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Post by category5 on Feb 26, 2015 22:11:39 GMT -6
Hey TC. Looks like you used 120V LEDs in both positions. Do remember to stick a regular 3V LED in the PCB too, so there's something in there to drain the caps when the PSU gets shut off.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 22:35:17 GMT -6
kidvybes, believe me, most german engineers are quite well educated, they may have a kind of perfectionism really, but, well, they still are human beeings, sometimes just doing silly stuff or improvising, sometimes it works really well, sometimes....not so. Sometimes there is some deep thought in it. Sometimes not.  Some of the mic stuff really gets much too much mystification... Let's say - we don't KNOW it for sure, do we? ...it's time like this that I really miss being able to reach out to Oliver Archut (RIP) for his wisdom and historical knowledge...but I will reach out to others who have extensive knowledge on the subject for clarification...even the Chinese copied that same capsule placement in their U47-influenced OEM products (the Nady 1050 derived variants)...I'm quite confident that it was deliberate...I'd have to assume that fabricating a capsule mount is one of the least costly expenses in designing a mic from the ground up, so I hardly think they just slapped what was available off the shelf...I mean we're talking about the capsule's immediate exposure to capture sound, not the placement of a logo badge...when you think about the fact that the clone maker's go to great lengths to match the exact mesh configuration of the original headbasket for sonic accuracy, this issue about capsule exposure is quite significant... Even if we would know it HAS a significant effect on the sound and transient behaviour, we most probably wouldn't find out if it was intended to do THIS in the first way... AFAIK Neumann tried to accomplish some new goals with each mic. One of them, and by far not unimportant, was e.g. durability under studio and live broadcast heavy duty conditions, this was the target market that had the dough to buy these hi-cost mics. Capsule damage was and is an expensive thing in service. So protection while getting good sonic quality for the task of mainly voice recording and still beeing flexible as an allrounder was a thing to balance out. We see that the basket has several attributes that lead to the final sound. It is relatively huge. It has multiple layers that have influence on the sonic fingerprint while beeing protective for the capsule. The ring is also a mechanically stabilizing element. Consider the mic falling down the floor. Common accident... And we see other places in the mic design, where they improvised with what they had at hand. The tube is far from beeing a really good audio tube, therefore the selection process and the design around it to make it sound good. But it was very widely available, cheap, a military tube in a metal can, durable and reasonably quite if selected very well from a large batch, which was easy to obtain, the tube factory in the same city. Later tubes are much better audio tubes generally, say, the PF86. 105V single supply. A design goal spec'ed before development. Not! to achieve best audio quality, but a simpler supply, transformers/psu's are heavy and expensive. Therefore the mic runs hot. Normally something you want to avoid in mics. 3W heat power in the mic body, more than double of the heat power in the psu! Still, they managed to obtain a great sound, not because, but despite of what they used. And the heat in the mic avoids a common problem in large diaphragm condensers, moisture from oath condensation on the diaphragm, which leads to dust adhesion among other effects. On the long term, the heat leads to stiffening of the plastic foil, which might be more of an unwanted effect...but customers like official governmental broadcast organizations want their investment to be visibly durable, less prone to damage and pollution, less prone to service incidents. And still sounding good. "Stellar" sound wasn't on the design goal list, i would bet. Good professional sound especially for voice, sure. You see, the U47 was not made to become the best sounding mic on the planet. But it was a winner mic, and we all heard it so often in the radio, from childhood on, we love the sound. It is familiar. Like dr.bill oh, i guess it was Ward, says from time to time - it *has* similarities with the...tadaaa...SM58 in the sonic finger print. Surprise...the most used cheap workhorse live voice mic on the planet, love it or hate it. With the U47 the absolute hires high end version of the general sound, sure... And we heard so much great music recorded or played live thru these type of fingerprints, and it does work well in so many mixes, on so many voices we loved, how couldn't we love it generally, you see.... But was this a design goal? Uhm. No. How could it... Hope it doesn't sound offensive to anyone, but this is the way i see it. Take it as a personal view you don't have to share.... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 23:18:34 GMT -6
Oh, yes, i was aware of the Wagner mics since the time it was handled as *the best new U47* that actually sounds like an old U47 the time it was new...(makes sense?)
