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Post by joseph on Aug 27, 2015 13:58:49 GMT -6
To me, there area a few things to think about.
If you have hard/harsh early reflections captured by your microphones, no quality reverb will fix them.
And all the best records until 2008, none of them used a Bricasti.
Everyone uses the Sunset Chamber or Large Wood Room preset, an easy trap to fall into, and do you want your fake room to sound like everyone else's?
Things are so portable these days, it's not hard to find an interesting space to track in that no one else has away from your main studio.
That said, if I were dealing with Ensemble/Orchestral/Classical guitar music, I would want one to improve less than ideal performance halls. Much like the 480L is still used on classical releases, but this is far superior.
But Phoenixverb also does have great and uncolored chambers especially, rooms and plates, and lets you handle early reflections elegantly. As many as you want. For rock/pop, thats kinda enough.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 27, 2015 14:55:53 GMT -6
Yes, the Phoenixverb is exceptionally clean, the closest to a Bricasti I've heard in a plug. I use the ReLab because riot was the first reverb I'd hear with some HD processing and it just killed UAD's 224XL. If I was starting over I'd seriously consider just the Phoenixverb, but the Relab is still great, quite colored and dense, but great.
Tony, I've never thought of multiple reverbs on the same send. How would that differ from blending the same reverbs, but each on its own bus?
I usually use the Relab's Medium hall, plus a little EMT-140 with the bottom rolled of around 250k, and a little off the top.
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Post by b1 on Aug 27, 2015 15:03:27 GMT -6
In my view, $3695.00 is unthinkable for a couple of presets... If it adds spice to your life and you have the finances for that amount for one piece of studio (only) gear, then by all means go for it and none will shun you for it (hopefully). The Sunset Chamber did sound great, but how many tracks is that going to be used on other than the occasional song or one album if the style permits. The listening stamina of copious amounts of reverb on every track in one listening session soon falls off. Some music will afford that better than others, but for the majority of music styles, especially, country, it's a waste of funds. Most of the other presets are easily replicated by other means.
I did get a kick out of the marketing hype when they chained 3 M7s together to get the exact same results as one unit. $10,000.00 smackeroos. There's only so much that can be done with reverb. I monitor with much more of everything than I would ever print. It would tire any other listeners out very quickly. That would be a terrible black mark that could never be retracted.
Sound design starts in the mind. If you cover all bases adequately, you are far ahead in the game and there are less needs for much extra - normally. 35 years ago, I had different sound spaces, from nearly dead space to others that required physical reflectors and various mic placements in that space to find something unusually usable. It was interesting to experiment with, but only usable once in a lifetime probably. But, no effects were used other than natural verb and reverb.
Kudos to the guys who punch in a preset to get the space they want. I'm happy for you!
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 27, 2015 15:05:38 GMT -6
Yes, the Phoenixverb is exceptionally clean, the closest to a Bricasti I've heard in a plug. I use the ReLab because riot was the first reverb I'd hear with some HD processing and it just killed UAD's 224XL. If I was starting over I'd seriously consider just the Phoenixverb, but the Relab is still great, quite colored and dense, but great. Tony, I've never thought of multiple reverbs on the same send. How would that differ from blending the same reverbs, but each on its own bus? I usually use the Relab's Medium hall, plus a little EMT-140 with the bottom rolled of around 250k, and a little off the top. depth is a function of distance, the more distance, the more the weaker high/low(to a degree) freq's get eat'n up by the atmosphere, so i progressively roll high end off and change density, diffusion, damping characteristics to shape the tone, of course the closest verb is the only one that has any early reflections at all, i NEVER use preset verbs on anything, that would include the bricasti, it's just too easy to create your own unique spaces with the parameter tools in these things. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 27, 2015 15:07:00 GMT -6
In my view, $3695.00 is unthinkable for a couple of presets... If it adds spice to your life and you have the finances for that amount for one piece of studio (only) gear, then by all means go for it and none will shun you for it (hopefully). The Sunset Chamber did sound great, but how many tracks is that going to be used on other than the occasional song or one album if the style permits. The listening stamina of copious amounts of reverb on every track in one listening session soon falls off. Some music will afford that better than others, but for the majority of music styles, especially, country, it's a waste of funds. Most of the other presets are easily replicated by other means. I did get a kick out of the marketing hype when they chained 3 M7s together to get the exact same results as one unit. $10,000.00 smackeroos. There's only so much that can be done with reverb. I monitor with much more of everything than I would ever print. It would tire any other listeners out very quickly. That would be a terrible black mark that could never be retracted. Sound design starts in the mind. If you cover all bases adequately, you are far ahead in the game and there are less needs for much extra - normally. 35 years ago, I had different sound spaces, from nearly dead space to others that required physical reflectors and various mic placements in that space to find something unusually usable. It was interesting to experiment with, but only usable once in a lifetime probably. But, no effects were used other than natural verb and reverb. Kudos to the guys who punch in a preset to get the space they want. I'm happy for you! the bricasti has full parameter control, if you just use presets, your not even touching the capability of ANY reverb. edit; id also love to have 4 of those things if i could! haha |
