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Post by gouge on Apr 29, 2015 22:47:41 GMT -6
I was hoping to get a conversation going about drum room mics.
ie. placement, mixing, mono stereo.
what do people like. I tend to use a pair of stereo mics out front and then add other mono mics. a hallway mic, a room mic, mono overhead. I am finding at mix time that I don't use most of the mono mics and seem to just pick one, add 20-30ms delay and send the full wet for crunching and blending that in.
I am always up for throwing a billion mics around a room just because and then only using 1 or 2. so I guess I'm curious as to peoples combinations of mics.
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Post by Ward on Apr 30, 2015 5:59:28 GMT -6
Placement in a small to medium room (which most of us use):
From the snare drum, each of two LDCs set in omni (I prefer either U87s or U89s, but would use AKG C12a's if I had two of them) 10' away at about a 15º angle, making the two room mics about 16-18' apart. So slightly in front but to the sides of the kit. They should be at about 6' off the floor.
Then CRUSH THEM! I go for moderate gain on the strips so that -18DBVU is the average (and pretty constant usually), EQ out a little 350hz (naturally, with drums) as well as something in the center mids (room dependent) between 1.6k and 2k. Wherever it's ugly. Then crush 'em 1176 style with about 9db of Gain Reduction.
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Post by gouge on Apr 30, 2015 6:24:38 GMT -6
thanks ward,
do you use any other room mics with that setup? assume you pan those mics hard L-R
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Post by Ward on Apr 30, 2015 6:44:47 GMT -6
I pretty much stick to those two sets. Although I do also have a matched set of Gefell M930s I have tried in this application but where they're cardioid, I don't get the room tone I seek. Until my ancient Sennhesier MKH104s started going wonky, I used to use those in this application and they were amazing.
But yes, always hard LR. And always omnis. Or omni pattern chosen.
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Post by svart on Apr 30, 2015 6:58:31 GMT -6
I usually only use one, which is now my U47, about 12ft out from the kit, about 2ft from the ground, facing the area right in the middle of the snare, toms and kick bottom heads are.
I'll crush it and put it under the rest of the drums for a little more midrange definition and gel. I just barely turn it up to the point where I can hear it start to fill out the mids. Bus compression later will help bring it out in the mix, so don't overdo it.
I don't necessarily like the modern "everything from the room mics" sound, it reminds me too much of garage recordings and it makes me feel like the bands are OK with that LO-FI sound because they are lazy.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Apr 30, 2015 8:15:22 GMT -6
Really depends on what I'm going for in the particular song.
If I want width, then it's usually a spaced pair of U87's, or 414's as far as I can get them from the drums. Sometime high up to the ceiling, and other times close to the floor.
For more punch, and a bit of space, I will usually place a Royer SF-12 about 10 feet out in front of the kit, about 36 inches off the floor.
Now if I really want to add punch, I will use a Coles 4038 about 3 feet in front, again about 36 inches off the floor. And with all, I will filter, compress, & crush to taste.
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Post by swurveman on Apr 30, 2015 9:50:13 GMT -6
This crushed room mic technique is something I try, but leave so low in the mix that I really am just following the herd and not really understanding conceptually. So, if someone could explain the concept I'd really appreciate it. I think the objective is to make small rooms-where most drums are tracked now compared to where Bonham tracked his drums- sound bigger by making the sustain of the drum room longer, but wouldn't sending the room mics to a reverb on a large hall or large studio room setting accomplish the same thing?
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Post by svart on Apr 30, 2015 9:56:42 GMT -6
This crushed room mic technique is something I try, but leave so low in the mix that I really am just following the herd and not really understanding conceptually. So, if someone could explain the concept I'd really appreciate it. I think the objective is to make small rooms-where most drums are tracked now compared to where Bonham tracked his drums- sound bigger by making the sustain of the drum room longer, but wouldn't sending the room mics to a reverb on a large hall or large studio room setting accomplish the same thing? It takes any room and adds some more dimensionality. That and it fills some of the missing close mic bleed with a more natural filler. Close mic bleed tends to null and peak at strange frequencies, so you'd minimize that bleed but fill in with the room mics to get a more complete sound. In a sparse mix, a big room sound can help, but in a more dense mix, that big room reverb thing won't work at all, but a short decay with a little time offset will trick the brain into hearing a much bigger environment. It's true ambience with a little pre-delay if you look at it that way. |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Apr 30, 2015 10:10:46 GMT -6
Frank,
Yes, you are correct, but with positioning, and the proper choice of mic, you can enhance the good stuff, and avoid a lot of the annoying cymbal bleed etc.