And i don't say it is not important how the capsule is placed if you want to achieve the authentic sound and transient behaviour. My point is, that sound was probably not the only and not necessarily the most important reason for this placement. Sometimes a primary design goal leads to another effect that turns out to be positive on another design level.
Once you discover it, sure, it turns out great.
U47 is a great design in the end, therefore it has been so successful. But most probably, noone at Neumann could have known it turns out to work SO well despite of the design goals that have been given for other reasons, not a specific sound. Great engineering involved, this is out of question.
And nobody would change a winner. And many will try to copy the elements of a known winner. And some will say: "Every aspect of this mic was absolutely intended by these godlike german designers, and the special ingredient in the diaphragm is....unknown and top secret, the recipe is lying in a safe of a Swiss bank, and the key is lost since the last illuminated engineer died..." OK, forget this, too sarkastic.
But some of us, or many of us treat this mic like the holy grail, which it is not.
EDIT: I mean, some of us study the design for decades and for alot longer, in man-hours, than the original mic designers, it easily becomes an obsession, and it is even understandable. It is a very fine design, and it is *rare* and unobtainium in original state to compare sound (capsule age) which makes it even more subject to speculations, and the guys that could clarify first hand, the original engineers/developers, have ceased.
I just try to demystify as much as possible, while i still admire the engineering that is behind this great product...
OK, this was very extensive. Hope it does not already fall under rule no.1, if so, don't hesitate to acknowledge me.... ;-)
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Post by wiz on Feb 27, 2015 0:19:32 GMT -6
You know, you do beautiful work Tone.
No matter what it ends up sounding like.. you made something beautiful there...
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 0:30:33 GMT -6
:)I would bet it sounds great.
Good ingredients, chef de cuisine, great recipe, cooked with love an enough time = great meal that looks AND tastes good.
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 27, 2015 0:44:23 GMT -6
Hey TC. Looks like you used 120V LEDs in both positions. Do remember to stick a regular 3V LED in the PCB too, so there's something in there to drain the caps when the PSU gets shut off. I used a 120v led on the power switch, the led on the front is 120v connected to the pcb on the underside so you cant see the wires, i didn't want the wires floating over the top of the mic 105v hookup, so i routed them over to the standoff(i know, anal 8). It's not very bright, but it's very robust and durable, it will also drain off the pcb power nice an fast, when i used a 3v it took a loooong time for the board to drain, it also felt cheap and like it wouldn't last very long, no problem at all getting beautifully stable 105v off the board. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 27, 2015 0:48:51 GMT -6
So SBF, i hear you telling Tone, i wasn't negligent: just in touch with inner german engineer ? "Capsule damage was and is an expensive thing in service. So protection while getting good sonic quality for the task of mainly voice recording and still beeing flexible as an allrounder was a thing to balance out. We see that the basket has several attributes that lead to the final sound. It is relatively huge. It has multiple layers that have influence on the sonic fingerprint while beeing protective for the capsule. The ring is also a mechanically stabilizing element. Consider the mic falling down the floor. Common accident..." that explains my incredible sense of deja-vu: how do you say that in german anyway ?  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 1:32:37 GMT -6
Uhm, is this related to your MK47 accident?
Well, i sometimes cannot read between the lines and don't get all nuances as a non-native speaker....
Well, the U47 is a heavy beast, if it falls, there is a good chance to break something, and capsule is critical and sets the mic out of order instantly. Therefore additional stabilization of the basket is kind of mandatory and not only to hide mesh solder cosmetically... ;-)
Mics falling to the floor is GENERALLY the most common accident that happens to mics.
And yes, there is always an inner engineer in me i am in contact with.
I am german and studied physics at a university and electrotechnics at an engineer school, both unfortunately only for a few semesters due to some unforseeable life occurances and decisions...
:-)
And deja-vu is deja-vu in english, french and german.
"Das erklärt mein unglaubliches Deja-Vu-Gefühl."
:-)
Hope, i didn't misunderstood anything....?
