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Post by jazznoise on May 1, 2015 21:22:16 GMT -6
jazznoise, A popular thing in the mid-90s was to mount one PZM on a mic stand behind and just over the drummer's head, and a second in front of the kit attached to a piece of plywood. This was a method to bring out the natural ring and overtones of a kit even further, which is something we tried to minimize in the 80s and early 90s as we wanted clean tight drum sounds. The tastes turned around somewhere around 15 years ago and the move went back to tighter, cleaner drums sounds. But they went to far for the past 5 years to where drums sound like carefully executed farts and thuds, especially everything that has come out of mainstream country, new-alt and Christian worship music forms. Over the past 2 years, the shift has begun again and we are getting back to a more natural drum sound, albeit just as compressed but in your face. And it is really really stinking hard to achieve it... I'm not totally satisfied with the results I have been getting over the past year but I'm definitely becoming more satisfied. Te use of boundary mics will take it to the other end of the spectrum, and they force you to really work harder on every drum recorded on every single take. That requires an awful lot of work... just be willing to do it. There are no shortcuts and fewer ways to fix anything in the mix when you use them and rely on them in the mix. They glaringly show every ugly detail you will have overlooked... like the precise tuning of the bottom heads of toms, the one loose lug on the front head of the kick drum, the one tiny squeak in the kick or hi-hat pedals. You get my point, I'm sure. Room mics are much more forgiving (even crushed) than boundary mics are. Room mics bring more air and space into the trap kit's sound. Boundary mics bring more midrange. IMHE That's cool. I do it slightly different in that my boundary mics are floor mounted so I usually don't have the surface space/vs low end issue as it's an extremely large surface. The ply thing was an interesting turn - but ultimately the surface sized "tuned" the mic and it created difficulties. This creates a lot of the "midrangey" sound you're referring to, Mine is a pair of omnis taped to the ground, and the main idea is to get the same room balance you'd get otherwise but a longer predelay since there's no 1st order reflection from the floor. You're talking about 4 feet back usually (depending on the space) so the direct sound is fairly heavily attenuated. But however, yes, it can be tricky. But I'm definitely a "pull up your faders, there's your drumsound" type guy, so I'd rather take the hour or 2 getting the drum sound over days of fighting it in mix time. Also I find the cymbal wash can be minimized with good placement, which is almost never a bad thing. I like room mics too and in a space where I don't feel boundaries are favourable, maybe the player is much less reliant on his hardware I'll throw up an AB pair - usually the same mics, but about 2-3 feet of the ground to keep the sound focused on the hardware. I still find crushing them makes a mix "cluttered". I know that's definitely the modern style, and some people want that, but I'll usually try avoid it where it doesn't suit. I have some multitracks of this technique in a large space that should be on an old hardd rive I brought with me (I'm currently living in South Japan, so not everything from Ireland came with me). For curious ears I can put something up I'm sure. |
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Post by Randge on May 2, 2015 8:53:20 GMT -6
I have 4 boundry (PZM) mics velcro-d on tall stools to get them off of the floor and in the sweet spot. I can move them to right where I want them at any time like a mic stand. They work great for some breath when cutting acoustic instruments as well.
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Post by svart on May 2, 2015 9:41:43 GMT -6
I forget who it was, but one trick is to use some LDCs in cardioid facing a back wall, about 1" away from the wall. The close distance has a filter/compression effect similar to how a PZM sounds/works. I tried it a few times and it certainly does that, but it wasn't the sound I was looking for at the time.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 2, 2015 10:20:17 GMT -6
Sidebar question, I've always been curious about those drum mic kits. You know, where they give you 5 mics for $500, or something like that. I never record drums here, but do enjoy planning ahead for a day when I have my own recording room. I'd like to know if any of those pre-made kits would beat just getting a few SM57's, a couple of pencil condensers, and maybe one big ass kick mic, like an RE-20.
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Post by lpedrum on May 2, 2015 16:22:28 GMT -6
Sidebar question, I've always been curious about those drum mic kits. You know, where they give you 5 mics for $500, or something like that. I never record drums here, but do enjoy planning ahead for a day when I have my own recording room. I'd like to know if any of those pre-made kits would beat just getting a few SM57's, a couple of pencil condensers, and maybe one big ass kick mic, like an RE-20. Sure, a drum mic kit would work. But they're usually better for live sound and a bit of a marketing ploy. You'd probably be much happier finding your favorite snare, kick, OHs etc. Start with a Beyer M201 on the snare! |
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Post by wiz on May 2, 2015 16:37:42 GMT -6
M201 sits on my black beauty .....
cheers
Wiz
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Post by gouge on May 2, 2015 16:47:19 GMT -6
I've used a c414 about an inch off the glass window and it worked ok.