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Post by Guitar on Aug 27, 2015 16:15:09 GMT -6
glad to have multiple geeks on this forum :-D I'm glad to have a M7! The geeks are good as well.  I meant that as a term of admiration and endearment, I'm not sure if that came across. |
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 28, 2015 20:38:30 GMT -6
depth is a function of distance, the more distance, the more the weaker high/low(to a degree) freq's get eat'n up by the atmosphere, so i progressively roll high end off and change density, diffusion, damping characteristics to shape the tone, of course the closest verb is the only one that has any early reflections at all, i NEVER use preset verbs on anything, that would include the bricasti, it's just too easy to create your own unique spaces with the parameter tools in these things. Never thought about that densty and difussion changes as well with the distance. The dense part is logical, but diffusion??? Does it gets more diffus the farer the source is away? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 28, 2015 21:47:52 GMT -6
depth is a function of distance, the more distance, the more the weaker high/low(to a degree) freq's get eat'n up by the atmosphere, so i progressively roll high end off and change density, diffusion, damping characteristics to shape the tone, of course the closest verb is the only one that has any early reflections at all, i NEVER use preset verbs on anything, that would include the bricasti, it's just too easy to create your own unique spaces with the parameter tools in these things. Never thought abot that densty and difussion changes as well with the distance. The dense part is logical, but diffusion??? Does it gets more diffus the farer the source is away? definitely usually gets more diffused or at least more absorbed farther away, I loosely base density and diffusion decisions on how busy the mix is, density set high is thicker(obviously), more lush and obvious, set lower it makes verb thinner, more airy or wispy sounding but more obvious with decay. Diffusion set higher makes for smoother less slappy and obvious verb, and set lower it creates more obvious long wall like slap effects, so for busy, busy up tempo mixes, i'll lean toward lower density, higher diffusion, faster time based decays to leave space and create ambience with less obviousness. For slower sparser mixes, i'll lean toward higher density, lower diffusion to take space and add depth and character to the mix with more obviousness. But then sometimes i won't do that at all haha, it always depends. When working with multiple verbs, i just adhere to the laws of physics, the farther something is away, the thinner it becomes, the highs disappear, and bottom remains though volume goes down. The low end of verbs is the trickiest part to deal with, thats why i usually filter it off entirely 8) Oh, and the one thing i always do without fail, is de ess into all verbs, there is 0 benefit to sending that info into a verb imv. Of course YMMV Oh, and don't forget about the super power of pre delay and early reflections to locate your source, that is hugely important, early reflections fast equals closer to boundaries, and slower is more isolated and centered in a space. hope that helps, good luck |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 28, 2015 22:06:58 GMT -6
Man, I've got some studying to do. Thanks for that reverb info Tony, I was able to follow what you were describing very clearly, and can see where I might improve mixes if I learn to use reverbs more effectively.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 28, 2015 22:14:21 GMT -6
Man, I've got some studying to do. Thanks for that reverb info Tony, I was able to follow what you were describing very clearly, and can see where I might improve mixes if I learn to use reverbs more effectively. verb is the hardest thing for me to be satisfied with, i always get anx'd when reverb time comes, that's why i'm building those plates, spring boxes and getting a bricasti in the hopes that it'll be easier, and help me relax for fuck sake!! haha 8) |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 28, 2015 22:47:59 GMT -6
You're getting a Bricasti,? Wow, that's really cool. I've heard that sucker once, and knew it was special right away. And a real plate too? Damn.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 28, 2015 23:04:02 GMT -6
You're getting a Bricasti,? Wow, that's really cool. I've heard that sucker once, and knew it was special right away. And a real plate too? Damn. bricasti won't be too soon, but it's gotta happen... i'm building 2 real plates, one cold rolled mild steel, and one stainless steel, they should be really sweet! I have no idea what the stainless will sound like? thats what makes it fun! it'll probably be brighter i'd guess? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 28, 2015 23:18:49 GMT -6
Too rich for my blood for as little as I use reverb.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 29, 2015 3:08:19 GMT -6
Thanks Tony yeah ERs and Predelay is clear to me...
