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Post by joseph on Mar 9, 2015 18:25:50 GMT -6
To be fair, Neumann did just release a more or less exact reissue of the U47 FET. Maybe one day they will risk a proper reissue of the KM84, and improve the components in the 87ai.
And Gefell has changed many of their mics into transformerless designs.
I think the Josephson E22s transient response especially and low mid richness is closest to the KM84's and actually extends deeper in the low end. It also seems smoother to me in the high mids than the M300 examples I've heard, with the E22S rise beginning higher and the transformer softening. It seems even less sensitive to hard string and snare attack than the KM84 and has almost indestructible brass housing. But it sound best i.e. huge placed close to the source, and is more expensive. I really like it on vocals too.
KM84s I have found just sound good within the widest range of placement around cymbals and acoustic instruments, and the mids are smooth and evenly represented throughout the whole range, not prone to peakiness or boominess anywhere. They often require little eq if at all.
The Gefells I would think with a cleaner sound and steady rise are maybe most useful at a distance, as pointed out by sll above, and when noise is an issue. And the matched pair and beautiful look is very appealing.
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Post by sll on Mar 9, 2015 18:33:26 GMT -6
So the moral of the story is to just buy a KM84? Unfortunately, yes. I keep trying to find alternatives. There are none. End of discussion.
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Post by sll on Mar 9, 2015 18:39:06 GMT -6
I think the Josephson E22s transient response especially and low mid richness is closest to the KM84's and actually extends deeper in the low end. It also seems smoother to me in the high mids than the M300 examples I've heard, with the E22S rise beginning higher and the transformer softening. It seems even less sensitive to hard string and snare attack than the KM84 and has almost indestructible brass housing. But it sound best i.e. huge placed close to the source, and is more expensive. I really like it on vocals too. I almost forgot about the Josephson E22. I auditioned one years ago for voice mic at the radio station I used to work at. I ended up using the demo mic on tons of sources for live in studio sessions. It was smoother than most SDCs currently available. It was a great mic and sounded nice on everything I used it on. Politics swayed the decision to use it for what we auditioned it for, even though it got the most votes in the blind tests. I need to revisit that mic. In the meantime, I've learned my quest will only be satisfied by a KM84, or most certainly a KM54
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2015 18:48:07 GMT -6
Are good KM84's hard to find? I mean - are they a "they all sound different" mic? Or could I get one from VK and feel pretty confident?
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 9, 2015 18:54:24 GMT -6
I have a pair of M300s. I bought them to do freelance orchestral recording, using them in XY and ORTF. They are very big in the bottom end and very quiet. I do find them a little peaky in the 3-5K range. Not as much as the KM184, but more than a KM84, and the KM140s (which is what I was hoping they would be like). I've used them a lot for acoustic guitar recording, often just one placed about 4 feet back. They are very detailed and rich at that distance. Any closer and they are too bright for me. I did an SDC comparison a while back using the M300, AKG452, modded Oktava MC-012, and the Beezneez Lulu. I need to do the comparison again as I borrowed a KM84 to throw into the mix. Hi Scott, hey bud, what's your take on the Oktava Mk012? did you mod them? Dan seems to think they are real nice, how do they compare to the 84's? same Q for dandeurloothanx
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Post by sll on Mar 9, 2015 18:54:46 GMT -6
Are good KM84's hard to find? I mean - are they a "they all sound different" mic? Or could I get one from VK and feel pretty confident? I think they are fairly consistent, at least the ones I've used. We had around 6 of them at the studio I used to work at and they all were very similar. Same with others I've used over the years. I think VK would be the best bet over evil bay? I think that's where the inconsistencies surface more as people beat them up and then sell them? I would hope VK would have some QC process to test them and fix/reject the bad apples.
