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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 19, 2014 23:07:15 GMT -6
Touche - you're right...Welcome, joseph! Glad to be here, thanks. I've learned a lot about recording and mixing. Also appreciate the balanced attitudes and level of experience around here. Nice avatar. Love the V-4.
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Post by joseph on Nov 20, 2014 0:16:42 GMT -6
Glad to be here, thanks. I've learned a lot about recording and mixing. Also appreciate the balanced attitudes and level of experience around here. Nice avatar. Love the V-4. Thanks, same!
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Post by levon on Nov 20, 2014 0:37:18 GMT -6
A huge problem is that kids are no longer exposed to great live music as part of everybody's life such as high school dances and parties. You're right, we all started out as cover bands and learned to play and write by copying great songs. But what can today's cover bands cover? Cookie-cutter prefab songs? Today's top 40 stuff is not worth copying (IMO) and young bands today would have to dig very deep to find the good stuff. So deep that only a few will find it. Aahhrg, why can't we stay positive for a minute ??
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Post by levon on Nov 20, 2014 0:43:12 GMT -6
So, some guy from a band maybe 50 people gave a shit about is lecturing about how other artists approach protecting their work? Why anyone cares about what he has to say escapes me. When Keith Richards speak up, I'm listening. What makes you think he's lecturing? He stating his opinions in front of people who obviously liked to listen, otherwise they would've walked out. If you don't agree with him, fine, nothing wrong with that. But then just don't listen and walk away. And, Keith Richards, while I like the guy as a unique character and appreciate what he does, he doesn't impress me as a musician at all. Mediocre to put it politely. Only my view, of course, but since you've stated yours I guess I'm allowed to state mine.
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Post by M57 on Nov 20, 2014 6:07:05 GMT -6
A huge problem is that kids are no longer exposed to great live music as part of everybody's life such as high school dances and parties. You're right, we all started out as cover bands and learned to play and write by copying great songs. But what can today's cover bands cover? Cookie-cutter prefab songs? Today's top 40 stuff is not worth copying (IMO) and young bands today would have to dig very deep to find the good stuff. So deep that only a few will find it. Aahhrg, why can't we stay positive for a minute ?? Yeah, cover bands cover what people want. But I would argue that less has changed than you suggest where exposure to great music is concerned. Covering pre-fab cookie-cutter is just one option. And don't tell me that P-FC-C didn't exist back in the day. Great songs? I couldn't stand half the stuff I had to play in half the bands I played in. I might even be tempted to argue the opposite. Today's young musicians are faced with a range of choices in terms of access to the music that we couldn't even have imagined when we were their age. The age of streaming may change this pardigm a bit, but to this day kids love the Beatles. I teach 7th and 8th graders and though it happens less and less these days, they often surprise me with their familiarity with certain music, the result of going through their parent's CD collections. The way the industry has evolved over the last 100 years as a result of technological advances makes my head spin. I've been on this planet for half of it, and I'm tempted to want to argue the opposite of your supposition. Young musicians have the opportunity to 'cover' music in ways we could only dream of. There isn't a kid in my school that doesn't know how to use Garage Band at a basic level. The jury may still be out, and I may be polyannaish, but the new school may be just as good if not better than the old. One thing we can agree on - it's certainly different.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 20, 2014 9:05:28 GMT -6
Hi Levon, I realize Mr. Albini has worked on lots of records and is considered an excellent engineer. He seems like a great guy for artists to work with, but his own music clearly never went far, which is why I joked about there being maybe 50 people who cared about it. I've seen my income drop by more than 90% from the new digital paradigm. I think artists are basically being screwed, and just learning workarounds to cope with it. Historically, this isn't anything new, artists were at the beck and call of royalty since time immemorial. But, when guys who were not part of the original NYC Punk music scene wax poetic about it, I have to call bullshit on them, I was there, on the inside, from the very beginning.
I also must admit, I don't have time to spend reading everything he had to say in his lectures or articles, so I may be rushing to judgement, but I did read enough to get the gist of what he was saying. I'm not trying to crack wise here, but a keynote address by definition is a lecture.
As for not agreeing with him, well, I think it's important that musicians use their voice to promote fair treatment, not sit back and smile while being kicked to the gutter. The Chinese don't care about copyrights, and we're heading in that direction ourselves now, because congressman basically don't understand how it works, and powerful business interests seduce them easily.