It really depends on the drummer, the room, and the tune.
After a while you will be able to choose the right mic, position, and even compressor for the song to achieve the desired effect.
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Post by wiz on Apr 30, 2015 16:23:58 GMT -6
I actually don't use em..
8)
signed
Devils Advocate
8)
cheers
Wiz
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Post by wiz on Apr 30, 2015 16:24:40 GMT -6
I actually don't use em.. 8) signed Devils Advocate 8) cheers Wiz I should have added THE most important point my room don't sound good enough to use for room mics. cavet (room) emptor cheers Wiz |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Apr 30, 2015 16:28:15 GMT -6
I don't record drums much. Just wanted to say that the wealth of knowledge on this forum is priceless. Thanks guys for the tips.
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Post by ragan on Apr 30, 2015 16:40:46 GMT -6
I track in a small, dead room. For ambience, I will put a pair of 414b-ULS to the immediate sides of the kit (maybe 15" off the floor tom and hats) and measure them so they're the same distance from the snare. Or, sometimes I'll put a pair of Fatheads in a front-rear pair, one in front of the kick and one behind the drum throne. Same distance from the snare. Or ill occasionally put a pair of Oktava Mk012s in front of the kit about 15" off the kick and about 48" apart. 12" off the ground and angled down at the floor and slightly away from the kick.
Whatever pair I'm using I'll smash to bits with an 1176 (usually UAD's Rev A). If there's anything nasty going on that I can't fix with EQ, I'll put FabFilter ProMB on and just compress that part. If the cymbals are problematic, I'll sometimes make a duplicate of the kick track and side chain key the multiband comp off of that. Then I'll cut up that dup kick track so that it's only keying the MB comp in the problem spots (sometimes just choruses or something systematic like that, other times just certain hits).
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Post by Ward on Apr 30, 2015 21:26:18 GMT -6
This crushed room mic technique is something I try, but leave so low in the mix that I really am just following the herd and not really understanding conceptually. So, if someone could explain the concept I'd really appreciate it. I think the objective is to make small rooms-where most drums are tracked now compared to where Bonham tracked his drums- sound bigger by making the sustain of the drum room longer, but wouldn't sending the room mics to a reverb on a large hall or large studio room setting accomplish the same thing? It takes any room and adds some more dimensionality. That and it fills some of the missing close mic bleed with a more natural filler. Close mic bleed tends to null and peak at strange frequencies, so you'd minimize that bleed but fill in with the room mics to get a more complete sound. In a sparse mix, a big room sound can help, but in a more dense mix, that big room reverb thing won't work at all, but a short decay with a little time offset will trick the brain into hearing a much bigger environment. It's true ambience with a little pre-delay if you look at it that way. You and I and mobeach should start a band. The 3 of us seem to agree on just about everything. The reason for room mics? 3D BOYS AND GIRLS!!! If the Stereo field is the X and Y axis, depth is the Z axis and that's where the room mics come in! |
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Post by gouge on Apr 30, 2015 23:23:57 GMT -6
I used to really over crush the room mics. it wasn't until I backed off a little and stopped at the point where the tails and the sizzle started that I found I could run them higher in the mix.
I've been trying lately to blend multiple mono mics to one channel and compress that. I can't seem to get ti to sound good. has anyone had any luck with multiple mono mics.
maybe it's that they need to be Omni for it to work better.
