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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 8, 2015 19:05:10 GMT -6
Hello, everyone! After reading this entire thread, I decided to join in to offer my experience dealing with Ross Martin. It seems things have been quiet in this thread, so I figured I'd bump it. I have ordered PCM4222 yesterday(12/7). It wasn't an order to build scenario. The unit was purchased from the 'on sale' section of the website. According to Ross, that unit was build by mistake, so it is ready to go. Ross replied to both of my emails within 24 hours. So that's a good start. Not certain if I will get another email with shipping confirmation, but he did state that unit has been tested and is ready to go as soon as it is packaged. I will continue reporting as things develop. On a side note: I currently use RME Hdspe Aio card. From the feedback I came across from different people, converters on this particular card are average at best. I recently added Dangerous Music Source to my set up and DAC quality difference is definitely noticeable. Should I expect a significant bump in quality of AD conversion after upgrading to PCM4222? Welcome, properagenda...Absolutely...although the difference might not be as noticeable at first compared to the DA side of things.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 8, 2015 19:06:30 GMT -6
Poor Tony...
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 8, 2015 19:17:03 GMT -6
Poor Tony... he said he's waiting on the arrival of 4 chips, then they're on their way..... i'm going to start holding my breath, it was nice knowing ya'll.... 8)
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Post by properagenda on Dec 8, 2015 19:26:49 GMT -6
yes, but don't expect to hear that improvement for about a year! Also, welcome to the forum, not because i feel the need to welcome you, but because I'm afraid not to, considering your avatar.. Well, either way, I appreciate your welcome. :-) And I do hope that you get your order in time for Christmas, even though I get a feeling you're not holding your breath.
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Post by properagenda on Dec 8, 2015 19:35:32 GMT -6
Hello, everyone! After reading this entire thread, I decided to join in to offer my experience dealing with Ross Martin. It seems things have been quiet in this thread, so I figured I'd bump it. I have ordered PCM4222 yesterday(12/7). It wasn't an order to build scenario. The unit was purchased from the 'on sale' section of the website. According to Ross, that unit was build by mistake, so it is ready to go. Ross replied to both of my emails within 24 hours. So that's a good start. Not certain if I will get another email with shipping confirmation, but he did state that unit has been tested and is ready to go as soon as it is packaged. I will continue reporting as things develop. On a side note: I currently use RME Hdspe Aio card. From the feedback I came across from different people, converters on this particular card are average at best. I recently added Dangerous Music Source to my set up and DAC quality difference is definitely noticeable. Should I expect a significant bump in quality of AD conversion after upgrading to PCM4222? Welcome, properagenda ...Absolutely...although the difference might not be as noticeable at first compared to the DA side of things. I'm hoping that it will at least make enough difference to justify the purchase. I'm certainly not expecting as big of a bump in quality as I've experienced with switching over to Source's DAC, but I will have to wait and see. I need to get the unit first. Fingers crossed. I also appreciate your welcome. Thank you. And I can't believe I was not aware of this forum's existence until few days ago.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 8, 2015 20:31:11 GMT -6
There hasn't been much marketing...OK, there has been NO marketing. Invite your friends! You get a free toaster when you do...just ask anyone.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 8, 2015 20:32:20 GMT -6
BTW - AD is harder to evaluate until you start stacking things...but you can rest assured knowing this is giving you a great transparent entry point.
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Post by properagenda on Dec 8, 2015 21:27:13 GMT -6
There hasn't been much marketing...OK, there has been NO marketing. Invite your friends! You get a free toaster when you do...just ask anyone. A good resource is a good resource. I haven't been here long enough, obviously, but from what I've seen/read so far...this forum comes off much more laid back as far as interaction between members go. That comparison is based on my experience with gearslutz and KVR. At least, that is my first impression.
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 8, 2015 21:27:42 GMT -6
Ross's stuff looks cheap, but sounds expensive. Hopefully you get yours quickly as promised, though they're not exactly known for accurate estimates. I love my toaster, by the way.
