sounds amaze-balls. you should reference that stuff when selecting modern mixes :-D
definitely my favorite tune right now.
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Post by formatcyes on Aug 18, 2015 15:09:41 GMT -6
Agreed B1, it's like there's a global idiot contest underway, and almost everyone is competing for 1st prize! You see, idiots are easy to part with their $, that's the negative side of capitalism, the self serving powers that be(monied folk) benefit from people being too stupid to know they're getting hosed(see below, this gem is selling on itunes ). They don't care that it doesn't bode well for our country's longevity, stupid society's fall at the hands of smarter ones, wash, rinse, repeat. Now get off my lawn you damn kidds! I think we are all involved in a global village idiot contest. The idiots have well and truly taken over. Embrace your inner village idiot you know you want to  |
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Post by swurveman on Aug 18, 2015 16:02:25 GMT -6
Does the distortion on that not sound like it has a little bit of the dry signal mixed back in? I agree that I don't think it works, but usually the idea with this stuff is to get the DR as close to single digits as possible way before the M. Engineer even touches it. They're only going to be able to squish it another 2 or 3dB before it's gonna require heavy converter clipping, so the Mixer probably was doing Mr. Hosier a favor. I know he's Irish and I should take pride since so few of us get through to the mainstream, but I just don't dig his work. Hats off to him all the same. Sounds to me like somebody did a really shitty job with a C4 on his vocal. |
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Post by wiz on Aug 18, 2015 16:21:59 GMT -6
Semi off topic, but relevant. How much of the distortion that we're hearing in mixes is coming from crushing in mastering vs. artistic decisions in mixing? This new Hozier song is a nice tune, but the dirt on the vocals seems like a wrong decision to me. There is just too much to my ears. Do you guys think this is from crushing during mastering or they just slapped a bit too much decapitator on the vocals? I made it to 1:40 on the second listen. I can't image at what point the AE's said: "OK, that sounds good - now we're getting somewhere!". You know if that were live, it would be as dynamic as all get out. It died a sure death after the hands of fate spilled their magic potion on it. I don't know why I keep thinking people might actually like their music clean and natural on the whole. They might like it if exposed to it more often, and probably start rejecting the grainy stuff. So the artist approved it at some point !?! I operate pretty much in a vacuum. I don't really listen to the radio.. maybe 5 mins a week, when I drive in to do my two radio spots... So I wouldnt know new songs if they walked up and poked me in the eye. That is a great song, great singer... and can you imagine how great it would sound if the people involved with making it gave a f$ck about the end product. Man if that tune and that guy were recorded in days gone by... how great would it be.? thats really sad cheers Wiz |
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Post by b1 on Aug 18, 2015 16:34:43 GMT -6
It is sad... I kept hearing a dynamic live tune version in my mind, but the nasty reality of the video bit my face! Here's an interesting article from Bob Ludwig on mastering Gun's N Roses' Chinese Democracy (tip of the hat to Axl for a revolutionary idea!). Guns ‘N Roses: Dynamics and quality win the Loudness Wars: www.gatewaymastering.com/gateway_LoudnessWars.asp |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 18, 2015 18:52:29 GMT -6
I made it to 1:40 on the second listen. I can't image at what point the AE's said: "OK, that sounds good - now we're getting somewhere!". You know if that were live, it would be as dynamic as all get out. It died a sure death after the hands of fate spilled their magic potion on it. I don't know why I keep thinking people might actually like their music clean and natural on the whole. They might like it if exposed to it more often, and probably start rejecting the grainy stuff. So the artist approved it at some point !?! I operate pretty much in a vacuum. I don't really listen to the radio.. maybe 5 mins a week, when I drive in to do my two radio spots... So I wouldnt know new songs if they walked up and poked me in the eye. That is a great song, great singer... and can you imagine how great it would sound if the people involved with making it gave a f$ck about the end product. Man if that tune and that guy were recorded in days gone by... how great would it be.? thats really sad cheers Wiz My thoughts too. Really nice song, but misses the mark with the mixing or mastering. Could have been really tops. |
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Post by popmann on Aug 19, 2015 1:15:34 GMT -6
Tony, you missed the bit where I sent her a message the morning of the mastering session. It was already mixed with the assumption Ludwig would pancake it like he had the last 4 or 5 records. Which, like I said--is one of the few differences in "modern mixes"--if one assumes the mastering guy will kill it, one needs to "pre kill" the vocal. Sit it way above the fray with every syllable competitive with the the kick and snare. Otherwise, a Lookahead grabbing a loud snare hit can take a word into inaudibility. And make reverb seem overwhelming. Thus the second change I mentioned. You can listen here: (not sure the caliber of streaming....not where I can listen in hifi right now) jonathabrooke.com/music |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Aug 19, 2015 12:57:22 GMT -6
Not feeling well so I have spent the last couple of days listening to tunes on the IPhone and some trends I noticed.
1. The encoding rips away space depth and body. in other words low level detail.
2 over use of auto tune and the super hard use of modulation trick.
3 guitars and even keyboards are either super clean there is no middle ground anymore it's either clean or all out !
4 Pedel effects and more pedals. I think it's the idea of analog for depth but more and more it seams even voice needs a distortion , but everybody has a couple of cool pedals.
That's what I'm hearing
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Aug 22, 2015 10:00:57 GMT -6
yall need to check that dirty loops link i posted
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Post by Guitar on Aug 23, 2015 12:17:39 GMT -6
Is it just me or do every time you see that VEVO logo on a video, it's like, "Oh boy...Here we go." Same with FM radio, oh my, this stuff. It's kind of like instead of the cream rising to the top, actually somehow the top is a bunch of skim milk and you gotta dig a little for the creamy stuff (which is out there, for sure).
That Hozier song is a perfect example of good material pushed in the wrong, cheesy direction.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Aug 25, 2015 12:15:27 GMT -6
all of the dirty loops stuff from their album Loopified sounds amaze-balls. you should reference that stuff when selecting modern mixes :-D definitely my favorite tune right now. Sooo, none of you commented or even listened to this, I bet  |
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). They don't care that it doesn't bode well for our country's longevity, stupid society's fall at the hands of smarter ones, wash, rinse, repeat. Now get off my lawn you damn kidds!