My friend had 1.4 million plays of his song on Spotify, and he got a $45 check. Do I need to say much more?
I just remembered, another friend had a song of his featured in the most popular British tv comedy. In the scene, girls were jumping up and down in their bedroom, dancing to his track for over a minute and a half, (an eternity in TV time), and he also received a check for.. $45, ( what's up with that number?)
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 20, 2014 10:18:59 GMT -6
A huge problem is that kids are no longer exposed to great live music as part of everybody's life such as high school dances and parties. They have those ear buds in all the time playing that musically complicated 'rap' stuff.
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 20, 2014 10:21:06 GMT -6
When Keith Richards speak up, I'm listening. I too always want to hear from the living dead.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 20, 2014 10:23:26 GMT -6
I don't think anybody is really ready to record before they have stage experience. I'm not a musician but every time I ask myself What's changed since the '60s?, the elephant in the room is the fact that there is no longer any paying work for young musicians. The "record industry" can't fix this but the rest of us might be able to.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 20, 2014 10:27:17 GMT -6
They have those ear buds in all the time playing that musically complicated 'rap' stuff. Actually rap is performance art that is tremendous live when done well. Recordings don't do it justice.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 20, 2014 10:42:59 GMT -6
Maybe Keith wasn't the best choice as a voice of experience and reason, but when musicians of his status whose work and career I respect speak out, like Neil Young about things like Starbuck's connection to Monsanto or instance, I tend to give them more credence.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 20, 2014 12:22:07 GMT -6
They have those ear buds in all the time playing that musically complicated 'rap' stuff. Actually rap is performance art that is tremendous live when done well. Recordings don't do it justice. one of my favorite quotes of all time is from Jeff Beck, "you can do anything as long as it's not boring"
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 20, 2014 13:18:39 GMT -6
If I hadn't seen it live, I wouldn't have ever known. Recordings are a very limited medium.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 20, 2014 15:39:15 GMT -6
^ That's a first. Really though, your point about him having a certain point of view is spot on. His view of the industry is that of indie rock bands, not songwriters. Looking at it from where he's coming from, I totally get what he's saying.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 20, 2014 15:49:18 GMT -6
So, some guy from a band maybe 50 people gave a shit about is lecturing about how other artists approach protecting their work? Why anyone cares about what he has to say escapes me. When Keith Richards speak up, I'm listening. You're obviously coming from a different place than Albini. If you're a solo artist or songwriter or cover band or really anything other than Indie Rock, his points won't jive with you. I was pretty immersed in the rock scene for a few years and think his points are valid. If you're trying to grow organically in the scene, at this point you've got to embrace that music is looked at as free and use that to sell other aspects of yourself. As he says, you can't put the fart back in. Anyway, his band is actually pretty big and he's much more accomplished as an engineer. He's not just some schmohawk coming out of the blue.
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Post by sinasoid on Nov 20, 2014 16:00:27 GMT -6
I think I see both sides to this. I personally am a huge proponent of Albini and his philosophy regarding the music industry, but have spent some time in my past working with Nashville songwriters and such. I don't think anything Albini's said is relevant to people involved in old record business. He's gone on the record to say that no one should try to make a career out of music; do it as a hobby and if it makes enough money, spend more time on it. Albini merely sees his engineering and mixing duties as a day job, and his bands are just side projects he does for fun.
I think the best thing for people not living in that paradigm to do is to just fucking ignore everything Mr. Albini has said and move on to find solutions for your problems. He is not the guy to ask how to save Nashville, unless you want artsy-fartsy punk rock to invade your city.
For underground/DIY types like myself, I wholeheartedly agree with everything he's said IN THE CONTEXT of punk, underground, and whatnot. Any of you ever booked a house show tour? It brings in a shit ton of money. No middle management, no label, no managers, just split between the band members minus the expenses to travel and eat. There is literally no better time to be in an underground band.