In most mixes today, with dry recorded tracks, I use one instance of Altiverb with ERs (Tail switched off) only, most often the earlys of one of the great reverb chambers, and I use the Lexicon PCM for the late part. Halls, Chamber.... etc. That works in a good way and creates the impression of one band in a room. But in the context of depth and dimension I never thought about the parameter difusion, but you are right.
Btw it never has been easier to me to create depth as with the Lexicons.
I guess its super easy with the M7?
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 29, 2015 7:44:34 GMT -6
Thanks Tony yeah ERs and Predelay is clear to me... In most mixes today, with dry recorded tracks, I use one instance of Altiverb with ERs (Tail switched off) only, most often the earlys of one of the great reverb chambers, and I use the Lexicon PCM for the late part. Halls, Chamber.... etc. That works in a good way and creates the impression of one band in a room. But in the context of depth and dimension I never thought about the parameter difusion, but you are right. Btw it never has been easier to me to create depth as with the Lexicons. I guess its super easy with the M7?I'd guess so, I'll find out in the demo period when I buy one, if it's not as great as it seems, I'll take it back and buy a Tesla! 8) |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Aug 29, 2015 12:33:42 GMT -6
You're getting a Bricasti,? Wow, that's really cool. I've heard that sucker once, and knew it was special right away. And a real plate too? Damn. bricasti won't be too soon, but it's gotta happen... i'm building 2 real plates, one cold rolled mild steel, and one stainless steel, they should be really sweet! I have no idea what the stainless will sound like? thats what makes it fun! it'll probably be brighter i'd guess? What Driver are you using for the Plates ? Brian my Cabinet builder works for the same company as soliddrive! |
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 29, 2015 14:27:59 GMT -6
bricasti won't be too soon, but it's gotta happen... i'm building 2 real plates, one cold rolled mild steel, and one stainless steel, they should be really sweet! I have no idea what the stainless will sound like? thats what makes it fun! it'll probably be brighter i'd guess? What Driver are you using for the Plates ? Brian my Cabinet builder works for the same company as soliddrive! Hey E, I haven't decided on that yet, Jim W was going to help me out a bit on that end of it, you have a model in mind i could look up? thanx for any info bud 8) |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Aug 29, 2015 14:30:33 GMT -6
What Driver are you using for the Plates ? Brian my Cabinet builder works for the same company as soliddrive! Hey E, I haven't decided on that yet, Jim W was going to help me out a bit on that end of it, you have a model in mind i could look up? thanx for any info bud 8) Tone I just was looking at a thread on that evil purple site and Saw the Driver was one of the Solid drives |
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Post by jimwilliams on Aug 30, 2015 10:51:33 GMT -6
There are many speaker 'exciter' modules available that could be glued to a plate for easy driving. No longer do you need to dissect a 4" speaker and glue the voice coil to the plate and line up the gaps perfectly. A couple of 2 buck piezo discs do well for pickups with a wider response and higher output = less noise. A 100 db s/n plate is easy these days.
However, the Bricasti is even quieter than that, takes up very little room and doesn't require a large, very quiet storage space. In LA my Echoplate II picked up all the constant, low level city rumble so I couldn't get those s/n readings unless I high passed the returns.
