|
Post by kcatthedog on Dec 30, 2015 4:35:22 GMT -6
On the UA forum I read about UA pci-e cards ( if this is in an external non ua chassis, it isn't a UA satalite , its a pci-e card in a chassis) in many different configurations/systems. I have read about a couple of defective cards, but typically problems arise from cables and chassis connections. So, I don't think card throughput and or power are the issue, unless that stems form the motu comm/cable seating problem ? I run an octo pci-e card in an owc chassis, apple tbolt cable and have had 2 apollos. I have used differetn sampling rates without incident and many at ua forum use different sampling rates without incident. Is it the case, that this pci-e card, chassis and cable worked fine with the apollo and the motu interface and its single tb port is the new variable ? The apollo has 2 tb ports so obviously setting it up would be more straight forward: 1 to mini , 1 to chassis. There certainly have been failed pci-e cards but typically the TB comms problems I have read about have been cable faults and seating problems ? I know this sounds like an apollo fanboy post but I hope this gets sorted out as I really like what I read about the new motu 16 and have been thinking about trying one
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Dec 30, 2015 11:34:03 GMT -6
It's a Octo satellite. First party.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Dec 30, 2015 11:37:12 GMT -6
Dan.....typical session rate? That's effectively the same thing he's doing other than his being an Octo. But, his works fine at 48khz--not 88. I thought I typed this before, but since I don't see it scanning up the page--what happens if you plug all three in, run the a full session at double rate, but you don't actually USE UAD plug ins? If that works....add UAD plugs until you get the crackling. Also, if you're using a >10.9 OSX....make sure to try 96khz. I don't know the details, but they did something that made the system clock and all system sounds 48khz or something....part of the CoreAudio overhaul that broke everything. 96 being a multiplier of the system clock might change the game for real time performance. Brainstorming aloud....hopefully something helps and you're not just bumping your head against the bandwidth limits. I'll give this a go and see what happens. Definitely open to suggestions.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Dec 30, 2015 11:40:23 GMT -6
I can easily do 96k. I wonder if the satellite doesn't have the proper pass thru speeds or if it needs more power? You could also try another TB cable. Maybe one of those is messed up. I have heard of that happening a lot. Hmmm...you would think that UA wouldn't have designed a box that can't handle high sample rates? Though, I think they do expect you to place the interface 1st in the chain. But I thought that really didn't matter too much? I'll swap out the cable to see if that makes a diff.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Dec 30, 2015 11:45:01 GMT -6
Thx popman I thought I read it was in a chassis Hmm, the plot thickens, I haven't read about any problems with the new tbolt satellites at ua forum. Does the satellite work fine with the apollo all rates or have you not used it that way ?
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Dec 30, 2015 12:57:35 GMT -6
Having removed all plugs from the session, I still get crackle.
And as far as I can tell, it's not a cable issue. Though, a new problem has arisen. After swapping out a cable, I no longer get any signal coming into the Motu from the DAW. I switch over to USB and all is right with the universe.
Continuing the troubleshooting...I'd rather be making music. Not how I like to spend my time.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Dec 30, 2015 13:05:04 GMT -6
Ok, so I just swapped out the Motu with the Apollo, same place in the signal chain - dead last - and it works like a champ.
So, evidently the problem lays with the Motu. Right?
|
|
|
Post by tasteliketape on Dec 30, 2015 13:08:42 GMT -6
I was told thunderbolt cables should have thunderbolt insignia on top of the plug when inserted a friend was told by UAD they will still go in upside down when he was trouble shooting his
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Dec 30, 2015 13:13:58 GMT -6
They WILL go in backwards, which is BS in my opinion. Everything is plugged in correctly on my end, though.
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Dec 30, 2015 14:11:06 GMT -6
Yeah, while technically, it sounds like a combination--not just motu per se, doesn't change the end result for you on your system.
I would ask MotU....if they can't offer an option for it working with the UAD, it's not going to be the box for you. With an Octo accelerator, I imagine you're pretty heavily invested in the UAD line. if it's all new, I'd point out that a A16 with free Quad gives you new conversion and 8 DSP chips for the same price as the 16a and an Octo Satellite. All first party if this is a new exchangeable purchase for the system.
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Dec 30, 2015 14:12:20 GMT -6
But, then I'm sure somewhere in the 16 pages, there's reasoning why you wanted to go that way.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Dec 30, 2015 14:43:22 GMT -6
What are my limitations running this via USB?
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Dec 30, 2015 18:52:32 GMT -6
Ah you mean the motu cus neither the apollo or the octo will currently run on usb ?
not to rain on the motu parade but you have like one day to still qualify for the new quad tb satellite with the purchase of a new apollo
Is thinking about a new apollo 16 with its better DA an option and selling the free quad satellite to reduce cost an option ?