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Post by properagenda on Dec 8, 2015 21:34:27 GMT -6
BTW - AD is harder to evaluate until you start stacking things...but you can rest assured knowing this is giving you a great transparent entry point. By stacking things you mean outboard gear, right? I'm still very much ITB at the moment, but I am slowly starting to venture into the world of hardware. Well, not really. Just barely scratching the surface. Few days ago I've purchased my first piece of gear - a Sebatron VMP-2000e preamp. Something tells me that this is only the beginning and I'm on a verge of developing a serious and expensive addiction.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 8, 2015 21:44:51 GMT -6
BTW - AD is harder to evaluate until you start stacking things...but you can rest assured knowing this is giving you a great transparent entry point. By stacking things you mean outboard gear, right? I'm still very much ITB at the moment, but I am slowly starting to venture into the world of hardware. Well, not really. Just barely scratching the surface. Few days ago I've purchased my first piece of gear - a Sebatron VMP-2000e preamp. Something tells me that this is only the beginning and I'm on a verge of developing a serious and expensive addiction. he means multiple tracks of instruments AD converted into your daw, that is when the benefits of great AD and clocking become obvious for most, a single track not so much.
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Post by properagenda on Dec 8, 2015 21:49:15 GMT -6
By stacking things you mean outboard gear, right? I'm still very much ITB at the moment, but I am slowly starting to venture into the world of hardware. Well, not really. Just barely scratching the surface. Few days ago I've purchased my first piece of gear - a Sebatron VMP-2000e preamp. Something tells me that this is only the beginning and I'm on a verge of developing a serious and expensive addiction. he means multiple tracks of instruments AD converted into your daw, that is when the benefits of great AD and clocking become obvious for most, a single track not so much. Got it. Thank you for clarification.
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Post by properagenda on Jan 14, 2016 0:59:23 GMT -6
Alright! It's time for an update. I do, however, require some of your guys' guidance. I'm glad that I ordered a unit that has already been built or so it seemed according to the RM's website. It took almost a month for unit to arrive. I placed the order on 12/8 and received the unit on 1/4. Whether this time frame can be qualified as fast service is very much debatable, but I'm over it Now, the unit seems to be working as far as I can tell: it powers on and I can see input level LED responding to an incoming signal, but I'm still unable to properly test it at this point. I blame that on my inexperience with setting up an external AD than on anything else. Currently, I'm not able to figure out how to properly incorporate PCM4222 into my chain. The way I had things set up prior worked fine as I used AD of my interface. The set up that worked fine: 1)Interface to DA via AES; 2)DA to mic-pre's di via TRS; mic-pre back to interface via XLR. So what I need to do, at least to my understanding, is to run a signal out of mic-pre via XLR into PCM4222 and then from PCM4222 to interface via AES(I know that I can also use SPDIF or ADAT as my interface has those options too, but I only have AES cable, hence the choice) in order for me to record it in my DAW. Correct me if I'm wrong please. I also have a word clock module. It's an add on module which connects directly to my RME interface and provides one clock input and two clock outputs. This seems to be the part that I'm mostly unsure of. If I'm understanding correctly, I would need to set up my interface as a master clock and set PCM4222 as a slave. Then I would run a BNC cable from word clock module output of my interface to PCM4222's master clock input. Set PCM4222 into slave mode with the same SR and BR as a master. After that run AES out of PCM4222 into AES input of my inteface. I would greatly appreciate any assistance in clearing this up for me as I'm starting to lose hope that I'll be able to figure this out all on my own. Thank you in advance.
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Post by LesC on Jan 14, 2016 2:30:33 GMT -6
Usually the ADC is set up as the master. So yes, you would connect the PCM4222 to your interface via AES, slaving the interface. You don't need an external clock in this scenario, the clock in the PCM4222 is supposed to be really good. Most people feel an external clock is only necessary when you have a complex setup with multiple devices that need to be synchronized. For a more simple setup like yours, an external clock will most likely just add jitter. An exception might be something like the Antelope hyper-expensive super-duper clocks, but even these are controversial as to whether they improve the sound or are detrimental. If I were you, I would first try the setup with the PCM4222 and the Source DAC both connected to the interface via AES only, with the PCM4222 as the master. If you like, you can connect a BNC cable from the PCM4222 output to the interface input, but that really shouldn't be necessary, and you can see if you think there is an improvement. I don't think your additional word clock module is of any use in either of these configurations. AES is a good choice, it's considered a higher quality connection than SPDIF coax or SPDIF optical. I don't believe the PCM4222 has an ADAT connection by the way, it's a SPDIF optical connection which physically is the same but the digital protocol is completely different.
