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Post by levon on Nov 17, 2014 3:04:12 GMT -6
Steve Albini gave the keynote address at Melbourne’s Face the Music conference last week. His surprising message: I'm satisfied and optimistic about the state of the music scene. Long story but it might be of interest for some here.
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Post by swurveman on Nov 17, 2014 9:34:07 GMT -6
Steve Albini gave the keynote address at Melbourne’s Face the Music conference last week. His surprising message: I'm satisfied and optimistic about the state of the music scene. Long story but it might be of interest for some here. My view is that Albini gets paid upfront. He doesn't want to not get paid. So, he's facing the environment of music being ubiquitous and free worldwide with his "what a fantastic development" line, because he's decided there's no going back to the old system which he didn't like philosophically anyway. So, he's putting a happy face on the new paradigm, hoping that bands will buy it and keep spending their money with him-upfront- with no risk on his part. I assume he gets paid to fly to Melbourne to speak at these events. It's a good gig. For him. For most everybody else: I'd love to see how much money bands are making from their Soundcloud, BandCamp. Youtube, Reverbnation music distribution. My view is that anything that becomes free and ubiquitous gets devalued and the creators-who have to spend money upfront-get screwed. It's pretty simple economics to me. I don't know how bands are doing in London, New York, Nashville and LA where the cost of living is high. Here in the heartland they're struggling. They put their music out for free on the above sites, and have boxes of CD's unsold and iTunes sales that come from their closest family and friends. They advertise for free on Facebook, but still struggle to get an audience from a generation that is glued to their ubiquitous screens. Gig income is less, not more. None of them are booking tours to Albania, Poland, Croatia and Turkey. They have day jobs and the idea that they'd risk even more of their hard earned money flying half way across the world would be absurd to them. Given the transportation costs, I'd love to see what Albini's net profit was on that tour. I think it is telling that he talked about how "magical" it was and that he played in front of "packed houses", but he didn't break down his profit. I'd be very surprised if at the end of the day he made a penny. Steve Albini still lives in rarefied air where he'll probably continue to book his studio enough to make a profit. But I think it is telling that even he is going on a huge marketing campaign to try to sell the new paradigm. Perhaps things are not so good for him, and he senses his profitability going down the tubes like so many other studios. He's got this side media gig going though. He'll probably stay afloat.
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Post by Ward on Nov 17, 2014 11:25:48 GMT -6
If music is going to be free, then everything music creators need should also be provided free of charge. Some sort of special card issues by the government?
I mean, that's communism, isn't it?
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Post by M57 on Nov 17, 2014 12:31:53 GMT -6
So if you prefer market forces - then how would you propose it works? You've got the songwriter/composer, the live performance, the CD/downloaded performance (going the way of the dinosaur), the streamed performance. Right now, the songwriter gets squat, the live performer eeks out a living, the mechanical recording generates peanuts and the execs that pull the strings and 'protect' the work take all the rest, which is the lion's share.
What do you guys think of sites like CDbaby? What if artists could price their music differently in all markets. Mind you, most are going to give away their music. I have no idea how the cream rises to the top in such a system, but I do like the idea of an even playing field and the big sites/radio stations having to pay for quality in a competative market.
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Post by popmann on Nov 17, 2014 14:21:36 GMT -6
Actually, the deeper understanding of Albini's point of view is if you look at what kind of music he likes....and that he is quite literally NOT a professional musician. Being in a band who occasionally plays a gig does not make you a professional musician. Moreover, huge amounts of the music he adores is made by amateurs. It would be like a big band leader writing an essay on how who needed shitty electric guitars and overdubbing anyway. It's not WRONG....it's just myopic.
He doesn't like or respect any music made by songwriters. Meaning artists recording material written for them....or written by people who are not performers. While his Phil Collins joke is funny--he's a funny guy, what about the MILLIONS of people who bought Phil's albums and tickets over the years--see that's what his POV misses--he says you can get the "best of whatever you're into"....and lists some kind of punk rocker's idea of what musical genres might be--in generic terms....as if Phil Collins or Prince don't have fans. Or better yet--let's look at James Taylor. What's 21 year old James Taylor's plan in this? Play your tunes with just acoustic guitar at coffee houses (as if those exist anymore--thanks Starbucks)...with no band, or a band of amateur players who just love playing his songs, since he can't pay them....maybe throw up some mics and put that on Soundcloud....and try to grow a following enough to give you starter money (via Kickstarter or wherever) to record with the hot shot musicians he's ALWAYS had on his records? Or maybe rather than living and writing and devloping his own unique style on the acoustic, 21year old James should buy EZ Drummer and a DAW--figure out how to engineer his own recordings....and sequence drums and pianos and whatever--and play bass as awkardly as most acoustic guitarists would....put that DEMO....up on SOundcloud or give it away at gigs...
