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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 31, 2015 21:36:15 GMT -6
We can go straight to Blackbird and get 30 U47's if we wanted...
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Post by ben on Jan 31, 2015 21:38:26 GMT -6
We can go straight to Blackbird and get 30 U47's if we wanted... That's perfect! Set up all 30 of them to see if they all sound different!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 31, 2015 21:38:33 GMT -6
And maybe I'm misreading Yotonic's reply...if I am, I apologize...
Did I misinterpret?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 31, 2015 21:39:06 GMT -6
We can go straight to Blackbird and get 30 U47's if we wanted... That's perfect! Set up all 30 of them to see if they all sound different! Well, it does cost money...
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Post by ben on Jan 31, 2015 22:01:01 GMT -6
That's perfect! Set up all 30 of them to see if they all sound different! Well, it does cost money... I got 5 on it.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 31, 2015 22:09:23 GMT -6
maybe you don't like hot blondes either The only chicks I don't like are bald... on their head.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 31, 2015 22:12:22 GMT -6
And maybe I'm misreading Yotonic's reply...if I am, I apologize... Did I misinterpret? Can't say but let's remember that something like over 90% of communication is non-verbal and here we are reading so much into what we have read and typed about the abstraction of our personal difference of appreciation for the sonic differences of a 60 year old mike when no two of the existing original ones would sound the same and then comparing that amorphous abstraction to a new modern day recreation of the original mike; its a mugs game. I never expected my mk-u47 to sound exactly like anybody's ideal original 47, but I do think max's mk-u47 will have a very special quality and that will be what makes it unique. Cat5 and cowboy have both said its a great sounding mike. I could hear the presence in the very first recording cowboy posted with it. I was 2 seconds into the vocal and I thought wow, thats got to be cowboy's mk-u47 and it was; that's good enough for me !
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Post by yotonic on Jan 31, 2015 22:32:45 GMT -6
Hey John yes my analogy came off wrong in my post. I like Tony and pretty much don't disagree with him. I was trying to say, that if you hear something you like about a piece of gear you shouldn't have to prove you hear it, if that makes any practical sense. The food analogy was probably a fail, but basically I know a few guys with the MK47 who love it but also hear and acknowledge some of the very expensive albeit subtle characteristics that make a good vintage 47 so sought after. Sorry if my post came off wrong Tony, 12 hour work day.
And I don't know much about mic building just what little I've gleaned from being old. I didn't build my MK47 Toby Foster did mine for me. At the time he had several vintage U47s on his bench, one which used to be mine. He was impressed with the MK47 and I know he built one for a friend. But at the same time he explained to me a number of the reasons that a good vintage U47 is so hard to approximate, from the tube, to the capsule, circuitry etc, things we have all heard before. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade just pointing out my personal experience that I know is shared by a number of others who have owned both the MK47 and a vintage 47. It's really hard to respond to some of the arguments you hear people make about vintage mics being BS. Usually I pass but this is a pretty safe place to share your honest sentiments. And I think I was one of the first guys to offer to buy your MK47 if you don't like it. I'm sure it will be a great build.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 31, 2015 23:07:07 GMT -6
Hey John yes my analogy came off wrong in my post. I like Tony and pretty much don't disagree with him. I was trying to say, that if you hear something you like about a piece of gear you shouldn't have to prove you hear it, if that makes any practical sense. The food analogy was probably a fail, but basically I know a few guys with the MK47 who love it but also hear and acknowledge some of the very expensive albeit subtle characteristics that make a good vintage 47 so sought after. Sorry if my post came off wrong, 12 hour work day. And I don't know much about mic building just what little I've gleaned from being old. I didn't build my MK47 Toby Foster did mine for me. At the time he had several vintage U47s on his bench, one which used to be mine. He was impressed with the MK47 and I know he built one for a friend. But at the same time he explained to me a number of the reasons that a good vintage U47 is so hard to approximate, from the tube, to the capsule, circuitry etc. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade just pointing out my personal experience that I know is shared by a number of others who have owned both the MK47 and a vintage 47. It's really hard to respond to some of the arguments you hear people make about vintage mics being BS. Usually I pass but this is a pretty safe place to share your honest sentiments. And I think I was one of the first guys to offer to buy your MK47 if you don't like it. I'm sure it will be a great build. Understood...I figured I just wasn't getting it, so didn't mean to come off like a jerk myself. I agree that with the really best U-47's - there's just something about them. I've experienced that more with vintage 1073's and new ones/clones...they usually just don't match up for some reason...whether it's the amount of silver that was allowed in the metal in the transformers or whatever they can't put in it these days or the lead in the paint - I don't know. I'll be interested to see how this one matches up. I'll be honest if it doesn't blow my skirt up. I know I could sell it...