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Post by dandeurloo on Mar 9, 2015 19:09:38 GMT -6
I have a pair of M300s. I bought them to do freelance orchestral recording, using them in XY and ORTF. They are very big in the bottom end and very quiet. I do find them a little peaky in the 3-5K range. Not as much as the KM184, but more than a KM84, and the KM140s (which is what I was hoping they would be like). I've used them a lot for acoustic guitar recording, often just one placed about 4 feet back. They are very detailed and rich at that distance. Any closer and they are too bright for me. I did an SDC comparison a while back using the M300, AKG452, modded Oktava MC-012, and the Beezneez Lulu. I need to do the comparison again as I borrowed a KM84 to throw into the mix. Hi Scott, hey bud, what's your take on the Oktava Mk012? did you mod them? Dan seems to think they are real nice, how do they compare to the 84's? same Q for dandeurloothanx The MK012 I have used a bunch at a buddies studio are the Joly Modded ones with Joly capsules. I think that makes a difference. They aren't as rich and smooth as my 84's but dang for the money I would buy them any day. They sound more modern but really nice at the same time. I have thought about grabbing a pair to use for things like snare drum and other places I don't want to stick my KM84's.
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 9, 2015 19:14:19 GMT -6
thanx D, it seems the street price is locked at $1,200 for a KM84, does that seem right? if so, not bad for a mic that gets so much love.
btw, HBD 8)
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Post by joseph on Mar 9, 2015 19:18:45 GMT -6
The problem is if you really need a matched pair, you need vintage capsules compared by ear by an expert. Because of the wider tolerances, spec, and inconsistent use and aging of KK84 capsules. So even a matched pair from 1980 won't necessarily be a matched pair today. But if the capsule and vents are in good shape and the caps don't need replacing, the KM84 will most likely sound good. See the bottom post on the subject repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=29149.40;wap2It seems like usually the mids are pretty consistent, but the low end and top end can differ a bit, and the imaging can drift between them as a result. I would think unless two mics are totally off from each other within the +/-4db spec, a pair will sound good on most anything outside of the most critical ensemble/orchestral applications. But yeah, that's why people who do that kind of work rely on Schoeps, which sound less vibey anyway. The E22S is an amazing microphone, sounds almost like a cross between an SDC and an LDC. Needs to be placed closer to the source than the KM84 I think, and has more low end and proximity effect plus a very smooth lift in the highs, unlike the pretty much flat KM84. But again reiterating, the transient response and off axis predictability is very similar to the KM84's. And I think it's usually better on and definitely more durable for close drum and guitar cab miking, and vocals but maybe not quite as cool as the KM84 is for cymbals. That said, the cymbal bleed in the E22S is so so good. Plus you don't need an external pad, and it's quieter with a good preamp.
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Post by sll on Mar 9, 2015 19:29:24 GMT -6
I have a pair of M300s. I bought them to do freelance orchestral recording, using them in XY and ORTF. They are very big in the bottom end and very quiet. I do find them a little peaky in the 3-5K range. Not as much as the KM184, but more than a KM84, and the KM140s (which is what I was hoping they would be like). I've used them a lot for acoustic guitar recording, often just one placed about 4 feet back. They are very detailed and rich at that distance. Any closer and they are too bright for me. I did an SDC comparison a while back using the M300, AKG452, modded Oktava MC-012, and the Beezneez Lulu. I need to do the comparison again as I borrowed a KM84 to throw into the mix. Hi Scott, hey bud, what's your take on the Oktava Mk012? did you mod them? Dan seems to think they are real nice, how do they compare to the 84's? same Q for dandeurloothanx Hey Tony, I did the mod to my Oktava years ago. I think it was an article by Scott Dorsey in Recording magazine? It involved replacing the FET with a 2SK170 and replacing most of the leaky electrolytic caps along with a ceramic cap they use off the capsule. It smoothed it out a lot from stock. The mic is pretty good overall in terms of being flatter. It has ridiculous low end to it which is not always flattering on acoustic guitars. It didn't make it a KM84 by any means, but a very useable mic. I need to find my comparison files and join Soundcloud so I can post them.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,951
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Post by ericn on Mar 9, 2015 20:29:59 GMT -6
The thing with 84s is they were considered a utility mic, and saw lots of abuse, so finding a like sounding pair is a challenge. While 84's and Schoeps are the standards all FET SDC's are judged by I say rather than chase theses expensive pencils try your hand at coloring with some of the lesser valued SDC's ! Sony, Sennhieser, Calrec as well as C460s modded by our own JW are all great mics. A pair of SM81s is still a great piece of kit.
