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Post by carymiller on May 8, 2015 8:17:33 GMT -6
I was hoping to get a conversation going about drum room mics.
ie. placement, mixing, mono stereo.
what do people like. I tend to use a pair of stereo mics out front and then add other mono mics. a hallway mic, a room mic, mono overhead. I am finding at mix time that I don't use most of the mono mics and seem to just pick one, add 20-30ms delay and send the full wet for crunching and blending that in.
I am always up for throwing a billion mics around a room just because and then only using 1 or 2. so I guess I'm curious as to peoples combinations of mics.
I favor Shure KSM353ED and KSM313NE Ribbon mics on drums over most other microphones. These used to be called the El Diablo and Naked Eye before Shure bought Crowley and Tripp. I find that the KSM353ED can be EQ'd to feel like an old RCA...and is superior, but very similar to a Coles 4040 before you start dialing in EQ. Whereas the KSM313NE can be EQ'd to feel very similar to a Royer 121...only bigger sounding...and has a range of other very useable tones due to it's reversible sides with different balances. The other bonus of these mics is they're indestructible...you will never have to get them re-ribboned due to their Roswelite ribbon designs...they have lifetime warranties...and unless you're throwing them around, they're built to last practically forever as long as you take care of them. Unlike Royer's "live" designs with more durable Ribbons, the Shure's don't sacrifice anything when it comes to tone either...generally outperforming almost every other Ribbon design in any capacity I can name to my experience. I love using either design as underheads alla Greg Wells/Eric Valentine (I think I've written about this in other threads here and on GS....but I figure it's not a big deal to talk about it again.) If I need a stereo Ribbon mic though the AEA R88 is my first pick...it sounds wonderful and is at a decent price point...really easy to set up...but it's fragile so you're best bet is a latchlake stand to keep it safe. Se Electronics, Royer, RCA, Coles, AEA, and Cascade all have other standout ribbons I really like too...but I'd want some of those designs to round things out after stocking up on as many KSM353ED and KSM313NE as I could afford for general purpose mic placement. They're expensive...but in the end they save you a lot of headache since they never wear out and always manage to immediately sound great in the context of the mix. The Cascade Fathead II with the Lundhal transformer mod has an extremely self-compressed sound which is unique to a point where having a pair can really help if you just need things to stand out...the advantage of these is that they're cheap, so I'm giving them special mention if you're looking for cheaper ribbons to try...however they simply can't compete with the Shures on every level...especially durability. |
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Post by carymiller on May 8, 2015 8:20:09 GMT -6
Surely you must own a matched pair of Beyer MC930 mics then? They are the hands-down best mics for capturing the entire sound of the kit from an overhead position. Unfortunately i don't, I usually use over heads/all mic's dependent upon where i'm envisioning things sitting in the final image, i've never been a big fan of SDC's, they are generally to immediate for my taste, especially on a room sound that I often throw to the deepest part of a mix. I tend to like the legato effect LDC's have on most sources, sometimes they're even too much and i go ribbons. I'd almost surely pick a C12 with some distance for acoustic guitar even over the fav KM84, i have some modded sm81's and some modded MDC AT4033's that i use to fit things into more heavily populated mixes, of course just my way, YMMV. I agree with you about SDC's on overheads...I'd much rather have Ribbons/LDC's in figure 8 pattern if the room permits it...or use Ribbons as underheads in figure 8. SDC's always bring out the wrong frequency balance to me...yes it's more immediate like you say in the mids, but you toss away the rest of the kit which really hurts the imaging of the whole of the kit in the final mix. Your drums just won't sound nearly as huge with SDC's on overhead duty. |
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Post by Ward on May 8, 2015 9:46:35 GMT -6
Unfortunately i don't, I usually use over heads/all mic's dependent upon where i'm envisioning things sitting in the final image, i've never been a big fan of SDC's, they are generally to immediate for my taste, especially on a room sound that I often throw to the deepest part of a mix. I tend to like the legato effect LDC's have on most sources, sometimes they're even too much and i go ribbons. I'd almost surely pick a C12 with some distance for acoustic guitar even over the fav KM84, i have some modded sm81's and some modded MDC AT4033's that i use to fit things into more heavily populated mixes, of course just my way, YMMV. I agree with you about SDC's on overheads...I'd much rather have Ribbons/LDC's in figure 8 pattern if the room permits it...or use Ribbons as underheads in figure 8. SDC's always bring out the wrong frequency balance to me...yes it's more immediate like you say in the mids, but you toss away the rest of the kit which really hurts the imaging of the whole of the kit in the final mix. Your drums just won't sound nearly as huge with SDC's on overhead duty. Normally yes, but you wait until you try a matched set of Beyer MC930s in widely spaced AB. Then get back to me. |
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Post by carymiller on May 8, 2015 11:13:56 GMT -6
I agree with you about SDC's on overheads...I'd much rather have Ribbons/LDC's in figure 8 pattern if the room permits it...or use Ribbons as underheads in figure 8. SDC's always bring out the wrong frequency balance to me...yes it's more immediate like you say in the mids, but you toss away the rest of the kit which really hurts the imaging of the whole of the kit in the final mix. Your drums just won't sound nearly as huge with SDC's on overhead duty. Normally yes, but you wait until you try a matched set of Beyer MC930s in widely spaced AB. Then get back to me. There are some SDC's which are better than others...the MC930's are great, but I still wouldn't pick them for overheads....I get a bigger sound out of ribbons...but that's where things come together faster/easier for me when I'm picking mics for most drum kits. I shocked a metal band a few years ago going for mostly ribbons; what they didn't get at first was this made the cymbals dark enough for EQ to really help extend their naturally brighter cymbal sound without fear of sibilance, blew their minds later on in the mix. Those Shure ribbons should be in EVERY studio but I get that Royers came first (kind of like iPod to Zune....) It's sad most people haven't gotten to try a pair of KSM353ED's as overheads/underheads though. =/ |
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Post by jdc on May 8, 2015 13:22:22 GMT -6
also you can get 2 R121's for the price of 1 KSM353ED's, but the KSM313NE would be a more fair comparison to the R121 (they're the exact same price haha), which has me intrigued. They sound BIGGER you say?
