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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 8, 2014 10:19:15 GMT -6
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 8, 2014 21:36:24 GMT -6
Can't vouch for them, as I've never used their cable. It looks nice and looks well made. I'd imagine the shielding might help improve it over Radio Shack wire, but I'm no expert.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 21:38:38 GMT -6
Fiction to an extent
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 8, 2014 22:28:41 GMT -6
Just curious, not trying to be snarky, have you ever compared a high end interconnect or speaker wire to a basic one on a high quality stereo you were familiar with?
There was no fairy tale fiction involved when I tried my first small cable upgrade decades ago, it simply sounded better. Despite my firm belief it could not be so, I had to admit I was wrong.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 9, 2014 11:30:29 GMT -6
Wire should make no difference when power supplies and grounding are competent designs. Unfortunately that isn't the world we live in where the best and brightest haven't been designing audio gear since the 1930s.
The most effective audiophile tweak I know is plugging everything that touches audio into the same duplex outlet. Another big one is tightening every electrical connection back to the service entrance and sometimes even the pole connections. These often haven't been touched in 50 years or more.
One or both will make most wire differences go away. What's funny is when there is a difference, often the power cord makes the most obvious difference especially just switching from unshielded to shielded.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 9, 2014 12:09:21 GMT -6
I change my outlets to $50 outlets made by PS Audio. I found things are just clearer. That's not a crazy money tweak, but it sure helps everything a lot.
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Post by formatcyes on Dec 9, 2014 13:46:56 GMT -6
Hi Martin. You really need to do a blind test. I a sure the first time you upgraded your cables you received a gain in quality, but that could have been a number of things. Dry solder joint in the connectors, rust, poor contacts, damaged cable etc. Confirmation bias in audio occurs all the time I couldent count the number of times I have changed an eq/compressor thinking it made a difference only to find out it was bypassed. If you pass a blind test with different cables I would eat my hat.. Earlier in this thread I posted a link where Audiophiles couldn’t tell the difference between an expensive cable and a coat hanger in a blind test. There are better places to spend your money.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 9, 2014 13:57:14 GMT -6
I change my outlets to $50 outlets made by PS Audio. I found things are just clearer. That's not a crazy money tweak, but it sure helps everything a lot. U wasted $45 when u can buy the same exact hospital grade outlet for $5 at Home Depot, it's not debatible, we already proved this, clamping strength of the receptical is the single most important thing with a receptical, if u spent a few Hundy on a balanced power supply, ud kill everything else u'd think would make a difference, smooth common mode rejected power baby, It's a fact, not voodoo.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 9, 2014 14:44:54 GMT -6
Do you know for a fact they're the same Tony, or do you just think they are? Not being contrarian, just curious.
I don't believe they're exactly the same, but I haven't looked at PS Audio's website for a decade. This is what t says at their site about them: "The Power Port Classic is our AV Grade high-end AC receptacle that is the starting point for any properly built system. By installing the Power Port AC receptacle in your room you gain an immediate improvement in performance over a standard wall receptacle.The Power Port is a custom built, AV Grade isolated ground receptacle that will ensure a life-long level of excellence. The Power Port exceeds hospital grade standards for grip strength, contact resistance and current delivery. Easy to install in your wall, this is one component you need in your listening room as it will help make an immediate improvement.15 coats of polished nickel over high-purity copper, with the “grip of Mickey Mantle” and polished nickel plated hardware."
So, it says "custom built". Well, it could be custom made by the same folks who make the Home Depot model I guess, but I doubt it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 9, 2014 15:14:44 GMT -6
I used to be friendly with a gentleman named Albert Porter, and by "gentleman" I really mean that, he was a great guy. He was an audiophile's audiophile, and had a world renowned stereo system. It was similar to knowing someone who could afford the smallest important detail on a world class competition sailboat, He really knew his stuff, and was gracious about sharing his experiences. He had carefully experimented with all the available power outlets available, in his quest for the best. I've long since forgotten what brand he mentioned, but it had a little dot on it. He documented his careful tests and found he preferred one type. I think they cost $15 or maybe $20, his tests included megabuck super duper duper pricey brands too.
I believe the PS Audio receptacles are similar to the ones I have. If I can find the brand name of the ones he recommended, I'll post it later.
The thing is, I didn't have time or the inclination to test audio minutia, but his word was good enough for me to bother buying a $20 receptacle instead of a $4 one. Oh, and it did sound much better than what was in my apartment, but they are probably 5 or 10 years old or more.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 9, 2014 15:29:45 GMT -6
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 9, 2014 21:10:07 GMT -6
No one here has ever responded to my question regarding have you ever tried or tested any cabling?