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Post by wiz on Mar 9, 2015 20:33:48 GMT -6
life's too short...
KM84
8)
Wiz
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Post by drbill on Mar 9, 2015 23:00:19 GMT -6
So the moral of the story is to just buy a KM84? Haha!! That's where I would head. I like the Gefell SDCs though. Brightness wise, they lie mid-way between a KM84 and vintage style C451. If that extra zing suits you, then that's the ticket over a KM84. If not, I generally reach for the KM84 over the 692/M70 as my preference is for more natural and mellow highs. :-) As an alternative, the Joly modded Oktava 012 is VERY close in voicing to the KM84 though. As is evidenced by the time I cut 13 back and forth edits on the same take (Ac Gtr) between a KM84 and Joly modded 012 and no one could hear all the cuts. (I'll try to find that thread....) Those mics were freakishly close. But, the KM84 does hold a SDC soft spot in my heart. The Joly Oktava's are KILLER (and my preference) in Omni though. For LDC's, or for brighter needs, the Gefell SDC's (preferably the transformer coupled mv692's) are unstoppable. For all around sheer versatility and world class sound, the 692 series with it's myriad of capsule heads is off the hook. Oh, one last note : The Joly Oktavamod 012 has a KILLER LDC capsule head for it - the MJE K47H I think it's called. It's the closest sound to a U67 that I've heard so far. (Haven't heard the latest crop of 67 clones out there though.) It's obviously a FET mic, but the thing just sounds like a vintage 67 to me. That alone puts the 012 on the same level with the 692 series for me as it's got SDC card, omni & hyper caps as well as the LDC K47H cap. I can only imagine how awesome it would be with a nice tube pre like the D4....
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Post by drbill on Mar 9, 2015 23:08:08 GMT -6
Found it. For those who feel the 012 can't compare..... This link is to a little thing I talked Michael Joly into after I recorded some Ac Gtrs one day with both mics up and 1/2" apart. I fell into it completely by accident, sent him an email playing the intercuts for him and we were both flabbergasted - and he stepped up and made it into a fun contest. I can tell you that the guys that won used analyzing software, and they STILL didn't get it completely right. Do they always sound so close? Well....no not always. But on this day, there's no matched pair of 84's that would have sounded closer on stringed instruments - and that's where I love them the most. The contest is long over, but if you're looking for a KM84 or KM84 option, you should check this first. www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end-theory/487114-all-end-all-km84-sound-alike-contest-win-pair-sdcs.htmlOh, as far as "matched pair" KM84's, I have found them all to be pretty consistent for an older mic. Close enough that I don't bother thinking about which ones I pull out of the locker when I go for a pair. Maybe I'm just lucky?!?!? For disclosure, in my general usage over the years, the Joly 012 has a TAD tiny, tiny, bit more low end girth than my vintage KM84's but it's possible that age is getting to them. And up top, just the tiniest bit more "air". Again, could be the modern vs old adage there though.... The all important mid range is where they rock for me though.
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Post by svart on Mar 10, 2015 10:07:26 GMT -6
Eh?
MK012 close to a KM84?
Not by a long shot from what I've experienced. I had them side by side and the KM84 blew the modded MK012s away. I couldn't afford the KM84s at the time and opted for the MK012 since I figured I was just inexperienced since so many kept telling me that the MK012 was so much like the KM84.
I was never terribly happy with them. I ended up with some KM184s which I liked a ton better than the MK012s.
I think the Gefell mics with the nickel capsules blow everything else away except for maybe some Shoeps mics.
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Post by joseph on Mar 10, 2015 11:07:15 GMT -6
This is nothing new, but I'm not convinced that transformerless condensers are ever the right way to go for stringed instruments.
Every instance of a transformerless revision seems to sound worse than the previous model with the same capsule. Of course, there can be other cost cutting measures that can affect the sound.