Everything I said above is probably wrong, but I'm sure Svart or someone will correct me.
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Post by RicFoxx on Jan 14, 2016 8:20:48 GMT -6
Wow, you are lucky that you received your unit quickly!
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Post by svart on Jan 14, 2016 8:42:17 GMT -6
Usually the ADC is set up as the master. So yes, you would connect the PCM4222 to your interface via AES, slaving the interface. You don't need an external clock in this scenario, the clock in the PCM4222 is supposed to be really good. Most people feel an external clock is only necessary when you have a complex setup with multiple devices that need to be synchronized. For a more simple setup like yours, an external clock will most likely just add jitter. An exception might be something like the Antelope hyper-expensive super-duper clocks, but even these are controversial as to whether they improve the sound or are detrimental. If I were you, I would first try the setup with the PCM4222 and the Source DAC both connected to the interface via AES only, with the PCM4222 as the master. If you like, you can connect a BNC cable from the PCM4222 output to the interface input, but that really shouldn't be necessary, and you can see if you think there is an improvement. I don't think your additional word clock module is of any use in either of these configurations. AES is a good choice, it's considered a higher quality connection than SPDIF coax or SPDIF optical. I don't believe the PCM4222 has an ADAT connection by the way, it's a SPDIF optical connection which physically is the same but the digital protocol is completely different. Everything I said above is probably wrong, but I'm sure Svart or someone will correct me. SPDIF and AES3 are the same protocol/signal for all intents-and-purposes. The AES signal contains extra control bits that are ignored by SPDIF designated receivers, and SPDIF signals have bits for copy protection and other stuff that are ignored by AES designated receivers. In fact, modern AES/SPDIF transceivers are the same, with a control pin/bit that selects "pro/AES" or "Consumer/SPDIF" modes. So, AES is no "better" that SPDIF for the most part. You can do longer runs of cable with the differential AES cable, but unless you're going over 25ft or more, SPDIF on quality coax is just as good. You're correct though, that the PCM4222 ADC should be set as the Master in all cases. SPDIF/AES is designed to be a serial connection, so each device is the master for the device after it. AES/SPDIF protocol embeds the clock into the signal itself, and is thus self-clocking. No external clocks are needed. Set your ADC for master, set your interface for slave on incoming AES/SPDIF and that's all you need to do.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 14, 2016 9:38:42 GMT -6
A month! That's called overnight delivery by RM standards, pre built huh?
