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Post by donr on Sept 10, 2014 10:04:47 GMT -6
I think video killed the value and enjoyment of recorded music our generation enjoyed. Once one's mental association of a song became tied to a TV image, instead of a situation, moment or experience in one's own life, it devalued the association.
Combine that with the destruction of the music distribution and ownership model that the internet, file compression, and the digital age has wrought, Jim's right, music to today's ears is about as disposable as any video clip on youtube.
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Post by donr on Sept 10, 2014 10:11:06 GMT -6
Music in 2014: More for less money. Apple in 2014: Less for more money. A match made in hell. i read that the price of the first available Apple computer cost $666.66! Lol I paid $4000 for a 25mHz 68030 4meg RAM monochrome display Apple Powerbook 170 in 1992. |
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Post by junior on Sept 10, 2014 10:22:35 GMT -6
I still stand the theory that those messages like "for free" are killing music biz. The process is slowley but steaddy. I dunno, I think theres a LOT more wrong with the business than this (like the prevalence of shitty disposable music), but that's another discussion… FWIW, I like U2 and the new album has a few good songs on it. Just can't stand that Joey Ramone single…  EDIT: Looks like donr beat me to my point… LOL |
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 10, 2014 10:25:14 GMT -6
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 10, 2014 11:00:46 GMT -6
I still stand the theory that those messages like "for free" are killing music biz. The process is slowley but steaddy. I dunno, I think theres a LOT more wrong with the business than this (like the prevalence of shitty disposable music), but that's another discussion… FWIW, I like U2 and the new album has a few good songs on it. Just can't stand that Joey Ramone single… EDIT: Looks like donr beat me to my point… LOL If you followed a few of my posts you would know that I cant disagree with you. I even say good music has been killed because of DAWs on every laptop. Read my posts in the limitation topic. We live in a time where we have a mixture of stupidity and greed. This cant lead to good music anymore. You know its true when the bean-counters advise musicians to use software strings; instead of a nice string quartet. Plastic World. |
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Post by drbill on Sept 10, 2014 11:20:23 GMT -6
Hey.....wait a minute. I been reading these forums for years and following the changes......
First they told me I had to tour to make album sales.
Then they told me I had to do an album to support the tour.
Then they told me I had to sell merch to support the making of an album so that I could tour and loose money.
THEN, they said I needed corporate sponsorship to support the whole thing.
How is this any different? Once upon a time, no self respecting musician would allow their music to "sell products for the man". Now, it seems like it's everyone's MAIN goal to place their songs in a commercial. If the new-age, high-tech soothsayers who "know how business is supposed to be done" in 2014 say corporate sponsorship of tours, etc. is mandatory, how is U2's album anything other than a stellar example of how we are supposed to market music in the new millennium? Seems to me like they got some damn smart management....
Here are the options if corporate sponsorship is evil - choose your favorite :
- The price of an album goes up to $30, and the cost of a single to $3. (or higher)
- The internet gets locked down tighter than a gnat's ass
- The Feds make real laws and start putting people in jail for stealing music
- ALL musicians get day jobs and give up the concept of high tech gear and studios and tours and "albums"
- A whole industry and it's associated support and talent die and the world moves on and starts making their own music on Gma's piano in her parlor
- The gov'ment puts all musicians on subsidy welfare for the good of the state, and we make music for fun, not profit
- We close our eyes, bury our heads and pretend nothing has changed while we are slowly and methodically euthanized....
Choose your fav option and move on.... Mourning for the past is not going to move us anywhere. And believe me, I'm as sad about it as any one.
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 10, 2014 11:45:16 GMT -6
beta dog submission aside, I think the greater point is, the dubious image of Bono and U2 being holier than thou, has just been flushed. It seems they spit in the face of every joe trying to scrape a living in the music industry, by FALSELY claiming a give away that only helps propagate and reinforce the disastrous paradigm that music is worth nothing but the time it takes to steal it.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Sept 10, 2014 12:00:10 GMT -6
I was going to save this rather provocative discussion for another thread but it seems appropriate to bring it up in this one. Ole Garth seems to have the notion that he is going to do things "his" way with this new album release by only selling it on his website. By a show of hands, how many think it's going to fly off the shelves??
U2 is IMO making this move to be current. We ALL know music is free. No one has to pay for it unless they choose. Will Garth's music be pirated? Yes. Will U2's? Yes. So why fight it? I think perhaps U2 is trying to buy the people here through the perception of giving them something. It's the same Jedi mind tricks that awesome waiters and waitresses use to make big bucks. Simply act like you'll do anything for a customer and people are willing to open up their wallets. Doesn't mean they will do anything but that doesn't matter as long as it's perceived that they will.