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Post by wiz on Aug 30, 2015 16:44:31 GMT -6
There are many speaker 'exciter' modules available that could be glued to a plate for easy driving. No longer do you need to dissect a 4" speaker and glue the voice coil to the plate and line up the gaps perfectly. A couple of 2 buck piezo discs do well for pickups with a wider response and higher output = less noise. A 100 db s/n plate is easy these days. However, the Bricasti is even quieter than that, takes up very little room and doesn't require a large, very quiet storage space. In LA my Echoplate II picked up all the constant, low level city rumble so I couldn't get those s/n readings unless I high passed the returns. This requirement for the space, is really the main reason why I don't have a plate.. or a real chamber. Had I the place for either of those, I would have one ..period. The Bricasti just continues to impress me. I even like its plates.. which I have read plenty of people say is its weak point. I am really going to dig into it this week, and really try and see if I can get close enough with other stuff to not have to buy one... cheers Wiz |
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Post by jimwilliams on Aug 30, 2015 18:50:50 GMT -6
Try the Rich Plate in ver. 2 software on a driving rock tune. 1.2 seconds, a little predelay with 5 on the modulation is amazing.
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Post by wiz on Aug 31, 2015 2:50:11 GMT -6
Try the Rich Plate in ver. 2 software on a driving rock tune. 1.2 seconds, a little predelay with 5 on the modulation is amazing. I don't mean to be that guy, you know, raving on about something cause its new and shiny. I certainly don't want to be the annoying cause of eye rolling... 8) But damn. I tried the settings above... the sound great. So does just about everything. I have been spending a lot of time, listening to the reverb returns of the Bricasti vs things like Relab, Valhalla and every other reverb I can get my hands on. You just have to listen to the returns, to hear why this thing sounds so good. The stereo placement of this thing is fantastic... I honestly can't sonically fault this thing. Sure its expensive.... it is. No question. compared to 200 dollar plug ins. I promise I will shut up for a bit. cheers Wiz |
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Post by swurveman on Aug 31, 2015 6:22:47 GMT -6
In my view, $3695.00 is unthinkable for a couple of presets... Kudos to the guys who punch in a preset to get the space they want. I'm happy for you! To dismiss the Bricasti M7 as a few presets is really unfair imo. My view of the unit is that it was primarily made by experienced reverb designers for experienced audio engineers who understand how to tweak predelay, reverb time, modulation, early reflections, late reflections, density, cutoff points, rolloffs delay, modulation, cutoff points etc. etc. . It is the best modern reverb made and designed for people who will not compromise and who's aim is to use the unit to create their own unique sounds. That being said, it is expensive and one is not enough. But there are those who can afford two, and I suspect as the 480L's die off in the best studios the Bricasti is going to dominate the market. |
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Post by b1 on Aug 31, 2015 6:27:14 GMT -6
Try the Rich Plate in ver. 2 software on a driving rock tune. 1.2 seconds, a little predelay with 5 on the modulation is amazing. I don't mean to be that guy, you know, raving on about something cause its new and shiny. I certainly don't want to be the annoying cause of eye rolling... 8) But damn. I tried the settings above... the sound great. So does just about everything. I have been spending a lot of time, listening to the reverb returns of the Bricasti vs things like Relab, Valhalla and every other reverb I can get my hands on. You just have to listen to the returns, to hear why this thing sounds so good. The stereo placement of this thing is fantastic... I honestly can't sonically fault this thing. Sure its expensive.... it is. No question. compared to 200 dollar plug ins. I promise I will shut up for a bit. cheers Wiz Enjoy Wiz!  |
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Post by b1 on Aug 31, 2015 6:29:04 GMT -6
In my view, $3695.00 is unthinkable for a couple of presets... Kudos to the guys who punch in a preset to get the space they want. I'm happy for you! To dismiss the Bricasti M7 as a few presets is really unfair imo. My view of the unit is that it was primarily made by experienced reverb designers for experienced audio engineers who understand how to tweak predelay, reverb time, modulation, early reflections, late reflections, density, cutoff points, rolloffs delay, modulation, cutoff points etc. etc. . It is the best modern reverb made and designed for people who will not compromise and who's aim is to use the unit to create their own unique sounds. That being said, it is expensive and one is not enough. But there are those who can afford two, and I suspect as the 480L's die off in the best studios the Bricasti is going to dominate the market. Point taken. So are you chaining two together? |
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