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Post by ericn on Feb 27, 2015 2:00:17 GMT -6
Oh, yes, i was aware of the Wagner mics since the time it was handled as *the best new U47* that actually sounds like an old U47 the time it was new...(makes sense?) And i don't say it is not important how the capsule is placed if you want to achieve the authentic sound and transient behaviour. My point is, that sound was probably not the only and not necessarily the most important reason for this placement. Sometimes a primary design goal leads to another effect that turns out to be positive on another design level. Once you discover it, sure, it turns out great. U47 is a great design in the end, therefore it has been so successful. But most probably, noone at Neumann could have known it turns out to work SO well despite of the design goals that have been given for other reasons, not a specific sound. Great engineering involved, this is out of question. And nobody would change a winner. And many will try to copy the elements of a known winner. And some will say: "Every aspect of this mic was absolutely intended by these godlike german designers, and the special ingredient in the diaphragm is....unknown and top secret, the recipe is lying in a safe of a Swiss bank, and the key is lost since the last illuminated engineer died..." OK, forget this, too sarkastic. But some of us, or many of us treat this mic like the holy grail, which it is not. EDIT: I mean, some of us study the design for decades and for alot longer, in man-hours, than the original mic designers, it easily becomes an obsession, and it is even understandable. It is a very fine design, and it is *rare* and unobtainium in original state to compare sound (capsule age) which makes it even more subject to speculations, and the guys that could clarify first hand, the original engineers/developers, have ceased. I just try to demystify as much as possible, while i still admire the engineering that is behind this great product... OK, this was very extensive. Hope it does not already fall under rule no.1, if so, don't hesitate to acknowledge me.... ;-) SBF your just looking at this way to logically and anyalitically ! This Art damn it not science ! ( for those who English is not there primary language this meant to be taken completely sarcasticly and not the least bit seriously ) |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 2:08:33 GMT -6
:DHehe, i got that. Like when i say "Oh no, you can't prove it is bullshit with an ABX and a null test. You have to brainwash yourself for a few weeks until you can hear the improvement! We call this 'long-term burn in'."...  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 2:50:42 GMT -6
I admit, now i am pretty excited about how Tony's and winetree's shootout turns out.
I have a very strong feeling about this and i am curious if i am right.
It is very similar to what Ward wrote about his shootout experience in the "vintage mic" thread.
But there is also a good chance that Robert/winetree has some very nice exemplars of these vintage series, so it stays suspenseful.
#38, i strongly guess these first ones are the ones that were those that started the one-of-a-kind mic sound myth. Neumann Berlin PVC M7 and all.
Hopefully we get the whole photo love story with extensive articles and wonderful sound clips by our kind hyperactive oneandonly Tony.
Highly appreciated!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 27, 2015 3:15:21 GMT -6
As much as I'm excited to hear the shoot out , all they ever prove is what works on that source on that song on that day! In the end we learn everything has its place and yeah for the money a good clone is hard to beat!
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 27, 2015 3:50:11 GMT -6
@sbf all good and I agree in the value of the good clones, mk-u47 and C12 are both excellent and two days ago I got a dizengoff D4 (redd47) and the combinations sound fine. I will look to put some nos tubes in the pre but they certainly demonstrate the hi quality sound these first rate clones provide us with!
I am sure JK will be very very pleased with his mike: great Job Tone !!