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 31, 2015 23:08:59 GMT -6
Damn - after re-reading my post, mine was pretty obnoxious itself. Glad we're all straight! Onward and upward.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 1, 2015 0:08:52 GMT -6
Hey John yes my analogy came off wrong in my post. I like Tony and pretty much don't disagree with him. I was trying to say, that if you hear something you like about a piece of gear you shouldn't have to prove you hear it, if that makes any practical sense. The food analogy was probably a fail, but basically I know a few guys with the MK47 who love it but also hear and acknowledge some of the very expensive albeit subtle characteristics that make a good vintage 47 so sought after. Sorry if my post came off wrong, 12 hour work day. And I don't know much about mic building just what little I've gleaned from being old. I didn't build my MK47 Toby Foster did mine for me. At the time he had several vintage U47s on his bench, one which used to be mine. He was impressed with the MK47 and I know he built one for a friend. But at the same time he explained to me a number of the reasons that a good vintage U47 is so hard to approximate, from the tube, to the capsule, circuitry etc. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade just pointing out my personal experience that I know is shared by a number of others who have owned both the MK47 and a vintage 47. It's really hard to respond to some of the arguments you hear people make about vintage mics being BS. Usually I pass but this is a pretty safe place to share your honest sentiments. And I think I was one of the first guys to offer to buy your MK47 if you don't like it. I'm sure it will be a great build. Understood...I figured I just wasn't getting it, so didn't mean to come off like a jerk myself. I agree that with the really best U-47's - there's just something about them. I've experienced that more with vintage 1073's and new ones/clones...they usually just don't match up for some reason...whether it's the amount of silver that was allowed in the metal in the transformers or whatever they can't put in it these days or the lead in the paint - I don't know. I'll be interested to see how this one matches up. I'll be honest if it doesn't blow my skirt up. I know I could sell it... Speaking of 1073's, the couple I used didn't blow my skirt up. Vintage and probably not in top top shape, but probably the reason that I haven't grabbed a clone yet. The new heritage compressor/pre combo is difficult to resist though...besides my lack of funds.
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 3, 2015 1:48:27 GMT -6
well, apologies to JK for taking longer than i'd like, i knocked out a good portion of this thing up to now, i'll be hitting the high Z portion tomorrow, the mic is definitely harder to build than the PSU IMO, not "hard" per say, just tedious and i'm a pain in my own ass with the details so? This thing is wired with silver solder/silver coated teflon wire everywhere. The PCB boards for the resistors off the tranny were green, so i painted them black so it'd look cooler, i used shrink tube on everything to relieve stress from the wires that take a pretty hard bending to route, i could see people running into trouble there if you don't use it. Anyway, getting closer 8)
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Post by wiz on Feb 3, 2015 2:56:09 GMT -6
Thats beautiful
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 3, 2015 7:58:57 GMT -6
Looks great, Tony!