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Post by jazznoise on May 1, 2015 1:35:25 GMT -6
A stereo pair of boundary mics works best for me - usually you gotta put them either far away and stupid wide or you gotta go close and delay them to avoid too much phasing. The Albini thing, as has been discussed before, doesn't involve crushing the room mics at all. Usually just a fast compressor to catch the snare blipping on the Overheads. M/S over the front of kit, overheads and a pair of room mics from what he's said and I've seen.
I personally don't like doing the crushed mic except for things like Heavy Metal where I think it's often stylistically appropriate to make the cymbals more washy. Room mics don't have the exaggerated dynamic range of close mics, and it usually takes up and awful lot of musical space that could be used by other instruments.
Hello, by the way.
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Post by Ward on May 1, 2015 6:25:23 GMT -6
jazznoise, A popular thing in the mid-90s was to mount one PZM on a mic stand behind and just over the drummer's head, and a second in front of the kit attached to a piece of plywood. This was a method to bring out the natural ring and overtones of a kit even further, which is something we tried to minimize in the 80s and early 90s as we wanted clean tight drum sounds. The tastes turned around somewhere around 15 years ago and the move went back to tighter, cleaner drums sounds. But they went to far for the past 5 years to where drums sound like carefully executed farts and thuds, especially everything that has come out of mainstream country, new-alt and Christian worship music forms. Over the past 2 years, the shift has begun again and we are getting back to a more natural drum sound, albeit just as compressed but in your face. And it is really really stinking hard to achieve it... I'm not totally satisfied with the results I have been getting over the past year but I'm definitely becoming more satisfied. Te use of boundary mics will take it to the other end of the spectrum, and they force you to really work harder on every drum recorded on every single take. That requires an awful lot of work... just be willing to do it. There are no shortcuts and fewer ways to fix anything in the mix when you use them and rely on them in the mix. They glaringly show every ugly detail you will have overlooked... like the precise tuning of the bottom heads of toms, the one loose lug on the front head of the kick drum, the one tiny squeak in the kick or hi-hat pedals. You get my point, I'm sure. Room mics are much more forgiving (even crushed) than boundary mics are. Room mics bring more air and space into the trap kit's sound. Boundary mics bring more midrange. IMHE
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Post by mobeach on May 1, 2015 7:44:31 GMT -6
It takes any room and adds some more dimensionality. That and it fills some of the missing close mic bleed with a more natural filler. Close mic bleed tends to null and peak at strange frequencies, so you'd minimize that bleed but fill in with the room mics to get a more complete sound. In a sparse mix, a big room sound can help, but in a more dense mix, that big room reverb thing won't work at all, but a short decay with a little time offset will trick the brain into hearing a much bigger environment. It's true ambience with a little pre-delay if you look at it that way. You and I and mobeach should start a band. The 3 of us seem to agree on just about everything. The reason for room mics? 3D BOYS AND GIRLS!!! If the Stereo field is the X and Y axis, depth is the Z axis and that's where the room mics come in! I don't know what I'm doing so I just agree with everyone that knows more than me. A band sounds cool though. Mosvartward, sounds Jewish.. |
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Post by Randge on May 1, 2015 8:09:12 GMT -6
I typically have 17 mics on the kit and record everything. At mix time, I lose what I don't need and find what works for that particular song. I don't really care for the sound of over compressed anything, preferring to make the kit sound as natural as I can. My favorite records don't go off the deep end in any way and always sound relevant 20-40 yrs later. Timeless if you will. My room mics are 8-10 feet straight out in front of the kit and I don't get crazy with super wide panning. After all, there are other things that belong panned wider to the L and R than the drum kit.