And blind tests have their own biases. You can't feel or experience the long term effects. I noticed that with certain interconnects I listened to music for shorter periods of time over a month or two. Once I noticed, I used a brand I listened for longer periods of time comfortably. I'm really not on a soap box here, just telling you guys to try a few things for yourself and see what you find. Two of the electrical outlets I replaced for my stereo system were brand new. I listened to both my recording system and stereo system, when I popped in the upgraded outlet, it sounded better, clearly, unmistakably more detailed with a more 3D soundstage.
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Post by wiz on Dec 9, 2014 22:21:53 GMT -6
Martin John Butleri am not being an asshole, which is rule number 1 on RGO. Heres the logic I can't get passed... you pull out a power cord, that sits between piece of gear and wall.... replace with expensive power cord... get better sound. HOW? whats the logic? you haven't changed the wiring even from the fuse box to the wall, nor have you changed the wire, that runs from the inside of the piece of gear... just 3 foot of power cable, between your gear and the electric company... how, can it have such an effect? Assuming the power cable you had in there in the first place was of acceptable quality. How can, the change of that particular piece of wire, change the sound? I have seen power supply fluctuate by 10% I used to calibrate gear, and we would use a variac to swing the power to make sure the gear stayed in spec. Again, I am not being an asshole. Just explain to me, what you think is happening, physically when you insert the new power cable... what do you think it is doing to the power thats now running between your wall socket and the IEC connector on the back of the gear? and how does that have any impact on the performance of the piece of equipment, let alone that impact be, sonically positive. Let alone change the soundstage....and become more 3D? cheers Wiz
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 9, 2014 23:30:13 GMT -6
No one here has ever responded to my question regarding have you ever tried or tested any cabling? And blind tests have their own biases. You can't feel or experience the long term effects. I noticed that with certain interconnects I listened to music for shorter periods of time over a month or two. Once I noticed, I used a brand I listened for longer periods of time comfortably. I'm really not on a soap box here, just telling you guys to try a few things for yourself and see what you find. Two of the electrical outlets I replaced for my stereo system were brand new. I listened to both my recording system and stereo system, when I popped in the upgraded outlet, it sounded better, clearly, unmistakably more detailed with a more 3D soundstage. Martin, you're making this tough bro? it seems you are indeed on a soapbox, i believe people are being kind to you here by not saying anything! you've offered mostly hyperbole on this subject actually. First of all, a Blind scientific test is a "scientific test", hence the word scientific. The perfectly logical analogy that you seem to have such an incredibly hard time grasping -hooking a fire hose to a normally functioning garden hose in series, is not going to make the fire hose perform like a hydrant connected fire hose, this is simple logic, no matter how fecklessly you insist! Do you think someone as silly obsessive as myself hasn't put things like this to the test? It's about bang for your buck, a $50 wall outlet on 14awg romex in your walls is $ poorly spent, it's going to do exactly 0 for you (barring it replacing a faulty outlet), it's like a bullet with no gun, i would bet the entire contents of my studio that you would fail a legitimate blind test on the difference between a $1 to $200 outlet in that scenario. The outlet that you mentioned early is DEFINITELY the same as the hospital grade outlet sold at home depot, it's got the same exact markings, and plug grip. I promise you that the snakeoilers who sell this shit do NOT put the money into mold injection machines and automated assembly factories to manufacturing the miniscule amount of these "super outlets" that they sell to a scant number of gullibles, sorry bro, it's just the way it is. I will say i've seen different platings on the metal elements, but i call BS on that with the amounts of voltage that are present. If your fighting some sort of oxidation problems in your dwelling, then you need to get ventilation/air conditioning in your pad, 2 new outlets of any plating will perform exactly the same because no oxidization exists in a brand new state. I am also trying not to be an asshole, but I believe the information that gets put out here on this site needs to be of quality if we want to attract good members, i personally don't like the way you're representing right now, so i'm pushing back. This would be my personal list of actual, provable electric upgrades that someone can make in their apartment building/studio that is littered with emi/rfi and all kinds of supply line noise. Most bang for your buck, Get a filtering balanced power supply, with shielded toroidal tranny of high VA, that you can plug your entire audio rig into. A balanced power supply common mode rejects noise off the mains giving you perfectly clean power, the filters get rid of emi, rfi and all kinds of different i's lol This is real world, tangible audio quality improvement that pulls noise of the mains supplies and makes your gear function better, and your electronics last longer. from this point, adding higher quality power cords, interconnects and speaker cabling will be more effective(though small in comparison to a BPSU). It's a sum of all the little things game we play here, there is such a thing as putting the cart before the horse, and diminishing returns, ultra expensive cabling is useless tapping crappy power, but useful maintaining quality power, but to a limited extent not approaching the cost of some of the prices i've seen here.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 10, 2014 0:04:07 GMT -6
My assumption is a power cord can alter the effects of RFI and that's why cleaning up the power connections usually eliminates the differences between cords.
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Post by ben on Dec 10, 2014 0:41:03 GMT -6
Who wants to participate in this test?