And as a side note, though Albini is known to work with a lot of uncouth music unfit for mainstream consumption, take a listen to the album Hymn of the Immortal Wind by MONO. It is the single most beautiful piece of art I've ever heard, and a lot of it's due to Albini's knowledge of engineering and recording records. Seriously, take a listen. He's really good at what he does.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 20, 2014 16:04:52 GMT -6
I think I see both sides to this. I personally am a huge proponent of Albini and his philosophy regarding the music industry, but have spent some time in my past working with Nashville songwriters and such. I don't think anything Albini's said is relevant to people involved in old record business. He's gone on the record to say that no one should try to make a career out of music; do it as a hobby and if it makes enough money, spend more time on it. Albini merely sees his engineering and mixing duties as a day job, and his bands are just side projects he does for fun. I think the best thing for people not living in that paradigm to do is to just fucking ignore everything Mr. Albini has said and move on to find solutions for your problems. He is not the guy to ask how to save Nashville, unless you want artsy-fartsy punk rock to invade your city. For underground/DIY types like myself, I wholeheartedly agree with everything he's said IN THE CONTEXT of punk, underground, and whatnot. Any of you ever booked a house show tour? It brings in a shit ton of money. No middle management, no label, no managers, just split between the band members minus the expenses to travel and eat. There is literally no better time to be in an underground band. And as a side note, though Albini is known to work with a lot of uncouth music unfit for mainstream consumption, take a listen to the album Hymn of the Immortal Wind by MONO. It is the single most beautiful piece of art I've ever heard, and a lot of it's due to Albini's knowledge of engineering and recording records. Seriously, take a listen. He's really good at what he does. Much better said than the garbage that I spewed.
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Post by sinasoid on Nov 20, 2014 16:31:11 GMT -6
but his own music clearly never went far, which is why I joked about there being maybe 50 people who cared about it. Yeah, maybe about 50 people in my residential neighborhood. All of his bands hold legendary status where I live. I can't really go to any rock show around here without meeting someone who doesn't own a Big Black, Rapeman, or Shellac record. His bands are much more far reaching than you might think. All this to say, I wouldn't dismiss the underground scene as something inferior or insignificant to the big record business model. It's simply different. Two completely separate industries operating on completely different business models. What's good for one business model will be terrible for the other. The internet is bad for the big record industry, the internet is the best thing to ever happen to the underground industry. Is there really a need to bridge the gap? I don't think so. Each need their own solutions to their own issues.
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Post by sinasoid on Nov 20, 2014 16:32:19 GMT -6
I think I see both sides to this. I personally am a huge proponent of Albini and his philosophy regarding the music industry, but have spent some time in my past working with Nashville songwriters and such. I don't think anything Albini's said is relevant to people involved in old record business. He's gone on the record to say that no one should try to make a career out of music; do it as a hobby and if it makes enough money, spend more time on it. Albini merely sees his engineering and mixing duties as a day job, and his bands are just side projects he does for fun. I think the best thing for people not living in that paradigm to do is to just fucking ignore everything Mr. Albini has said and move on to find solutions for your problems. He is not the guy to ask how to save Nashville, unless you want artsy-fartsy punk rock to invade your city. For underground/DIY types like myself, I wholeheartedly agree with everything he's said IN THE CONTEXT of punk, underground, and whatnot. Any of you ever booked a house show tour? It brings in a shit ton of money. No middle management, no label, no managers, just split between the band members minus the expenses to travel and eat. There is literally no better time to be in an underground band. And as a side note, though Albini is known to work with a lot of uncouth music unfit for mainstream consumption, take a listen to the album Hymn of the Immortal Wind by MONO. It is the single most beautiful piece of art I've ever heard, and a lot of it's due to Albini's knowledge of engineering and recording records. Seriously, take a listen. He's really good at what he does. Much better said than the garbage that I spewed. Eh, just got too much time on my hands.
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Post by popmann on Nov 20, 2014 17:26:50 GMT -6
...and it doesn't make it stink less.
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Post by kevinnyc on Nov 20, 2014 20:14:17 GMT -6
So, some guy from a band maybe 50 people gave a shit about is lecturing about how other artists approach protecting their work? Why anyone cares about what he has to say escapes me. When Keith Richards speak up, I'm listening. What makes you think he's lecturing? He stating his opinions in front of people who obviously liked to listen, otherwise they would've walked out. If you don't agree with him, fine, nothing wrong with that. But then just don't listen and walk away. And, Keith Richards, while I like the guy as a unique character and appreciate what he does, he doesn't impress me as a musician at all. Mediocre to put it politely. Only my view, of course, but since you've stated yours I guess I'm allowed to state mine. While I could technically play circles around Keith I think I'd be quite happy having a 50 year career writing and playing absolutely classic (albeit simple) rock riffs that are permanently etched into each and every one of our minds.