I'm getting longwinded, but my point is--his amatuer punk rock scene is but this little scene that yes--WAS severely underrepresented by the label system, so that did little for any music he loves. He's been vocal about that for many years--and not incorrect at ALL, if you share his love of passionate garage rock bands. So, he's not WRONG--he's just not seeing the bigger picture. Or is completely OK with the bigger picture--which would involve no one being a professional songwriter. No one being a professional session OR touring musician in support of singing artists--but, every singer needing to find their own full time band who is both good and willing to work for "fun"....or "getting the chance to play with them". The componentizing of songwriter....and singer....and sessions musicians....and touring musicians....is a construct of an industry that made no music he loves--so, of course he is ok with that outcome.
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Post by popmann on Nov 17, 2014 14:31:25 GMT -6
I should point out I think Steve is a funny and articulate guy....and a fine tracking engineer. The above should not be interpreted as any disrespect....but, a clarification/perspective on where he's coming from. We all suffer from some amount of myopia. You just have to realize and acknowledge that when making such declarations if you hope to truly communicate.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 17, 2014 15:12:26 GMT -6
As always, JMO The whole tour to make money thing is BS, the vast majority of talent isn't interested in doing that. Albini's faux punk example of a band from 1975 being discovered now because of the internet, and relaunching a touring career at the age of ?(at least 60+ years old?) is a fucking absurd example, it's pretty clear that he's just selfishly/disingenuously trying to secure his anti establishment brand IMO, kinda blows his cred, i stopped reading there.
News bulletin for U2 and Mr. Albini, Giving away music for..cough..."free", reinforces a tragic paradigm, devalues your own work, and that of your peers and clients, end of story. As for talented artists trying to make a living, survival instinct is a paramount human condition, artist will sacrifice wealth, and even comfort to do what they love for a living, but if you take away their ability to eke out the most meager of livings, they WILL NOT, and you will see the cream that used to rise to the top, give way to more turds floating in the shitter at an ever increasing rate.
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Post by levon on Nov 18, 2014 8:00:24 GMT -6
As always, JMO The whole tour to make money thing is BS, the vast majority of talent isn't interested in doing that. Albini's faux punk example of a band from 1975 being discovered now because of the internet, and relaunching a touring career at the age of ?(at least 60+ years old?) is a fucking absurd example, it's pretty clear that he's just selfishly/disingenuously trying to secure his anti establishment brand IMO, kinda blows his cred, i stopped reading there. News bulletin for U2 and Mr. Albini, Giving away music for..cough..."free", reinforces a tragic paradigm, devalues your own work, and that of your peers and clients, end of story. As for talented artists trying to make a living, survival instinct is a paramount human condition, artist will sacrifice wealth, and even comfort to do what they love for a living, but if you take away their ability to eke out the most meager of livings, they WILL NOT, and you will see the cream that used to rise to the top, give way to more turds floating in the shitter at an ever increasing rate. Tony, I believe that, if there's no more money to be made, the shit that floats around trying to get rich off songwriters and artists will go elsewhere and sooner or later, only people that love music will be 'the music industry'. On the creative side and on the consumer side. Cut out the bvllshitting middlemen. The turds will simply lose interest and, consequently, the quality of music produced could improve a lot. But, I know, we're still a long ways away. I don't agree with everything Albini's saying, but he's got a few good points here. And what I like about his POV is the positive he sees. I'm getting tired of the constant moaning and wailing from all corners, it doesn't help and it doesn't change a single thing. Yes, the industry is fvcked up today but it always was fvcked up. Record companies, publishers were always a scam created to rip songwriters and musicians off, the very people who created the music were never ever paid adequately. I've experienced the tail-end of the golden age of music production (late 70s and into the 80s) and it sucked already then. The difference was that nobody stole music in those days, if you discount kids that stole albums in record stores (ahem...) and clueless 'songwriters' who stole your riffs. But musicians, songwriters were being ripped off just like they're ripped of today. All the while record companies made the money. Friends of mine toured endlessly in the 1980s, albums in the charts, sold out shows in 6000-seaters and their (major) label said they ended the tour in debt. How's that? What I take away from Albini's speech is, don't cry about the way things are - change them, take your destiny into your own hands, use the tools that are available, enjoy creating and be glad that the big labels and useless A&Rs (who have no clue about music anyway) are on the way out. I'm in it for the fun of it, music has got to make me happy, first and foremost.