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Post by svart on Feb 3, 2015 8:19:33 GMT -6
Understood...I figured I just wasn't getting it, so didn't mean to come off like a jerk myself. I agree that with the really best U-47's - there's just something about them. I've experienced that more with vintage 1073's and new ones/clones...they usually just don't match up for some reason...whether it's the amount of silver that was allowed in the metal in the transformers or whatever they can't put in it these days or the lead in the paint - I don't know. I'll be interested to see how this one matches up. I'll be honest if it doesn't blow my skirt up. I know I could sell it... Speaking of 1073's, the couple I used didn't blow my skirt up. Vintage and probably not in top top shape, but probably the reason that I haven't grabbed a clone yet. The new heritage compressor/pre combo is difficult to resist though...besides my lack of funds. First time I used vintage neve anything I wasn't blown away either. You don't really "get" it until it's time to mix, and then the details emerge, at least for me. Also, I think certain sources either "like" or "dislike" vintage neves more than other preamps. I can use my 312s on pretty much anything with any mic and it sounds good. On some sources the neves just sounds strange. I can't really explain it, but it's not quite right. Even my clones do that same thing, so it's just the way of the vintage Neve preamp, not necessarily of one model or another.
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Post by svart on Feb 3, 2015 8:21:40 GMT -6
well, apologies to JK for taking longer than i'd like, i knocked out a good portion of this thing up to now, i'll be hitting the high Z portion tomorrow, the mic is definitely harder to build than the PSU IMO, not "hard" per say, just tedious and i'm a pain in my own ass with the details so? This thing is wired with silver solder/silver coated teflon wire everywhere. The PCB boards for the resistors off the tranny were green, so i painted them black so it'd look cooler, i used shrink tube on everything to relieve stress from the wires that take a pretty hard bending to route, i could see people running into trouble there if you don't use it. Anyway, getting closer 8) Is that a rubber ring used for isolating the tubes from vibration? If so, neat idea.
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 3, 2015 10:12:43 GMT -6
well, apologies to JK for taking longer than i'd like, i knocked out a good portion of this thing up to now, i'll be hitting the high Z portion tomorrow, the mic is definitely harder to build than the PSU IMO, not "hard" per say, just tedious and i'm a pain in my own ass with the details so? This thing is wired with silver solder/silver coated teflon wire everywhere. The PCB boards for the resistors off the tranny were green, so i painted them black so it'd look cooler, i used shrink tube on everything to relieve stress from the wires that take a pretty hard bending to route, i could see people running into trouble there if you don't use it. Anyway, getting closer 8) Is that a rubber ring used for isolating the tubes from vibration? If so, neat idea. i believe it is, clever way to kill two birds with one stone if you ask me 8)
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 3, 2015 10:17:52 GMT -6
been following this repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,36677.0.html for the past couple, our own kidvybes is very honestly taking klaus to task, who in response is acting protective and absolute complete with removing harmless pics that promoted no one, there are no ID markers on max's mic, they could be Neumann for all klaus knows? His first post on this linked thread says exactly 0 substantively. Max actually used NOS Neumann laminates in his first BV8 tranny's(i have one), built off original schemo's. Should be interesting to see where that goes. Nice to see klaus substantiating my early observations. It won't let me link right to it? Klaus is a forum Na.... never mind lol Its under the heading "About The Quality of U47 Copy Mics"
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 11:13:19 GMT -6
Uhm, yes. The Holy Grail, it will never be found, all people knowing the magic in it are dead, it's lost forever, noone can build anything "remotely" in the ballpark, not a single one of the components could ever be rebuilt or mimiced in any satisfying way.... And did i get it right? "Please no hearsay..." - "I talked with Oliver that he talked with the transformer winding guy at Neumann factory, who said it is the special tension in the different chambers......" Oh, c'mon. Seriously? (Insert tired emoticon here.)
Let's build some diy space rockets to fly to mars. Obviously much easier.
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 3, 2015 11:49:52 GMT -6
Uhm, yes. The Holy Grail, it will never be found, all people knowing the magic in it are dead, it's lost forever, noone can build anything "remotely" in the ballpark, not a single one of the components could ever be rebuilt or mimiced in any satisfying way.... And did i get it right? "Please no hearsay..." - "I talked with Oliver that he talked with the transformer winding guy at Neumann factory, who said it is the special tension in the different chambers......" Oh, c'mon. Seriously? (Insert tired emoticon here.) Let's build some diy space rockets to fly to mars. Obviously much easier. No doubt! The hearsay comment killed me considering his first post had no foundation and he was slamming things he's never heard? U don't have to be a rocket to Mars scientist to recognize a guy going to extreme lengths to protect a paradigm that makes him $!!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 3, 2015 12:05:01 GMT -6
Microphones, like people are always different. Micro changes in manufacturing, quality differences in metals sourced, differing weather situations and use, the particular person at the factory who did the work on an important part, even the position of the stars probably has some effect. So, no matter how similar, no two mics can sound the same.