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Post by levon on Nov 21, 2014 0:37:42 GMT -6
What makes you think he's lecturing? He stating his opinions in front of people who obviously liked to listen, otherwise they would've walked out. If you don't agree with him, fine, nothing wrong with that. But then just don't listen and walk away. And, Keith Richards, while I like the guy as a unique character and appreciate what he does, he doesn't impress me as a musician at all. Mediocre to put it politely. Only my view, of course, but since you've stated yours I guess I'm allowed to state mine. While I could technically play circles around Keith I think I'd be quite happy having a 50 year career writing and playing absolutely classic (albeit simple) rock riffs that are permanently etched into each and every one of our minds. This I absolutely agree with!
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Post by levon on Nov 21, 2014 0:55:32 GMT -6
Hi Levon, I realize Mr. Albini has worked on lots of records and is considered an excellent engineer. He seems like a great guy for artists to work with, but his own music clearly never went far, which is why I joked about there being maybe 50 people who cared about it. I've seen my income drop by more than 90% from the new digital paradigm. I think artists are basically being screwed, and just learning workarounds to cope with it. Historically, this isn't anything new, artists were at the beck and call of royalty since time immemorial. But, when guys who were not part of the original NYC Punk music scene wax poetic about it, I have to call bullshit on them, I was there, on the inside, from the very beginning. I also must admit, I don't have time to spend reading everything he had to say in his lectures or articles, so I may be rushing to judgement, but I did read enough to get the gist of what he was saying. I'm not trying to crack wise here, but a keynote address by definition is a lecture. As for not agreeing with him, well, I think it's important that musicians use their voice to promote fair treatment, not sit back and smile while being kicked to the gutter. The Chinese don't care about copyrights, and we're heading in that direction ourselves now, because congressman basically don't understand how it works, and powerful business interests seduce them easily. My friend had 1.4 million plays of his song on Spotify, and he got a $45 check. Do I need to say much more? I just remembered, another friend had a song of his featured in the most popular British tv comedy. In the scene, girls were jumping up and down in their bedroom, dancing to his track for over a minute and a half, (an eternity in TV time), and he also received a check for.. $45, ( what's up with that number?) Martin, funny, I can agree with almost everything you say here re. artists being screwed (now and then) and the Spotify scam. We're pretty much on the same side here. As for Albini, I'm certainly not an Albini devotee, I don't even know most of the stuff he produced, I hated punk rock with a passion and I was never too much into indie rock. So I can't comment on his involvement with the true punk scene. And that's the point, I don't care who he is or what he does, the essence of what Albini says rings very true for me. Whether he sold 50 records or 50 million or whether he waxes about something he was no part of is pretty much irrelevant for me. We all state our opinion and I know that I, for one, definitely sold less than Albini. I also don't believe that he is against fair treatment/payment or promotes 'sitting back and smile while being kicked to the gutter'. That's not what I took away from this. Rather, I like his attitude of think positive, stop moaning about things you won't change anymore, use the internet as a tool for your own benefit and don't rely on labels and publishers that will only screw you as much as they always did. Or maybe even more now that physical sales are not what they used to be. And don't forget, I see this from my European point of view, things might be very different at your end of the world. Or maybe not so much.
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Post by levon on Nov 21, 2014 1:02:51 GMT -6
One more word on Keith Richards. I kinda like the guy. He's a true character and he undoubtedly has created a big piece of music history. I just don't see him as a brilliant musician, even though he was, at a time, quite brilliant in his simplicity. For me, the Stones were good up until 'Exile'. After that, meh. I recently saw a 2013 Stones concert on YouTube, could've been in Philadelphia but I'm not sure. Anyway, they invited other people on stage to play with them. Big mistake. They invited John Mayer. Major big mistake. John clearly showed how mediocre Keith and also Ron Wood are when he traded licks and solos with them. The difference was ridiculous. Only my opinion of course. Sorry for the OT.
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Post by kevinnyc on Nov 21, 2014 6:26:31 GMT -6
No argument there.....yet there is not one John Mayer tune in my head that I could hum right now....though there are dozens of Stones tunes. And I'm not even a fan.
Edit: one John Mayer tune popped into my head.
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