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Post by LesC on Jan 14, 2016 11:43:57 GMT -6
Usually the ADC is set up as the master. So yes, you would connect the PCM4222 to your interface via AES, slaving the interface. You don't need an external clock in this scenario, the clock in the PCM4222 is supposed to be really good. Most people feel an external clock is only necessary when you have a complex setup with multiple devices that need to be synchronized. For a more simple setup like yours, an external clock will most likely just add jitter. An exception might be something like the Antelope hyper-expensive super-duper clocks, but even these are controversial as to whether they improve the sound or are detrimental. If I were you, I would first try the setup with the PCM4222 and the Source DAC both connected to the interface via AES only, with the PCM4222 as the master. If you like, you can connect a BNC cable from the PCM4222 output to the interface input, but that really shouldn't be necessary, and you can see if you think there is an improvement. I don't think your additional word clock module is of any use in either of these configurations. AES is a good choice, it's considered a higher quality connection than SPDIF coax or SPDIF optical. I don't believe the PCM4222 has an ADAT connection by the way, it's a SPDIF optical connection which physically is the same but the digital protocol is completely different. Everything I said above is probably wrong, but I'm sure Svart or someone will correct me. SPDIF and AES3 are the same protocol/signal for all intents-and-purposes. The AES signal contains extra control bits that are ignored by SPDIF designated receivers, and SPDIF signals have bits for copy protection and other stuff that are ignored by AES designated receivers. In fact, modern AES/SPDIF transceivers are the same, with a control pin/bit that selects "pro/AES" or "Consumer/SPDIF" modes. So, AES is no "better" that SPDIF for the most part. You can do longer runs of cable with the differential AES cable, but unless you're going over 25ft or more, SPDIF on quality coax is just as good. You're correct though, that the PCM4222 ADC should be set as the Master in all cases. SPDIF/AES is designed to be a serial connection, so each device is the master for the device after it. AES/SPDIF protocol embeds the clock into the signal itself, and is thus self-clocking. No external clocks are needed. Set your ADC for master, set your interface for slave on incoming AES/SPDIF and that's all you need to do. AES is higher voltage and uses balanced connections, and the AES connectors are considered more secure with better contact than coax, so less likely to have induced noise from nearby devices, but as you say, it shouldn't matter until you get into long runs. Still, AES is considered "pro" and SPDIF is considered "consumer" or "semi-pro", and most companies such as Lynx recommend using AES whenever you have a choice. I don't obsess over it, but I use AES whenever I can and most of my equipment has AES connections, including the Burl ADC, the Dangerous Source DAC, and the RME UFX. Having said all that, I use my SvartBox DAC-ADC, which is SPDIF coax, connected to my RME UFX AES connectors in-and-out. I simply use a short cable with coax on one end and AES connector on the other, supplied by Svart, and it works perfectly. I think that would be true for most modern interfaces, AES or SPDIF coax shouldn't matter.
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Post by properagenda on Jan 14, 2016 12:45:04 GMT -6
Usually the ADC is set up as the master. So yes, you would connect the PCM4222 to your interface via AES, slaving the interface. You don't need an external clock in this scenario, the clock in the PCM4222 is supposed to be really good. Most people feel an external clock is only necessary when you have a complex setup with multiple devices that need to be synchronized. For a more simple setup like yours, an external clock will most likely just add jitter. An exception might be something like the Antelope hyper-expensive super-duper clocks, but even these are controversial as to whether they improve the sound or are detrimental. If I were you, I would first try the setup with the PCM4222 and the Source DAC both connected to the interface via AES only, with the PCM4222 as the master. If you like, you can connect a BNC cable from the PCM4222 output to the interface input, but that really shouldn't be necessary, and you can see if you think there is an improvement. I don't think your additional word clock module is of any use in either of these configurations. AES is a good choice, it's considered a higher quality connection than SPDIF coax or SPDIF optical. I don't believe the PCM4222 has an ADAT connection by the way, it's a SPDIF optical connection which physically is the same but the digital protocol is completely different. Everything I said above is probably wrong, but I'm sure Svart or someone will correct me. SPDIF and AES3 are the same protocol/signal for all intents-and-purposes. The AES signal contains extra control bits that are ignored by SPDIF designated receivers, and SPDIF signals have bits for copy protection and other stuff that are ignored by AES designated receivers. In fact, modern AES/SPDIF transceivers are the same, with a control pin/bit that selects "pro/AES" or "Consumer/SPDIF" modes. So, AES is no "better" that SPDIF for the most part. You can do longer runs of cable with the differential AES cable, but unless you're going over 25ft or more, SPDIF on quality coax is just as good. You're correct though, that the PCM4222 ADC should be set as the Master in all cases. SPDIF/AES is designed to be a serial connection, so each device is the master for the device after it. AES/SPDIF protocol embeds the clock into the signal itself, and is thus self-clocking. No external clocks are needed. Set your ADC for master, set your interface for slave on incoming AES/SPDIF and that's all you need to do. Actually, this is exactly what I did initially as it seemed logical. I mean, I set PCM4222 as a master and ran AES out to my interface. Unfortunately, that didn't work. I could not get any signal into my DAW. As far as I can tell, I tried every possible routing scenario and clock input setting within my interface.I would be really surprised if that is where mistake was made. Afterwards, I even emailed Ross and asked him if he actually tested the unit before shipping, and he assured me he did. Said unit was working and sounding great(even though he never explained why the unit which was supposedly build and ready to go didn't get shipped until three weeks after the order date), and that it is highly unlikely AES port is faulty. He also mentioned that PCM4222 AES won't work in slave mode without word clock input. I think that's what confused me, so I started thinking that perhaps in order to get everything to work I would need to slave PCM4222 to my interface, and not the other way around. Now I'm really starting to wonder there actually might be a problem with AES port. Can't think of any other reasons. Could it be a faulty AES input on my interface? It's a break out cable. I know that AES out is functioning properly, so it doesn't seem very likely that AES input of that same break out cable wouldn't be working. I will go through the whole routine again and see if there's anything I might've overlooked during my initial process. I might even have to buy a SPDIF cable just to check if that route will work. Things keep getting more interesting. Either way, this is a learning experience for me, and I greatly appreciate everyone's assistance.