In the case of the MK47, from what I've heard, it's right in the ballpark. If the original plays centerfield, the MK47 is in right or left. I'd be happy to play with that team any day.
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Post by drbill on Feb 3, 2015 12:14:39 GMT -6
Tony - well.......Klaus is what he is. I think he's a "love him or hate him" kind of guy. His very terse and dry "germanic" style leave little room for error or personal opinion from anyone but himself. Not exactly the kind of guy I'd call up to go have a beer with... heh
He's a scientist. And one with a lot of credentials.
I've had my run-in's with him. I won't re-hash them. But I can tell you I have friends with mic collections valued in the many multiple 6 figures who use him exclusively and love him. He knows his stuff, but his way of communicating it is so off-putting that I cannot deal with him personally. He may be a nice dude, but I'd never know it. LOL It does not surprise me that he rubs you the wrong way.
And his splitting of sub-atomic "hairs" and calling HUGE attention to them is so ridiculous in real life situations (where I personally live) that it honestly (for me) completely deflates his arguments. I suppose if you only live in a lab and listen to microphones critically in lab rat situations, you might have a different opinion. I'll give him that.
Now, on the flip side of the coin....if I had all the parts laying around, and the money, and the wait time to build a legit "real" U47 out of vintage sourced parts, there is no doubt that he'd be the first guy on the list I'd call. But that will likely never happen, and honestly, with my mk47, I really don't care......
Is John's mic done yet? : )
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Feb 3, 2015 12:38:16 GMT -6
I Respect Klaus, and yeah you can't make a 100 percent historically correct Vintage Clone today. You can however get a mic that brings 99.99 percent of the sonic of a perticular example of a Vintage mic today. I have heard a lot of "perfect examples of 47s 49s c12s a couple of Elams and they are all treasured for their own personality. There are Things Sneezbee gets right there are things Thirsch gets right , there are things my Lawson FET Nails !
All I'm going to say is this Shut up and listen, If you really want it right call Shannon It might take a bit of time and some back and forth but he will get it there, I d say call Klaus , but He isn't excepting new customers, I can't get him to work on a mic!
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 3, 2015 13:05:36 GMT -6
I Respect Klaus, and yeah you can't make a 100 percent historically correct Vintage Clone today. You can however get a mic that brings 99.99 percent of the sonic of a perticular example of a Vintage mic today. I have heard a lot of "perfect examples of 47s 49s c12s a couple of Elams and they are all treasured for their own personality. There are Things Sneezbee gets right there are things Thirsch gets right , there are things my Lawson FET Nails ! All I'm going to say is this Shut up and listen, If you really want it right call Shannon It might take a bit of time and some back and forth but he will get it there, I d say call Klaus , but He isn't excepting new customers, I can't get him to work on a mic! It's funny how all the attributes mentioned by Klaus over and over, can be achieved by Shannon's capsule manipulation alone. All of us who have spent time experimenting with building mics pretty much agree, the capsule is the most significant factor in the performance of any condenser mic. On a side note, i talked to winetree, we're going to do a big ole mic shootout sooner than later(it will include MKU47's and original serial#38 Neumann U47)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 13:07:50 GMT -6
Small sidenote, the mentioned behaviour is not common among us germanic people... ;-)
Sorry if it came off harsh, but there are people investigating transformer winding techniques, buying machines, reading books, investigating lam materials, buying and analyzing NOS ones, and winding transformers. Even if it takes a decade to do this.
And there are people claiming this is near impossible. For decades. This is what annoys me. And no, this is by no means "scientific".
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