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Post by gouge on May 2, 2015 16:48:27 GMT -6
I have 4 boundry (PZM) mics velcro-d on tall stools to get them off of the floor and in the sweet spot. I can move them to right where I want them at any time like a mic stand. They work great for some breath when cutting acoustic instruments as well. love this idea. |
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Post by gouge on May 2, 2015 16:54:37 GMT -6
A stereo pair of boundary mics works best for me - usually you gotta put them either far away and stupid wide or you gotta go close and delay them to avoid too much phasing. The Albini thing, as has been discussed before, doesn't involve crushing the room mics at all. Usually just a fast compressor to catch the snare blipping on the Overheads. M/S over the front of kit, overheads and a pair of room mics from what he's said and I've seen. I personally don't like doing the crushed mic except for things like Heavy Metal where I think it's often stylistically appropriate to make the cymbals more washy. Room mics don't have the exaggerated dynamic range of close mics, and it usually takes up and awful lot of musical space that could be used by other instruments. Hello, by the way. hello to jazznoise. you're getting closer to Australia I see.
that's the thing that puts me off crushed mics. it's the over the top cymbal wash.
I read recently that albini doesn't always use his overhead mics in the mix.
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Post by fishnmusician on May 2, 2015 17:26:39 GMT -6
I have 4 boundry (PZM) mics velcro-d on tall stools to get them off of the floor and in the sweet spot. I can move them to right where I want them at any time like a mic stand. They work great for some breath when cutting acoustic instruments as well. I wanna try this. Any particular models of PZM you recommend? |
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Post by jazznoise on May 2, 2015 21:02:30 GMT -6
Sidebar question, I've always been curious about those drum mic kits. You know, where they give you 5 mics for $500, or something like that. I never record drums here, but do enjoy planning ahead for a day when I have my own recording room. I'd like to know if any of those pre-made kits would beat just getting a few SM57's, a couple of pencil condensers, and maybe one big ass kick mic, like an RE-20. It depends. I'd probably trust the Beyer ones with the cool gooseneck SDC's - but cheap they aint. I feel like slow-aquisition based on experience is the best way to go - doing sessions by yourself and with others and seeing what mics work well. The philosophy behind how you capture the instrument really effects the mic positioning and mic choice. gouge I don't know if I'd call Japan *close*, but I guess it's a step in the right direction. You should check out the summer here sometimes - think 30 degrees but with humidity in the 90% region. You can cut the air up with a knife sometimes. Interesting about Steve. I guess it depends on the dynamics of the player. Hard cymbal hitters don't leave much definition to each cymbal stroke, so getting a really dry cymbal wash adds no benefit (which is all you get in OH's with those guys). You should try out the In Utero multitracks if you're curious to here his recordings in a context. I think his understanding of space and relative ambience levels is great in that he also has room mics for vocals and guitar on his drum room mics, and they're used to great effect. Of course we haven't mentioned EQ'ing room mics but in small rooms taking out any modal junk between 300-600Hz or any boxy quality in around 800-1500Hz can make a room sound a lot nicer and a little bigger. Here's a not so great, zero processing example from last summer where we needed some big booming toms for a singer/songwriter track. First you hear the Overheads (M/S pair of cheapo ribbons with Mid and Side set about level), then a spaced pair of boundaries mixed in with them at a roughly 50/50 balance and then just the boundary pair for the last part. The M/S pair was literally just a foot on front of the kit pointing down and then the boundary mics were about 4 feet back and 6 feet apart: www.dropbox.com/s/j8uszr5si4qut7k/OH%2C%20Mix%2C%20Room.mp3?dl=0 |
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Post by Randge on May 3, 2015 13:05:17 GMT -6
I have 4 boundry (PZM) mics velcro-d on tall stools to get them off of the floor and in the sweet spot. I can move them to right where I want them at any time like a mic stand. They work great for some breath when cutting acoustic instruments as well. I wanna try this. Any particular models of PZM you recommend? I have the Shure's and like them a lot. |
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Post by Guitar on May 3, 2015 19:25:33 GMT -6
I love room mics. I use them to get that sense of air and space around the kit that I just have to hear to be happy.
I usually like a Peluso 2247 SE somewhere quite close to the kit, maybe even between the overheads, or out front a bit.
After that a couple or one EV 635a to get the ambient sound and spread.
I don't mix them to be overly obvious I just want a cohesive complete drum sound. Probably some 1176 plugin compression or something similar. Once in a while, a big smash for excitement in a mix that needs to be exciting in that way.
Now that I own some nicer condensers those might come out next time. I haven't recorded drums in a while now, shame shame!
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Post by Ward on May 3, 2015 19:47:49 GMT -6
The good old EV635a! Best ENG microphone made back in the day and a great talk-back microphone too! Guitar, I've never trusted it for any actual recording duties though. |
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Post by Guitar on May 3, 2015 20:40:08 GMT -6
You might be surprised, they have a nice crisp tone. I have a small collection of vintage EV mics of various models, can't get enough of them. Don't use them every day but they do get used.