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Post by swurveman on May 1, 2015 8:36:19 GMT -6
I typically have 17 mics on the kit and record everything. At mix time, I lose what I don't need and find what works for that particular song. I don't really care for the sound of over compressed anything, preferring to make the kit sound as natural as I can. My favorite records don't go off the deep end in any way and always sound relevant 20-40 yrs later. Timeless if you will. My room mics are 8-10 feet straight out in front of the kit and I don't get crazy with super wide panning. After all, there are other things that belong panned wider to the L and R than the drum kit. Thanks for replying Randy. A few questions for you, and others: How far do you pan your room tracks in your DAW/Console once they are recorded and you're mixing? Is it the same amount as the overheads? I've been doing songwriter demos using Superior Drummer. They have an amazing number of direct, stereo room and mono room mics. So, I'm learning about the tone and front/back space of their mics and blending direct mics, close/mid/far room mics as well a a mono kit mic and what they call a bullet mic- which emphasized the high end of the kick and snare. However, I'm still learning about how wide the direct/OH's/Rooms should be and how it varies by genre. Since room and other ambient mics are sometimes subtle, it's hard to tell from pro mixes. I go by instinct, but it would be interesting to hear people's thoughts about mix width of all the drum mics. |
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Post by Ward on May 1, 2015 9:07:15 GMT -6
I typically have 17 mics on the kit and record everything. At mix time, I lose what I don't need and find what works for that particular song. I don't really care for the sound of over compressed anything, preferring to make the kit sound as natural as I can. My favorite records don't go off the deep end in any way and always sound relevant 20-40 yrs later. Timeless if you will. My room mics are 8-10 feet straight out in front of the kit and I don't get crazy with super wide panning. After all, there are other things that belong panned wider to the L and R than the drum kit. That's why your drums sound like drums and not Nashville's recent spate of 'live dead drum machines tones'. |
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Post by jimwilliams on May 1, 2015 9:08:34 GMT -6
Back in the 1980's and 90's I always added a pair of room mics only because it was what everyone was doing at that time. Usually it was a pair of 414's.
I quickly found out that most rooms sound like crap. 90+% of them. The rooms I used that had great acoustics sounded too difused, too long a delay to be added without creating mush.
At mix time I would try and incorporate them but usually after a few minutes I would dump them. That freed up 2 more tracks on the 24 track so I wasn't too upset.
In LA I once set up an array of mics in a long tracking room owned by the drummer of Smash Mouth. They were mounted on the walls with long extending mic stands so they could be put out at about any position or angle. I used 9 MCA SP-1 mics. Scotty Page (Pink Floyd) also has a similar setup at his LA studio with an array of JBL Control 5's mounted all over the 80 foot long space. That way he could fold back the sound and replace it anywhere in the room.
These days, I have an excellent room, several in fact. Most of them reside inside of my Bricasti M7.
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Post by wiz on May 1, 2015 17:24:11 GMT -6
I used to pan my drums really wide...
nowadays I am more conservative,
Logic goes to 65 Left and 65 Right, numerically speaking... my overheads sit around 36 left and right
I tend to LCR everything else though.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by lpedrum on May 1, 2015 18:06:46 GMT -6
I typically have 17 mics on the kit and record everything. At mix time, I lose what I don't need and find what works for that particular song. I don't really care for the sound of over compressed anything, preferring to make the kit sound as natural as I can. My favorite records don't go off the deep end in any way and always sound relevant 20-40 yrs later. Timeless if you will. My room mics are 8-10 feet straight out in front of the kit and I don't get crazy with super wide panning. After all, there are other things that belong panned wider to the L and R than the drum kit. True. But as another option I often will not pan the kit mics hard left and right, but WILL pan the stereo room mics hard. The drums have more focus, but a touch of wide room mics gives some breadth to the sound. |
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Post by svart on May 1, 2015 18:56:25 GMT -6
It takes any room and adds some more dimensionality. That and it fills some of the missing close mic bleed with a more natural filler. Close mic bleed tends to null and peak at strange frequencies, so you'd minimize that bleed but fill in with the room mics to get a more complete sound. In a sparse mix, a big room sound can help, but in a more dense mix, that big room reverb thing won't work at all, but a short decay with a little time offset will trick the brain into hearing a much bigger environment. It's true ambience with a little pre-delay if you look at it that way. You and I and mobeach should start a band. The 3 of us seem to agree on just about everything. The reason for room mics? 3D BOYS AND GIRLS!!! If the Stereo field is the X and Y axis, depth is the Z axis and that's where the room mics come in! Yeah, we seem to agree on most things here on the forum it seems! |
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