A while back I recorded some guitar and snare clips through 3 different mic cables. Yes, they are different takes, but the mic and source position did not change, just the cable. Only the snare samples are small enough to upload directly so I'll start with them. Take a listen and see if you can hear ANY difference.
Setup: U87ai through each cable into a Vintech 1272 to DAW.
Samples: Snare mic about 2.5 feet from head
CABLES: Zaolla Silverline Mic Cable (solid silver core), Accusound Silver Triplex (Silver over copper), and EWI quad cable $20.
And... if you can hear a difference, is it significant enough to justify paying up to $200 for any one cable?
GO...
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 10, 2014 0:51:23 GMT -6
my prefs in order were C, A, B, B being the most hooded. I'm guessing that C was the expensive cable, i would also suggest a fine acoustic guitar with lots of upper harmonics for these kinds of tests, they usually tell a better story imo.
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Post by formatcyes on Dec 10, 2014 1:13:52 GMT -6
B has issues a and c both sound fine I cannot split them. Its not just about the cable I suspect the connectors/joints maybe the issue with B. I make all my own leads up because of the number of dry/bad joints you get with commercial premade ones.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 10, 2014 1:46:47 GMT -6
B has issues a and c both sound fine I cannot split them. Its not just about the cable I suspect the connectors/joints maybe the issue with B. I make all my own leads up because of the number of dry/bad joints you get with commercial premade ones. this is a place where cables make the biggest diff i've found(although still small), i believe a lot of these things are real and make incremental improvements IF THEY ARE IMPLEMENTED IN A LOGICAL SEQUENCE AND NOT TAKING THE PLACE OF A FAULTY PIECE OF EQUIPMENT SOMEWHERE IN THE CHAIN(IF THAT'S THE CASE, WELL OF COURSE IT WILL SOUND BETTER) I have a bunch of beldin mic cables, they do indeed sound a tad more open and somehow less noisy than my standard mic cables, they will be utilized on tracks with lots of high freq info until i replace all my old hat mic cables, I need to get a couple samples up on this.
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Post by wiz on Dec 10, 2014 2:14:50 GMT -6
can you run a sweep measurement on the cables?
if you are on mac you can use fuzz measure
cheers
Wiz
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Post by jimwilliams on Dec 10, 2014 10:06:17 GMT -6
Yes, you can measure cable losses with a Agilent or HP network analyzer, they run about $50,000 each. My Audio Precision analyzer will not measure those losses.
I suggest using a cleaner, more revealing preamp than a Neve design if you want the cable differences to be better heard. Much is washed out by the transformers and transistor THD.
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Post by ben on Dec 10, 2014 10:48:19 GMT -6
i would also suggest a fine acoustic guitar with lots of upper harmonics for these kinds of tests, they usually tell a better story imo. I have some acoustic guitar clips, but they are too large to upload, let me see if I can edit them down to fit, or host them on soundcloud.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 10, 2014 10:52:24 GMT -6
i would also suggest a fine acoustic guitar with lots of upper harmonics for these kinds of tests, they usually tell a better story imo. I have some acoustic guitar clips, but they are too large to upload, let me see if I can edit them down to fit, or host them on soundcloud. U have the answers to ur ABC?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 10, 2014 11:04:52 GMT -6
Well, there it is, C sounds clearer. All I've ever said is sometimes cables make a difference, so try some.
Tony says in the case of mic cables it can matter, and I agree, add up lots of tracks done with cable C, and the entire mix will be cleaner. So, Tony, it's really a matter of in which instance you find cables make a difference. Our main disagreement is simply I've heard small differences with some other types of cables. That's OK, I know you know your stuff, so I would never try to say otherwise, but I trust my ears much more than most people do, so I'll keep on looking at every detail I can afford to, even if that means a power cord or an interconnect.
It had been a long time since I changed my outlets, so my memory was vague. I remember now that two of my outlets were brand new, only a few days old, because the apartment had been renovated. I changed them to the $15 or $20 outlets my friend recommended. I heard a clear improvement. Even if it was only because of how the new ones were connected, it didn't really matter to me then why, for $15 I got a better sound from both my stereo and my recording system.
To me "small" differences matter, because they can be cumulative.
Here's a small cabling story I'll pass along. I use to have a hi def movie projector on my ceiling, and a big screen in my living room. I used the stock power cord. I had sold a few things, so I had an extra PS Audio $50 power cord available. With 6 people in the room. I simply switched power cords, and the picture had less hash, deeper blacks and colors seemed richer with no bleeding. All six people saw it and were genuinely surprised. These kinds of experiences are why I try things sometimes, even though I'm no engineer or electrician. No disrespect intended to the helpful folks here who are.
What power conditioners do you guys use? Tony, Bob?
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Post by ben on Dec 10, 2014 11:17:24 GMT -6
I've got the answers, but first, here are the guitar clips:
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