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Dec 31, 2015 11:01:36 GMT -6
Ah you mean the motu cus neither the apollo or the octo will currently run on usb ? not to rain on the motu parade but you have like one day to still qualify for the new quad tb satellite with the purchase of a new apollo Is thinking about a new apollo 16 with its better DA an option and selling the free quad satellite to reduce cost an option ? So, that has been a thought of mine. I have an opportunity right now to pick up a new Apollo 16 for $2450, coupled with the satellite offer, that's a heck of a deal. The best I'll ever get. But, it's not going to be a better interface than the 16a. My Motu has the BLA premium mod, and it's serious beast. No way the Apollo's converters are going to sound better. Different, yes. So, even after selling the quad satellite after I get it in a month or two, I'm still going to lose money swapping out the Motu for the Apollo. Then, I've got to consider the additional costs of the Apollo. I'm gonna need to build some dsub cables. Also, the Apollo doesn't have any spdif or optical ports, so in order to utilize any specialized converters (svartbox or RM), I'm gonna need AES to SPDIF cables. All told, that's easily another few hundred dollars. I guess then it's a matter of workflow. Do I like UA's console better or Motu's mixer? Admittedly, I'm more familiar with UA's workflow right now, but I will say that the Motu is way more flexible in terms of routing, auxes, etc. I'll lose out on tracking with plugs, but to be honest, I only ever monitored with them, and never really printed anything serious. I'm really making an effort to get more out of the box anyways, so I'd rather track through hardware. Motu's tech support has been really responsive so far. Granted, it's the holidays, so I can't expect immediate solutions, but sometimes I was getting responses in less than 15 minutes. Sometimes it took UA a week to get back with me. It sounds like my problem should be fixable. I mean, dandeurloo is running a pretty similar setup, and it's rock solid for him. It ought to be for me, as well. Worst case scenario, I have to run the Motu via USB. So what? Haven't had a glitch so far. Is thunderbolt going to sound different? Absolutely not. I have no plans to expand the system or use AVB. I'm happy with 18 channels of (arguably one of the best) converters out there. Plus, it's nice to know that expansion can come relatively cheap, unlike the Apollo, where expansion will cost you another interface. I don't know. Just kinda thinking out loud. Any serious issues tracking 18 channels at higher sample rates via USB? I mean, that would be the only thing that I couldn't look past.
|
|
|
Post by winetree on Dec 31, 2015 11:36:29 GMT -6
I need a muli-channel interface and I was thinking about this being the last day for the Apollo deal. But after reading the above it seems like the MOTU is the way to go? Does the stock MOTU sound better than the Apollo? Any further help in this decision?
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Dec 31, 2015 12:18:45 GMT -6
I need a muli-channel interface and I was thinking about this being the last day for the Apollo deal. But after reading the above it seems like the MOTU is the way to go? Does the stock MOTU sound better than the Apollo? Any help further help in this decision? Are you in need of UAD DSP? If so, then the UA deal is pretty good. If not, then the Motu stuff is definitely on par with other top shelf conversion, including the Apollo, and at a less expensive price point. 16 channels of motu conversion is half the cost of an Apollo 16.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Dec 31, 2015 12:37:20 GMT -6
Your call. Certainly the apollo routing could be more flexible. You might be pleasantly surprised by the new apollo 16 sound and it does have the top of the line DA. Can you use the apollo 16's 2 channels of AES/EBU digital I/O ? The apollo's are a higher apparent price point but you are also getting a hybrid system with on board dsp whether that is the right work flow for any one is a peronal decision. I got a new apollo 8 quad in August for roughly $2 grand from proaudiostar and now they give you the quad satellite which retails for over $1200 usd, so the net price if you sell the satellite is very attractive or if you keep it its liek a 33% price drop. Today is last day for apollo deal ( I just got an email fro proaudiostar ) I am sure motu will get you sorted out its just frustrating now !
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Dec 31, 2015 12:45:57 GMT -6
What are my limitations running this via USB? Do you use all 32channels at once at double rate? If not, likely none. Potentially a LITTLE more latency--but given that your native mixer will be full of INSANELY latent UAD plug ins, having to compensate for THOSE....that will be much more noticable than the slightly bigger OS level USB buffer. But, if you're just using 16x2 to track....and/or 2x16 to overdub and sum externally....I wouldn't think you'd see an issue using the MOTU over USB. If you were really running 16x16 at 88.2/96khz SIMULTAENOUS (ie like 16 hardware inserts during mix time or 16 preamps in to track WHILE outputting to a 16 channel desk for cue)....I would think you would be living pretty close to the USB2 limitations.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Dec 31, 2015 12:58:00 GMT -6
What are my limitations running this via USB? Do you use all 32channels at once at double rate? If not, likely none. Potentially a LITTLE more latency--but given that your native mixer will be full of INSANELY latent UAD plug ins, having to compensate for THOSE....that will be much more noticable than the slightly bigger OS level USB buffer. But, if you're just using 16x2 to track....and/or 2x16 to overdub and sum externally....I wouldn't think you'd see an issue using the MOTU over USB. If you were really running 16x16 at 88.2/96khz SIMULTAENOUS (ie like 16 hardware inserts during mix time or 16 preamps in to track WHILE outputting to a 16 channel desk for cue)....I would think you would be living pretty close to the USB2 limitations. I could see myself using 16 hardware inserts at some point in the near future.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Jan 11, 2016 9:32:56 GMT -6
I've been through some troubleshooting, and wanted to update this thread.