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Post by properagenda on Jan 14, 2016 12:46:11 GMT -6
Wow, you are lucky that you received your unit quickly! Well, for a little while I thought so too...now I'm not so sure about that.
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Post by properagenda on Jan 14, 2016 12:52:38 GMT -6
A month! That's called overnight delivery by RM standards, pre built huh? I get a feeling there was something wrong with the unit. He said it was a wrong order, but I won't be surprised if it was a return of a faulty unit that was "build", but needed to be refurbished prior to shipping out again. Who knows? I do know that unit wasn't shipped until 1/1 or 1/2, so technically it was an overnight delivery
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 14, 2016 12:55:14 GMT -6
A month! That's called overnight delivery by RM standards, pre built huh? I get a feeling there was something wrong with the unit. He said it was a wrong order, but I won't be surprised if it was a return of a faulty unit that was "build", but needed to be refurbished prior to shipping out again. Who knows? I do know that unit wasn't shipped until 1/1 or 1/2, so technically it was an overnight delivery can you pull the lid and take a high rez pic of the inside and post it? that would be great, and we can tell you if anything looks suspect, like silicone holding down heatsinks... "facepalm"
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Post by properagenda on Jan 14, 2016 13:19:31 GMT -6
I get a feeling there was something wrong with the unit. He said it was a wrong order, but I won't be surprised if it was a return of a faulty unit that was "build", but needed to be refurbished prior to shipping out again. Who knows? I do know that unit wasn't shipped until 1/1 or 1/2, so technically it was an overnight delivery can you pull the lid and take a high rez pic of the inside and post it? that would be great, and we can tell you if anything looks suspect, like silicone holding down heatsinks... "facepalm" That shouldn't be a problem. I should be able to post some pics later this evening.
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Post by svart on Jan 14, 2016 13:35:55 GMT -6
SPDIF and AES3 are the same protocol/signal for all intents-and-purposes. The AES signal contains extra control bits that are ignored by SPDIF designated receivers, and SPDIF signals have bits for copy protection and other stuff that are ignored by AES designated receivers. In fact, modern AES/SPDIF transceivers are the same, with a control pin/bit that selects "pro/AES" or "Consumer/SPDIF" modes. So, AES is no "better" that SPDIF for the most part. You can do longer runs of cable with the differential AES cable, but unless you're going over 25ft or more, SPDIF on quality coax is just as good. You're correct though, that the PCM4222 ADC should be set as the Master in all cases. SPDIF/AES is designed to be a serial connection, so each device is the master for the device after it. AES/SPDIF protocol embeds the clock into the signal itself, and is thus self-clocking. No external clocks are needed. Set your ADC for master, set your interface for slave on incoming AES/SPDIF and that's all you need to do. AES is higher voltage and uses balanced connections, and the AES connectors are considered more secure with better contact than coax, so less likely to have induced noise from nearby devices, but as you say, it shouldn't matter until you get into long runs. Still, AES is considered "pro" and SPDIF is considered "consumer" or "semi-pro", and most companies such as Lynx recommend using AES whenever you have a choice. I don't obsess over it, but I use AES whenever I can and most of my equipment has AES connections, including the Burl ADC, the Dangerous Source DAC, and the RME UFX. Having said all that, I use my SvartBox DAC-ADC, which is SPDIF coax, connected to my RME UFX AES connectors in-and-out. I simply use a short cable with coax on one end and AES connector on the other, supplied by Svart, and it works perfectly. I think that would be true for most modern interfaces, AES or SPDIF coax shouldn't matter. AES uses *differential* connection. Balanced only refers to impedance balancing. You can have a single-ended signal that is impedance balanced and still "balanced". "Differential" refers to the signal having two signals, one with reverse polarity at 0deg phase alignment. And yes, AES is slightly higher voltage, but the receiver ICs don't care. They have Schmidtt trigger inputs, so anything above the lowest voltage trigger point will trigger a "high" transition. They don't care one bit (pun intended) about the difference between the absolute voltages. Also, with differential signaling, the matching of the differential signal timings matter greatly. If one conductor is slightly longer, then they are no longer in perfect phase/time alignment and can result in imperfect summation through the diff-amp receiver. While this doesn't have too much bearing in the real world, the worst case is that the summed output signal is lower in voltage or skewed in time. This is part of the reason most RF systems use single ended signal traces and coax rather than twisted pairs. In the case of requiring differential signalling, the traces are often matched down to the mil (1/1000th"). All said, the differential vs. coax argument is mostly an academic one, unless you're dealing with running cables around noisy sources or long distances. I wouldn't worry about using one or the other.
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Post by svart on Jan 14, 2016 13:39:38 GMT -6
SPDIF and AES3 are the same protocol/signal for all intents-and-purposes. The AES signal contains extra control bits that are ignored by SPDIF designated receivers, and SPDIF signals have bits for copy protection and other stuff that are ignored by AES designated receivers. In fact, modern AES/SPDIF transceivers are the same, with a control pin/bit that selects "pro/AES" or "Consumer/SPDIF" modes. So, AES is no "better" that SPDIF for the most part. You can do longer runs of cable with the differential AES cable, but unless you're going over 25ft or more, SPDIF on quality coax is just as good. You're correct though, that the PCM4222 ADC should be set as the Master in all cases. SPDIF/AES is designed to be a serial connection, so each device is the master for the device after it. AES/SPDIF protocol embeds the clock into the signal itself, and is thus self-clocking. No external clocks are needed. Set your ADC for master, set your interface for slave on incoming AES/SPDIF and that's all you need to do. Actually, this is exactly what I did initially as it seemed logical. I mean, I set PCM4222 as a master and ran AES out to my interface. Unfortunately, that didn't work. I could not get any signal into my DAW. As far as I can tell, I tried every possible routing scenario and clock input setting within my interface.I would be really surprised if that is where mistake was made. Afterwards, I even emailed Ross and asked him if he actually tested the unit before shipping, and he assured me he did. Said unit was working and sounding great(even though he never explained why the unit which was supposedly build and ready to go didn't get shipped until three weeks after the order date), and that it is highly unlikely AES port is faulty. He also mentioned that PCM4222 AES won't work in slave mode without word clock input. I think that's what confused me, so I started thinking that perhaps in order to get everything to work I would need to slave PCM4222 to my interface, and not the other way around. Now I'm really starting to wonder there actually might be a problem with AES port. Can't think of any other reasons. Could it be a faulty AES input on my interface? It's a break out cable. I know that AES out is functioning properly, so it doesn't seem very likely that AES input of that same break out cable wouldn't be working. I will go through the whole routine again and see if there's anything I might've overlooked during my initial process. I might even have to buy a SPDIF cable just to check if that route will work. Things keep getting more interesting. Either way, this is a learning experience for me, and I greatly appreciate everyone's assistance. What's your interface? There have been reports of interfaces needing rebooting after changing their clock sources to "SPDIF" or "AES", as in someone changes the clock source in the software settings and the unit acts like it took the settings but nothing happens until the interface is rebooted.
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