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Post by dizengoff on Aug 7, 2015 18:38:13 GMT -6
Cool Matt. Are you happy about the new compressor resembling the RCA more than the Federal? Is it a good thing? I took a look at Sylvia's site, and there's a spot where she has a before and after production song file. The demo is just horrible, I mean like way off key, monotonous, amateurish, etc. The produced song just rocks, is exciting, well constructed and interesting. If that's what she can do, I want some, cause she's a genius. Matt, did I understand correctly, the engineer you mentioned uses the D4 on the mixes? I assume then he has two, and uses preamps on the 2 bus? I would have thought people would try two D864's on the 2. Yes, he uses two D4's as summing amplifiers. He runs his mix into a passive bus, then uses the D4's for makeup gain. I'm sure you could use a pair of D864's in a similar fashion. They have enough gain that I think they could operate as comp/mix bus amplifiers. I'll have to try that and see what the results are like. I think the comp resemblance to the RCA is good...it wasn't intended, but the RCA is a lot less of a 'one trick pony' than the Federal was. I wanted versatility in this design. For my next project (once the D4 is finished) I was considering an RCA-inspired summing amplifier. I think a pair of BA2 inspired channels that can function as mic preamps with summing inputs might be fun. Everyone says the BA1 sounds better, but it doesn't have as much gain unfortunately. Matt Dizengoff Audio
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 7, 2015 19:15:18 GMT -6
Matt,
the d4 pre's do not have stereo link so you need to use your ears but the D864 do have stereo link so just another nice feature ?
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Post by dizengoff on Aug 7, 2015 22:02:43 GMT -6
Matt, the d4 pre's do not have stereo link so you need to use your ears but the D864 do have stereo link so just another nice feature ? The D4 circuit is pretty easy to match across channels though because it has so much negative feedback. I think that's what EMI had in mind when designing that weird 'trim' feature into the circuit--it helps match channels. The D864 has link, but the link only controls the compressor sidechain (threshold, ratio, attack, release). It doesn't control input gain. That has to be matched manually. Matt Dizengoff Audio
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 8, 2015 4:28:16 GMT -6
Gee you are so knowledgable : ever thought about designing gear ?
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Post by dizengoff on Aug 8, 2015 7:39:56 GMT -6
LOL, someday...
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 8, 2015 8:40:20 GMT -6
Matt, are you coming to the AES show in NYC?
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 8, 2015 9:27:04 GMT -6
which Matt ?
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Post by M57 on Aug 8, 2015 10:33:14 GMT -6
Hi Matt,
Interested in pairing a D4 with an SM7B and giving that a try. Are you aware of anyone that has tried that chain, and would you recommend a Cloudlifter?
Also, what is the availability of the D4? Do they ship immediately?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 8, 2015 10:47:45 GMT -6
which Matt ? Well, you're both welcome, but I have only one extra bed, so you'd have to toss a coin for who gets the couch.
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Post by dizengoff on Aug 8, 2015 19:21:25 GMT -6
Hi Matt, Interested in pairing a D4 with an SM7B and giving that a try. Are you aware of anyone that has tried that chain, and would you recommend a Cloudlifter? Also, what is the availability of the D4? Do they ship immediately? I think the D4 and SM7 are a good combo. I have several customers that use them together without a Cloudlifter. D4's are built to order...I try to keep them in stock but they sell faster than I can build them. I'm shipping a bunch of international orders on Monday; if you ordered one it would ship Tuesday. After that I'm headed to the east coast for a few days. Martin, I hadn't thought about attending AES. It would be nice, but I'm not sure the work flow will allow it. If something changes I'll be sure to let you know. Matt Dizengoff Audio
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Post by RicFoxx on Aug 8, 2015 21:04:36 GMT -6
Hi Matt, Interested in pairing a D4 with an SM7B and giving that a try. Are you aware of anyone that has tried that chain, and would you recommend a Cloudlifter? Also, what is the availability of the D4? Do they ship immediately? No problems whatsoever with SM7 and D here!
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Post by drumrec on Aug 9, 2015 17:12:02 GMT -6
Looks interesting your page and welcome to the RGO Dizengoff
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Post by M57 on Aug 9, 2015 17:50:42 GMT -6
Pulled the trigger and ordered a D4! ..hopefully for my vocal chain. Matt has a busy week scheduled, but graciously offered to build one quickly and get it out in the mail. Credit this site and Matt's advertising here for closing the deal. Decided to shoot-out my locker with the it before moving forward with a new mic purchase. It may take a while but I plan to post the shots here and get some opinions..