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Post by carymiller on May 8, 2015 13:38:31 GMT -6
also you can get 2 R121's for the price of 1 KSM353ED's, but the KSM313NE would be a more fair comparison to the R121 (they're the exact same price haha), which has me intrigued. They sound BIGGER you say? The KSM353ED is the best all purpose instrument mic I've ever used. (I own the original Crowley and Tripp El Diablo version of the same mic.) It always wins on shootouts for guitar amps of all kinds. It always wins on bass amps. It's killer and usually one of the top two contenders for kick drum if it gets shot out for that job (it can handle 143dB SPL so you can put it on the beater and you don't need to angle it in order to prevent ribbon damage...it's indestructible that way.) It excels as an overhead/underhead AND is incredibly natural sounding as as a room mic...and the KSM313NE excel at these jobs as well. Both are huge sounding with the right preamp. It's also unbeatable on an acoustic guitar. It very nearly always wins in that department, and usually winds up in combination with something else. It's fantastic on horns though I also really like Cascade Fathead II's with the Lundahl Mod for this as well...and on mandolin and electric slide. And it's absolutely heaven on strings...especially violin and chello. The 121 is good on a lot of things the KSM353 is GREAT at....and the KSM313 is extremely comparable to a 121...only it's far more durable and flexible...and bigger sounding, yes. By the same logic the KSM 353 is usually fantastic on sources the 121 is merely good at and will win most shootouts with the KSM313. I prefer the KSM353 for most sources under most conditions...but the KSM313 is really quite good as well and offers some EQ curves the other can't pull off. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
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Post by ericn on May 8, 2015 14:44:42 GMT -6
Sidebar question, I've always been curious about those drum mic kits. You know, where they give you 5 mics for $500, or something like that. I never record drums here, but do enjoy planning ahead for a day when I have my own recording room. I'd like to know if any of those pre-made kits would beat just getting a few SM57's, a couple of pencil condensers, and maybe one big ass kick mic, like an RE-20. Most of the time a bunch of 57s are a better bet, but then I do have like 6 sets of dynamic drum mics, so go figure! |
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Post by nobtwiddler on May 8, 2015 16:46:47 GMT -6
Although the EarthWorks 3 mic kit (DFK-1 or DFK-2) is something special!
If used in the proper room, with the correct drummer! And if leakage is NOT a problem.
But they also make a few different close mic kits for those who prefer to mic drums close up and personal!
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Post by Guitar on May 8, 2015 20:46:15 GMT -6
I like those little e604 from sennheiser, and you can clip them right on the drum. They don't sound too far off from an SM microphone, even work on guitar amps.
Has anyone tried the Samar Audio ribbons? I hear a lot of good things, and he's on the board currently I think for questions, just saw a banner ad too.
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Post by levon on May 12, 2015 2:38:33 GMT -6
Sidebar question, I've always been curious about those drum mic kits. You know, where they give you 5 mics for $500, or something like that. I never record drums here, but do enjoy planning ahead for a day when I have my own recording room. I'd like to know if any of those pre-made kits would beat just getting a few SM57's, a couple of pencil condensers, and maybe one big ass kick mic, like an RE-20. Most of the time a bunch of 57s are a better bet, but then I do have like 6 sets of dynamic drum mics, so go figure! The other day, I tried an bunch of 57s on toms, just for shits and giggles, and was surprised how full that sounded, who wudda thunk. |
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Post by dandeurloo on May 12, 2015 7:28:08 GMT -6
I like the ev on drums as well. wondering if anyone has used them on the floor as pzm type mics. I bought a ev 635 after hearing everyone rave about it. So far I haven't liked it much. Tell me more about how you use it and where. Maybe mine is busted? |
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Post by bradd on May 12, 2015 10:32:53 GMT -6
I have a pair of EV 635a's that primary get used to stereo mic the top of my Leslie. They don't seem to win out on much else, but I should probably try them under a snare sometime.
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Post by Ward on May 12, 2015 13:31:07 GMT -6
I have a pair of EV 635a's that primary get used to stereo mic the top of my Leslie. They don't seem to win out on much else, but I should probably try them under a snare sometime. Be prepared for lots of kick and hats leakage. |
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Post by jazznoise on May 12, 2015 18:00:08 GMT -6
Actually the amount of hat bleed isn't noticeably different, and the 635a rolls off the kicks low end signifigantly. But yes, you definitely get more kick bleed.
Sometimes I try and place it so that it gives me 50/50 of each as a sort of bottom snare/kick beater mic. If it's the opposite you want, you can always sidechain the bottom head to the top with an expander. It can be for the better, as all the bleed from toms and cymbals down there is usually extremely dull.
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Post by gouge on May 12, 2015 19:08:02 GMT -6
635's on the floor about 3m out from the snare and at 45 deg from the kit is sounding good. I'll try and get a sample up in a few days. Final day of the session today.
First time trying these mics setup like this and am thinking I'll keep doing it over the next few drum sessions.
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