Even the smoothest capsule like the Schoeps MK22 I bet would sound more interesting with a transformer amp like the old 221B. One can directly compare the old Gefell M70/94 with 692 and UM70 to the current M294/5 and UMT70S models. People seem to prefer the old ones. But the new designs are more cost effective to produce.
Something about the way the transients and chords are smoothed and the smearing in transformer designs, while technically a deficiency, just sounds more musical to me. An acoustic guitar or violin just doesn't sound quite that clean and super detailed to the human ear in a good room. It reminds me of the time I tried 80/20 strings on my Martin and hated how each chord sounded like a bunch of too bright independent notes. Went back to phosphor bronze immediately.
People find the right balance for their tastes, though. You can still have a relatively clean transformer output, like a Lundahl which seems to be a good middle ground between "accuracy" and smoothness.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 10, 2015 12:33:12 GMT -6
VK just quoted me $1750 for a KM84 with 6 months warranty...Only $650 more than one I found on CL. I think not.
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Post by drbill on Mar 10, 2015 12:48:00 GMT -6
VK just quoted me $1750 for a KM84 with 6 months warranty...Only $650 more than one I found on CL. I think not. Yeah, that's too much. Try to find one on one of the boards vs. craigslist or ebay. $1000-1250 is a fair price.
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Post by sll on Mar 10, 2015 13:45:09 GMT -6
VK just quoted me $1750 for a KM84 with 6 months warranty...Only $650 more than one I found on CL. I think not. Yikes. They are proud of their gear. Too high. I've not been too pleased with VK recently. This price quote confirms it for me that I won't be doing any more business with them in the near future.
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Post by Ward on Mar 10, 2015 15:57:58 GMT -6
IMHO... The Gefell M300s and the Beyer 940s blow the doors off Neumann KM84s, but in different ways.
The Beyers are the most life-like SDCs there are, and think they're LDCs at times. You hear a stereo drum recording made with those alone and you think you're in the room in front of the kit.
The Gefells are 'already sweetened'. And the perfect amount and type of audio sweetening. You hear an acoustic guitar recorded with just ONE (and with the exception of Neumann KM54 and M582) you think "wow, that's what an acoustic guitar is supposed to sound like!".
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Post by lpedrum on Mar 10, 2015 16:08:47 GMT -6
IMHO... The Gefell M300s and the Beyer 940s blow the doors off Neumann KM84s, but in different ways. The Beyers are the most life-like SDCs there are, and think they're LDCs at times. You hear a stereo drum recording made with those alone and you think you're in the room in front of the kit. The Gefells are 'already sweetened'. And the perfect amount and type of audio sweetening. You hear an acoustic guitar recorded with just ONE (and with the exception of Neumann KM54 and M582) you think "wow, that's what an acoustic guitar is supposed to sound like!". I'm enjoying reading this thread as I'm always trying to figure out the best way to record acoustic guitar. But part of me knows that it's a very subjective topic and not everyone agrees on what a great sounding acoustic guitar should sound like. If everyone liked what I liked Taylor would have been out of business years ago! That Gefell does sound sweet to my ears though. I'd love to hear it A/B'd with a Beyer 940. I'm a big fan of Beyers but haven't heard the 940 on guitar.
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Post by jsteiger on Mar 10, 2015 16:09:45 GMT -6
Bill Bradley has a KM84 up on his site. $1350 but maybe he will come down a bit Johnkenn
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Post by Ward on Mar 10, 2015 16:17:04 GMT -6
Bill Bradley has a KM84 up on his site. $1350 but maybe he will come down a bit JohnkennNot by much. Mr. Bradley always has fair asking prices.
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Post by joelhamilton on Mar 10, 2015 21:50:04 GMT -6
I'll take the KM84 taste test challenge. Somebody loan Kennedy one and we will do a shoot out. And I'll actually play the same thing. With so many variables involved I simply have to hear for myself which mic is better because the gear may have a wide quality swing but so do the ears. One mans nirvana is another mans hell.
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Post by jsteiger on Mar 10, 2015 22:44:14 GMT -6
Get in touch with Rolff!
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