I managed to get a monitor (television , actually) hooked up to the HDMI input of my mac mini. Now the thunderbolt chain is 16a -> UAD Octo Satellite -> mac mini. With this chain, there are no artifacts in the audio. Playback is crystal clear.
Here is a list of configurations that I've tried so far:
16a -> apple thunderbolt display -> UAD Octo satellite -> mac mini all on the thunderbolt bus = artifacts (clicks, pops, crackle) at high sample rates
Apollo -> apple thunderbolt display -> UAD Octo satellite -> mac mini all on the thunderbolt bus = works perfectly
16a -> apple thunderbolt display -> mac mini all on the thunderbolt bus = works perfectly
16a -> UAD Octo satellite -> mac mini all on the thunderbolt bus = works perfectly
So, considering the testing that I've done, can we assume that this is NOT a UAD issue (considering that it just worked perfectly in the 16a ->UAD satellite -> mac mini chain)? Also, can we assume this is NOT a general thunderbolt bandwidth issue or an issue with the number of devices on the thunderbolt bus (considering that it worked perfectly in the Apollo -> apple thunderbolt display -> UAD satellite -> mac mini chain)?
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Jan 11, 2016 10:43:33 GMT -6
I doubt it's a bandwidth limitation so much as a resource requesting timing issue. The Apollo is likely a FW device--not equivalent. Apple would simply carve off the 400mbps or whatever for the FIREWIRE chip....and then the Apollo is in it's own little freeway managed by the FW chips...
I started to look at the TB Display, honestly wondering why anyone would buy one....and I got an answer--it's a hub that turns a laptop into a desktop--gigabit ethernet, extra USB, etc--not "just" a display. Anything plug into that? If so--unplug all of that. A GB Ethernet constantly grabbing time on the buss with that much audio and video? An Ilok doing random polling at USB2 speed....that all sounds like it would be as much a potential issue as not the the big boys.
Have you asked Apple? Phrase it...."my two TB audio devices work if I connect an HDMI monitor, but then when I plug in the TB display....crackles in the audio-is this normal? does the display need it's own TB port?"
If you reach a stalemate, I know my own answer would be SIMPLE. You can get a nice big 27" crisp display with all three STANDARD video connections for a few hundo. I also wonder if the $15 adpater I just bought to converter my TB on the laptop to all standard video outs works in reverse? Like is there a $15 thing that will give the TB Display an HDMI input port? Anyone know the answer to that? If a MiniDisplayPort to HDMI can just be hung off the back of the monitor you like and already own--cheapest fix.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Jan 11, 2016 15:43:07 GMT -6
I doubt it's a bandwidth limitation so much as a resource requesting timing issue. The Apollo is likely a FW device--not equivalent. Apple would simply carve off the 400mbps or whatever for the FIREWIRE chip....and then the Apollo is in it's own little freeway managed by the FW chips... I started to look at the TB Display, honestly wondering why anyone would buy one....and I got an answer--it's a hub that turns a laptop into a desktop--gigabit ethernet, extra USB, etc--not "just" a display. Anything plug into that? If so--unplug all of that. A GB Ethernet constantly grabbing time on the buss with that much audio and video? An Ilok doing random polling at USB2 speed....that all sounds like it would be as much a potential issue as not the the big boys. Have you asked Apple? Phrase it...."my two TB audio devices work if I connect an HDMI monitor, but then when I plug in the TB display....crackles in the audio-is this normal? does the display need it's own TB port?" If you reach a stalemate, I know my own answer would be SIMPLE. You can get a nice big 27" crisp display with all three STANDARD video connections for a few hundo. I also wonder if the $15 adpater I just bought to converter my TB on the laptop to all standard video outs works in reverse? Like is there a $15 thing that will give the TB Display an HDMI input port? Anyone know the answer to that? If a MiniDisplayPort to HDMI can just be hung off the back of the monitor you like and already own--cheapest fix. Nope, nothings plugged into the Apple display. I would think if there was a bandwidth issue with the display, I would have had problems running my thunderbolt Apollo in the same chain. But everything worked just fine using the Apollo over thunderbolt (Apollo -> Apple Display -> UAD Satellite -> Mac Mini). I've thought about switching up monitors as a solution. Might even come out ahead, dollar wise. I've also looked into an adapter to run my display over HDMI. That would probably be the ideal solution. However, I can't seem to find anything. It might not be possible to convert. Also, it might come with some limitations, such as capping the resolution at 1080. At that point, I might as well find a cheaper monitor. Anyone come across female thunderbolt to HDMI converters?
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 11, 2016 16:37:46 GMT -6
Glad you figured out a signal flow that works for you !
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Jan 11, 2016 17:11:02 GMT -6
Glad you figured out a signal flow that works for you ! Thanks, but nothing has been figured out yet.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 11, 2016 17:21:26 GMT -6
I thought you said no crackling with the new monitor or was that just with the apollo and you still have a problem if the motu is the interface ?
If no noise in the one system configuration/signal flow to me that confirms that the octo and cables are not suspect ?
|
|