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Post by dizengoff on Aug 10, 2015 7:53:13 GMT -6
Thanks drumrec and thanks M57 for your purchase!
I got another report this morning from an Australian customer of someone using the D4 alongside their V72/V76/V78 collection and really digging it. Those things are always nice to hear. Plus the D4 isn't as finicky as those high-value pieces, so you don't feel bad about beating it up or hitting it hard with a signal.
Matt Dizengoff Audio
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Post by lpedrum on Aug 10, 2015 9:50:22 GMT -6
I asked a long-time engineer friend whose wisdom and opinion I turn to often if he was familiar with the D4. He had not heard the D4 specifically but this was his response:
I have original Telefunken v72s and am familiar with the potential pitfalls of trying to modify the circuit for higher gain with variability. One of the coolest things about the original tube pres of that era is that they have a huge window in which they very gradually saturate before they reach the point of noticeably distorted sound. They are rather lush with good sense of depth, and they gradually and smoothly compress as you reach their useable limit. The top end is very smooth while still being detailed. never harsh, even as they saturate. These are the qualities that I've never heard in a new "inspired by" or "based on" tube pre. The new stuff sounds great until it reaches a more defined point of noticeable distortion which I think many like because they can actually hear it doing something. It's not a very smooth transition or grace period. It doesn't mean that people aren't making great new stuff. They are. This is just what's missing for me.
I'm NOT posting this to be critical of Dizengoff or any other companies such as Warm Audio. I LOVE the fact that they are making affordable gear. But I am curious how the D4 saturates and if folks that own both the vintage gear and the D4 could elaborate or weigh in. I'm also curious if Matt from Dizengoff could speak to this specifically. Some folks here on RGO embrace the new vintage style gear, while others such as Randge have an opinion that's probably more similar to my friend's.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 10, 2015 10:03:38 GMT -6
Interesting question.
One thing about the d4 is that Matt had custom transformers produced for it and picked very good OTS tubes, so lets ensure that we use the term "clone" non-purjoratively. On the diz FB page there are owner of vintage gear who state that people are picking the d4.
I don't have the experience nor expertise of many who post here and i find it hard to find the words to describe the d4 but there is both a presence , clarity and naturalness to it . I know Matt is quoted as saying its transient response is very fast, so I think that speaks to its clarity and naturalness.
doesn't he have performance graphs on his website ?
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 10, 2015 10:14:29 GMT -6
I asked a long-time engineer friend whose wisdom and opinion I turn to often if was familiar with the D4. He had not heard the D4 specifically but this was his response: I have original Telefunken v72s and am familiar with the potential pitfalls of trying to modify the circuit for higher gain with variability. One of the coolest things about the original tube pres of that era is that they have a huge window in which they very gradually saturate before they reach the point of noticeably distorted sound. They are rather lush with good sense of depth, and they gradually and smoothly compress as you reach their useable limit. The top end is very smooth while still being detailed. never harsh, even as they saturate. These are the qualities that I've never heard in a new "inspired by" or "based on" tube pre. The new stuff sounds great until it reaches a more defined point of noticeable distortion which I think many like because they can actually hear it doing something. It's not a very smooth transition or grace period. It doesn't mean that people aren't making great new stuff. They are. This is just what's missing for me. I'm NOT posting this to be critical of Dizengoff or any other companies such as Warm Audio. I LOVE the fact that they are making affordable gear. But I am curious how the D4 saturates and if folks that own both the vintage gear and the D4 could elaborate or weigh in. I'm also curious if Matt from Dizengoff could speak to this specifically. Some folks here on RGO embrace the new vintage style gear, while others such as Randge have an opinion that's probably more similar to my friend's. I remember when we did this, we didn't give the D-4 ample warm up time, and did nothing particular toward mic placement, or to drive it, I think between it and the Heider U87, it's about as good as it gets, it infused me with GAS for a D-4 that needs to be satisfied sooner than later. first soundcloud clip realgearonline.com/post/50912/thread
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Post by RicFoxx on Aug 10, 2015 11:08:12 GMT -6
I have no experience with the vintage units but I can tell you that the D4 is very smooth and airy and not crispy on top...everything I hear the vintage units being.