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 27, 2015 15:03:15 GMT -6
well, i finally listened to this thing, and i can tell you it has that "expensive" controlled headroomy thing going on, definitely one of the best sounding mics I've heard, JK will not be disappointed. I'm hashing out tubes right now and trying to prepare myself for tomorrows big shootout 8)  |
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Post by kidvybes on Feb 27, 2015 16:14:54 GMT -6
And i don't say it is not important how the capsule is placed if you want to achieve the authentic sound and transient behaviour. My point is, that sound was probably not the only and not necessarily the most important reason for this placement. Sometimes a primary design goal leads to another effect that turns out to be positive on another design level. Once you discover it, sure, it turns out great. U47 is a great design in the end, therefore it has been so successful. But most probably, noone at Neumann could have known it turns out to work SO well despite of the design goals that have been given for other reasons, not a specific sound. Great engineering involved, this is out of question. ...well, I reached out to a few well-respected experts for their thoughts on the capsule height issue and I've received responses from two so far...here's Klaus Heyne's thoughts on the positioning of the U47 capsule: "The U47 capsule mount is at the end of a stiff rubber column whose height and material properties need to be an ideal compromise between elasticity (shock absorption) and stiffness (preventing the capsule to whiplash against the inside of the head basket after a shock). Making it shorter gets you into the territory of the C12 and its capsule mount problem: heavy subsonic Trittschall-transmission. The whole thing transmits too much at 20 hz and below when triggered with even the smallest external excitement. The secondary, and probably unintended (positive) consequence of the column length Neumann chose is this: the higher you place the capsule inside the basket, the father away it gets from two parallel and reflective surfaces-the basket wall and the base plate-and the closer it gets to the domed (and diffractive) top. Here is an experiment I have made a few times to understand the real-world consequences of an acoustical obstacle placed close to a diaphragm: mount the same CK12 capsule, once in a C12 (no obstacle in front of the front diaphragm) and then in a C24 (a nasty support bar crossing right through the middle of the front diaphragm): I cannot hear an difference. That leads me to believe that the small circular weld connecting the U47's cylindrical basket with the domed portion of the basket must be quite negligible, acoustically. I speculate that the capsule's proximity to the support/weld was known, considered, and found to be not a fatal flaw for the overall head design." ...I then got a response from David Bock (pic below): "Nothing Neumann did, or does, is unintentional. Even when they use series reg on re-issue U67 psu's (!!!!!), or internal switching psu on fet mics. Tells you everything. Remember, they used to RUN the microphone world." I am still waiting on possible responses from a couple of other "experts", but I think it's probably safe to say that capsule positioning wasn't accidental...the U47 was Neumann's first major post-war effort, at a time when ribbon-mics were the standard for broadcasting and recording...so as far as "pulling something off the shelf", there wasn't really much on the shelf, if anything to reach for...Oliver's insight to the U47's origins are posted on the AMI/TAB-Funkenwerks site: www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id58.htmlAttachments:
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 27, 2015 17:03:17 GMT -6
Ok, so i've been dicking around with this mic when i should be getting ready for tomorrow, i have to say, this is the BEST VOX MIC I'VE EVER USED!(at least for my voice) it sounds off the hook! It sounded really good with the phillips tubes that came with it, but I have the RCA gold tips in there now and it's scary, i will try these tubes in my MK47 as well, but as of now, holy shit this is amazing! perfectly quiet and makes my crappy vox sound almost really good and tolerable lol ok, no more, i'll let these burn in another 1/2 day till tomorrow, now i gotta get my shit together for Z shootout 8)  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 27, 2015 17:16:21 GMT -6
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 27, 2015 17:19:26 GMT -6
Gee Tone how bout a nice heartwrenching version of " anticipation", ? you know just so jk knows we are all here for him ? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 27, 2015 17:32:45 GMT -6
YES YES...RECORD SOMETHING!!!!
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 27, 2015 18:14:55 GMT -6
ok ya somethings an ok tune too ! do Tony and the winetrees take requests ? I thought they were touring the new record ? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 27, 2015 19:43:59 GMT -6
YES YES...RECORD SOMETHING!!!! you wanted "something" you got.... something...lol No time at all spent on mic placement, it sits where it burns in, my voice is obviously over the mic, the finger picking is with negative fingernail growth, meaning i have 0 fingernails for finger picking tone, so it sounds lacking on mid top. This mic is kickass man! enjoy https%3A//soundcloud.com/tonycamp/johnsmku47-quick-shot |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 19:48:10 GMT -6
"Nothing Neumann did, or does, is unintentional."
I am not sure if i should laugh or cry when i read something like this.
A tough claim in it's absoluteness...
I am not believing in a god, you know...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 20:00:35 GMT -6
But hell...
So far...
Tony...
Considering, what you told about your quick shot, listening, hey man, can't wait for the winetree mic session clips.
Sounds good. I instantly believe you regarding the quality of the mic, despite the proudness of the builder sometimes masking the perception!!!
John, keep cool. Haha, no. I wouldn't stay cool either. I feel with you. Soon, soon. Just a bit of patience, just a little bit...
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 27, 2015 20:01:43 GMT -6
Damnit, now I've got to break away from House Of Cards to go upstairs and hear this thing...Thanks, Tony for all your hard work on this!
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 27, 2015 20:03:34 GMT -6
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