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 18, 2014 9:58:01 GMT -6
Satisfied isn't a glowing recommendation. It's a realization you have it pretty good considering the situation around you. Not unlike a welfare recipient that says the economy is good, if you were one of the few well paid survivors in a collapsed industry, you would be pretty satisfied too.
I wonder what his opinion is of current music and musicianship that he has to record and listen to for hours on end. That would be my downfall. I would spend a lot of time outside the control room.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 18, 2014 10:19:27 GMT -6
Making any profit touring smaller than stadium shows ended around 1970 according to everybody I know.
People love to blame their failures on record labels and publishers but ignore the fact they would have been sued out of existence long ago if much of the "rip-off" nonsense were even slightly true. In most cases I've seen, the artist's own manager ripped them off by selling out their back-end income in order to collect 10-20 percent of a massive advance that would never be repaid.
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Post by popmann on Nov 18, 2014 10:20:17 GMT -6
ReRead my post. The level of musicianship HE works with hasn't changed--he has never worked with accomplished musicians. He actively loves garage rockin noise making punk. That is the music he loves....hich fuels this POV.
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Post by donr on Nov 18, 2014 11:01:43 GMT -6
Satisfied isn't a glowing recommendation. It's a realization you have it pretty good considering the situation around you. Not unlike a welfare recipient that says the economy is good, if you were one of the few well paid survivors in a collapsed industry, you would be pretty satisfied too. I wonder what his opinion is of current music and musicianship that he has to record and listen to for hours on end. That would be my downfall. I would spend a lot of time outside the control room. Ha. Before the Blue Oyster Cult was signed to Columbia, the band was called The Soft White Underbelly and signed to Elektra. We made some recordings around 1968 that weren’t released until decades later on Rhino, but that’s another story. We did a week of tracking at A&R studios on 7th Ave in NYC with an Elektra staff producer, Peter Siegal. The engineer we started with was an older guy, a sharp dresser. He lasted two days, then we had another engineer. It was plain that he just hated our music.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 18, 2014 12:57:56 GMT -6
This is the same yahoo who didn't take points on "Nevermind" and now admits in the new "Music Highways" show that his studio goes under about once a year. Nobility at the price of survival is stupidity.
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Post by levon on Nov 19, 2014 0:32:30 GMT -6
Making any profit touring smaller than stadium shows ended around 1970 according to everybody I know. People love to blame their failures on record labels and publishers but ignore the fact they would have been sued out of existence long ago if much of the "rip-off" nonsense were even slightly true. In most cases I've seen, the artist's own manager ripped them off by selling out their back-end income in order to collect 10-20 percent of a massive advance that would never be repaid. You have a point and I agree that might be the case for the US, but in Germany, you could make money touring sold-out 6000-seaters in the 1980s. And I also agree that managers where a big source of rip-off. As where publishers and producers who were supposed to work for you.
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Post by levon on Nov 19, 2014 0:37:23 GMT -6
Satisfied isn't a glowing recommendation. It's a realization you have it pretty good considering the situation around you. Not unlike a welfare recipient that says the economy is good, if you were one of the few well paid survivors in a collapsed industry, you would be pretty satisfied too. I wonder what his opinion is of current music and musicianship that he has to record and listen to for hours on end. That would be my downfall. I would spend a lot of time outside the control room. Jim, I see where you coming from and I'm not your typical struggling artist, because i don't have to live on my income from music, so I'm probably not a good example. I might not even be qualified to join this discussion at all. I have a well-paying day job that lets me build a comfy home studio with selected high end gear and enjoy it and the music I make in there. I agree, I could not make a living from music these days. Even in the days when I was very active as a writer and had a bunch of major label releases, I was struggling to make ends meet. And that was the primary reason I took up a day job. There was rent to be paid and food to be bought. And cats to be fed...
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Post by joseph on Nov 19, 2014 15:30:55 GMT -6
This is the same yahoo who didn't take points on "Nevermind" and now admits in the new "Music Highways" show that his studio goes under about once a year. Nobility at the price of survival is stupidity. In Utero was the album he did. Butch Vig did Nevermind. I sort of agree with him in principle, but given the huge impact his engineering had on the sound of countless records, I disagree with him and agree with you in actual effect.