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Post by jdc on Aug 10, 2015 13:17:07 GMT -6
Ah I had always associated that crispiness with poor microphone construction and had never stopped to consider that the preamp might be shaping some of that as well. The more I've become aware of that crispy aspect in the highs the more I start to notice it everywhere. It's pervasive! Anyone know what some of the things that cause this in preamp construction and design might be?
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Post by lpedrum on Aug 10, 2015 13:25:49 GMT -6
I have no experience with the vintage units but I can tell you that the D4 is very smooth and airy and not crispy on top...everything I hear the vintage units being. I have no doubt that the D4 is a very nice pre and worth its affordable price. But I am curious to hear from audio engineers that have had a lot of experience with vintage tube pres about the specific saturation effect that they have, and if any of the new "based-on" pres get close to that. I like the specificity that my friend offered, as he went way beyond the usual adjectives folks throw around. I think it's worthy of discussion, especially when new companies are directly referencing classic sounds like V72, Pultec etc etc.
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Post by dizengoff on Aug 10, 2015 13:55:27 GMT -6
Thanks for posting that, but I'm unsure of what modifying the V72s circuit has to do with the D4? The D4 is a REDD47 clone. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post.
Matt Dizengoff Audio
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Post by lpedrum on Aug 10, 2015 15:28:22 GMT -6
Thanks for posting that, but I'm unsure of what modifying the V72s circuit has to do with the D4? The D4 is a REDD47 clone. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post. Matt Dizengoff Audio I think my friend was speaking to vintage tube pres more generally and the way they saturate vs. modern sound-alikes. So I guess in this case the correct comparison would by the Redd amp vs the D4. I'm certainly not an expert, but I'm curious about the topic of when remakes of vintage gear, (or new gear inspired by famous vintage pieces) hit the mark and to what degree. As I stated, my friend had not yet heard the D4, but his opinion was that vintage tube pres have a wider, more musical sweet spot when it comes to saturation. I'm in no way being critical of the D4--I haven't even heard it! But as with all gear I'm interested in a deeper, more nuanced discussion that goes beyond the press release adjectives.
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Post by lpedrum on Aug 10, 2015 15:29:55 GMT -6
And the Redd47 is a modified V72, correct? Hence the reference to V72 type pres.
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Post by dizengoff on Aug 10, 2015 16:11:29 GMT -6
The REDD47 has some similarity to the V72 in that both use EF86 pentodes for input, but the overall topology is quite a bit different. REDD47 was considered an upgraded improvement for the V72 if I recall (more headroom). In this case, I've added the ability to dial in extra gain, similar to what John Hinson did with his version of the REDD47 (his work heavily influenced the D4). The 'trim' is a fine trim feature that is...odd and somewhat useless except for matching channels. I kept it for posterity's sake.
One thing your friend might be hearing when it comes to vintage vs modern designs is transformer saturation behavior. Older transformer materials went through much different annealing processes than we use today, so their BH loops were not as 'square' as modern designs (IMO Mark from Samar Audio is a wealth of information on the subject, which is kind of beyond this post). With the D4, I used modern American made hi and lo nickel lams for the transformers, and I've found their permeability/consistency is excellent compared to laminates of dubious origin. I wanted something that was fairly linear for input, so we went with a very square BH loop. Output is a softer, more forgiving loop. The user will likely want to overdrive the circuit at times, and very square loops don't saturate in a pleasant way.
Winding process is another crucial aspect--the fellow who helped me design the transformers is in his 80's, and is a veteran of the post WW2 Chicago transformer winding days (ex Western Electric/Stancor/Triad/Forest Electric) so he tends to prefer the WE/Peerless winding methods. We did a Peerless-type interleaving on the input because of the linearity it gave. Anyway, I digress...
I don't know your friend but I have had multiple customers at this point tell me the same thing--these hold up quite well to the original V72/V76 designs. Will it hit the 'mark' and sound like a exactly like a vintage REDD47 or V72? I'd be very surprised if it does, just like the WA76 doesn't sound exactly like the old 1176's. But I think it's pretty good for what it is, especially considering the price. That's my 2 cents.
Matt Dizengoff Audio
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Post by wiz on Aug 10, 2015 16:16:47 GMT -6
dizengoffHey Matt whats the chance of getting a demo unit down here in Oz? And the comp as well? cheers Wiz
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