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Post by jazznoise on May 3, 2015 21:59:31 GMT -6
You might be surprised, they have a nice crisp tone. I have a small collection of vintage EV mics of various models, can't get enough of them. Don't use them every day but they do get used. Sometimes I use my EV635a for under the snare duties, where I don't really want a lot of low end energy anyway. I think that mic really excels on brass and acoustic guitar duties, however. 12 String or a trumpet with an EV635a is just one of those turn up the fader and smile sounds. |
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Post by gouge on May 4, 2015 4:45:58 GMT -6
I like the ev on drums as well.
wondering if anyone has used them on the floor as pzm type mics.
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Post by tonycamphd on May 4, 2015 6:14:23 GMT -6
I dig a mono room mic generally(omni/8), it seems to fit into my image schemes easier, the overheads are 90% of the drum sound to me.
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Post by Ward on May 4, 2015 9:23:17 GMT -6
I dig a mono room mic generally(omni/8), it seems to fit into my image schemes easier, the overheads are 90% of the drum sound to me. Surely you must own a matched pair of Beyer MC930 mics then? They are the hands-down best mics for capturing the entire sound of the kit from an overhead position. |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 4, 2015 10:04:13 GMT -6
I dig a mono room mic generally(omni/8), it seems to fit into my image schemes easier, the overheads are 90% of the drum sound to me. Surely you must own a matched pair of Beyer MC930 mics then? They are the hands-down best mics for capturing the entire sound of the kit from an overhead position. Unfortunately i don't, I usually use over heads/all mic's dependent upon where i'm envisioning things sitting in the final image, i've never been a big fan of SDC's, they are generally to immediate for my taste, especially on a room sound that I often throw to the deepest part of a mix. I tend to like the legato effect LDC's have on most sources, sometimes they're even too much and i go ribbons. I'd almost surely pick a C12 with some distance for acoustic guitar even over the fav KM84, i have some modded sm81's and some modded MDC AT4033's that i use to fit things into more heavily populated mixes, of course just my way, YMMV. |
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Post by Ward on May 5, 2015 12:01:12 GMT -6
Surely you must own a matched pair of Beyer MC930 mics then? They are the hands-down best mics for capturing the entire sound of the kit from an overhead position. Unfortunately i don't, I usually use over heads/all mic's dependent upon where i'm envisioning things sitting in the final image, i've never been a big fan of SDC's, they are generally to immediate for my taste, especially on a room sound that I often throw to the deepest part of a mix. I tend to like the legato effect LDC's have on most sources, sometimes they're even too much and i go ribbons. I'd almost surely pick a C12 with some distance for acoustic guitar even over the fav KM84, i have some modded sm81's and some modded MDC AT4033's that i use to fit things into more heavily populated mixes, of course just my way, YMMV. Look into getting a set. They're next on my list. Best damned room mics for ANY applicaton - period. Not immediate at all, just natural and open. Great midrange without being strident. |
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Post by jimwilliams on May 7, 2015 10:40:33 GMT -6
I first used boundry layer mics back at Cal State in 1973. I was doing theater production and put a pair of ol' 635's on the floor on the edge of the stage. A thin piece of rubber was used to minimize floor vibration pickup but we knew the closer to the floor, the better it worked.
Back then PZM was not invented and there were no production boundry layer mics available. Smart AE's created their own.
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Post by winetree on May 7, 2015 18:13:29 GMT -6
In the late 70's I owned a pair of Woolensack P.Z.M.s and indeed they were homemade.
In use, They were mounted on walls, floors, and flown on 2'x2' Plexiglas panels for extended low end.
For drums they were used for O.H.s, room mics, on the floor in front of the kick drum, and even duct taped
to the drummers chest.
Latter licensed to Crown and Radio shack. I currently own 4 Crown P.Z.M.s
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Post by wiz on May 7, 2015 18:27:16 GMT -6
I remember in the early 90s we had PZMs cause they were all we could afford, this is before Rode came out.
We used to wire em up to run off two 9 V batteries (at 18V) or something like that.. I remember there were mods for them at the time.. can't remember what we did...
But they were the first "condenser" sounding mic I ever used.. I think they were made by Radio Shack (though went under the name Tandy here in Oz)
I once recorded a band rehearsal with two gaffer taped to the walls and tracked it on a porta one, and it came out surprisingly good.. for the time anyways..
I think the PZM should go in the home studio hall of fame...
cheers
Wiz
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Post by levon on May 7, 2015 23:41:35 GMT -6
I dig a mono room mic generally(omni/8), it seems to fit into my image schemes easier, the overheads are 90% of the drum sound to me. Surely you must own a matched pair of Beyer MC930 mics then? They are the hands-down best mics for capturing the entire sound of the kit from an overhead position. I use a pair of Gefell MV691s with M7 (or is it M70??) capsules for room mics, how do the Beyers compare to those, anybody knows? |
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