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Post by joseph on Nov 19, 2014 15:56:07 GMT -6
ReRead my post. The level of musicianship HE works with hasn't changed--he has never worked with accomplished musicians. He actively loves garage rockin noise making punk. That is the music he loves....hich fuels this POV. Right, Dave Grohl and Nirvana, The Breeders, Pixies, PJ Harvey, all shit musicians. Actually his band Shellac is pretty accomplished too. I know a few very top level musicians that make money touring and selling their own music. Real music, not dance music, thank god. It's not big money but enough to live off of. Bob Olhsson has noted elsewhere that the overall level of musicianship has gone down, and musicians aren't matured through live experience in the same way as they used to be. This is definitely true. On the other hand, I see this as primarily the fault of television and big labels, where producers and staff are hired to manufacture acts for maximum profit, saturation and turnover. I doubt the pop acts today would have made the cut as performers even to become backing acts in the 1960s. I can't think of any pop singers today who compare to Motown's artists or Dolly Parton. So I also blame engineers and producers for propping up singers and musicians who have very little vocal or original songwriting ability or performance talent. You think Steve Albini does this? All he does is record people for money, he doesn't fix bad performances, and he doesn't produce to market targets, so I thank him. It's just a lot more efficient to throw money until it sticks and inundate people from a young age with bad music until they don't know the difference rather than find and nurture talent.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 19, 2014 16:29:36 GMT -6
Where artists got matured was playing great songs in cover bands. Most of the big stars of the '60s were working out on stage in front of people by the time they were 13 and many had their first record deal at 16 and their first hit on their second label a few years later. Today talented young musicians simply can't afford to even think about music as a career.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 19, 2014 17:08:21 GMT -6
This is the same yahoo who didn't take points on "Nevermind" and now admits in the new "Music Highways" show that his studio goes under about once a year. Nobility at the price of survival is stupidity. In Utero was the album he did. Butch Vig did Nevermind. I sort of agree with him in principle, but given the huge impact his engineering had on the sound of countless records, I disagree with him and agree with you in actual effect. Touche - you're right...Welcome, joseph!
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 19, 2014 17:10:04 GMT -6
Where artists got matured was playing great songs in cover bands. Most of the big stars of the '60s were working out on stage in front of people by the time they were 13 and many had their first record deal at 16 and their first hit on their second label a few years later. Today talented young musicians simply can't afford to even think about music as a career. True...I wonder too if it's not a cultural thing too. Most kids aren't willing to scrape by for ten years...with no iphone, ipad, spending money, etc. I'll admit, I was the same way. The guys that commit their lives to this stuff are few and far between.
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Post by popmann on Nov 19, 2014 18:42:08 GMT -6
Sorry to offend. When dealing with most any pop/rock music, you're nearly always dealing with "how unaccomplished" the musicians are compared to nearly any other form. That's why I use that word....not "shit".
Jackson Pollack isn't an accomplished painter because people love and buy his art that involves use of paint and canvas. Nor does it mean Jackson should "learn to paint"....do your thing...people love it...more think those people are delusional. But, Albini's opinion becomes devalued when he comments on the state of an industry that he couldn't stand anything it produced.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 19, 2014 18:49:01 GMT -6
A huge problem is that kids are no longer exposed to great live music as part of everybody's life such as high school dances and parties.
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Post by joseph on Nov 19, 2014 22:17:09 GMT -6
Sorry to offend. When dealing with most any pop/rock music, you're nearly always dealing with "how unaccomplished" the musicians are compared to nearly any other form. That's why I use that word....not "shit". Musicianship is all about listening to your fellow musicians in performance and adjusting your feel. That's true whether you're first desk in the Berliner Philharmoniker or playing Soul or Rock and Roll. Music is either good or bad, not important or not. Whether you agree with him or not, Albini's views are perfectly valid. He worked with some of the biggest acts of the 90s, and has his own feelings about how the big labels treated them and the recording process and how it affected their artistic output, especially Sonic Youth. Let's not forget DGC people screwed with both Nevermind and In Utero after the recording sessions.
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Post by joseph on Nov 19, 2014 22:29:54 GMT -6
In Utero was the album he did. Butch Vig did Nevermind. I sort of agree with him in principle, but given the huge impact his engineering had on the sound of countless records, I disagree with him and agree with you in actual effect. Touche - you're right...Welcome, joseph! Glad to be here, thanks. I've learned a lot about recording and mixing. Also appreciate the balanced attitudes and level of experience around here.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 19, 2014 23:05:43 GMT -6
So, some guy from a band maybe 50 people gave a shit about is lecturing about how other artists approach protecting their work? Why anyone cares about what he has to say escapes me. When Keith Richards speak up, I'm listening.
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