Garth is in for a rude awakening. These are not the brick and mortar days in which he sold a zillion hard copies. No, music is free fellas. The trick now is to figure out how to convince people to pay for something they can get for free. Artist must become good waiters or they will starve. My guess is Garth will never be willing to wait tables.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 10, 2014 13:01:44 GMT -6
I think video killed the value and enjoyment of recorded music our generation enjoyed. Once one's mental association of a song became tied to a TV image, instead of a situation, moment or experience in one's own life, it devalued the association. #truth |
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Post by svart on Sept 10, 2014 13:10:16 GMT -6
I know a lot of bands who yearn to get their stuff placed in TV/Movies/commercials, simply because it's the only place left that will have some monetary return.
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 10, 2014 13:36:04 GMT -6
I was going to save this rather provocative discussion for another thread but it seems appropriate to bring it up in this one. Ole Garth seems to have the notion that he is going to do things "his" way with this new album release by only selling it on his website. By a show of hands, how many think it's going to fly off the shelves?? U2 is IMO making this move to be current. We ALL know music is free. No one has to pay for it unless they choose. Will Garth's music be pirated? Yes. Will U2's? Yes. So why fight it? I think perhaps U2 is trying to buy the people here through the perception of giving them something. It's the same Jedi mind tricks that awesome waiters and waitresses use to make big bucks. Simply act like you'll do anything for a customer and people are willing to open up their wallets. Doesn't mean they will do anything but that doesn't matter as long as it's perceived that they will. Garth is in for a rude awakening. These are not the brick and mortar days in which he sold a zillion hard copies. No, music is free fellas. The trick now is to figure out how to convince people to pay for something they can get for free. Artist must become good waiters or they will starve. My guess is Garth will never be willing to wait tables. The diff here is, Garth is afforded the ability to stand on principle, and that is exactly what Uboooo! is afforded, and should have done. As far as acceptance, how the F is stealing ever ok or accepted? smh, the do nothing legislators in this country need to enforce laws. We live in a society free of consequence, from bankers to music pirates! This "oh well" acceptance is analogous to circling the drain, and the concentric rings are getting smaller and quicker... As a side, if you were to download HBO movies pirate style, they will find you, and see to it the laws are enforced, i had a roommate that was served once upon a time, How do they manage that?(seriously i have 0 idea), if they made harsh examples out of a few, imv, the nightmare would end for the working joes in the music industry, and they could get paid for their work and live decent lives. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 10, 2014 13:44:38 GMT -6
They should have sold it and then given the money away. This undermines all musicians, only those already rich and famous aren't affected negatively. This is self serving, period.
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Post by jeromemason on Sept 10, 2014 14:28:31 GMT -6
I don't know if this will ever be fixed. Pono is really cool, but it's cool for a generation that cared about quality. Do you really think that a 20 year old college student who has a hidden ear bud in one ear while in class gives a rats rear over how it sounds? Would they be willing to conceal a special hifi player to do this, or their iPhone? I'm not downing Pono, I think it's going to be awesome for people like me who want to be able to hear lossless music from a portable device, but the younger generations just simply do not care, especially the 25 and younger we have right now. If we are talking about the FUTURE of music they are the ones you've got to convince, not us. They have just been given a full album of one of the best selling bands of all time, how do you think they will view music after this? How do you think other bands and record labels are going to view things after this? Are we going into an age where the only way to get money for an album is from benevolent billion dollar corporations? What's next? Does Walmart pay AC/DC $X to make an album and then in a publicity stunt offer it on iTunes for free, seems pretty damn logical after yesterday.
What does this do, well it all but assures any artist that has not sold over a million albums a spot on the back of the bus. Most of us make money off those types of artists, actually most made money off the guys getting started or the green talent from record labels, that has been slashed to nothing now, it doesn't exist anymore. Record labels are not putting up money for new talent anymore, so that drives them into their bedrooms with gear they've bought from doing local gigging for 2 years to make an EP that a label MIGHT buy the rights to. This is how the medium (and large) sized studios were all made to shut their doors. The one I was partners in was included. We worked with Atlantic and Warner Brothers and when I was in my early 20's I made more money than my parents and was living the dream. This is not only about songwriters, it's about everyone who pushed all their chips in to make music a career, now what do we do? This has all but become a novelty anymore. If people were polled and asked "would you work 15 hours a day for 30k a year with no promises it would ever increase and is likely to decrease, would you do it?" What do you think the results of that poll would be?
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Post by drbill on Sept 10, 2014 15:04:08 GMT -6
This is not addressed to anyone in particular here....just random musings while I'm waiting for PT to bounce real time.....
You can get mad, you can get bitter or you can find a way to play the game smarter. That's what U2 did. Like it or not. They are playing on new landscape with new rules, and so are the rest of us. Think old-skool and you'll likely be dead - but not before years of complaining and bitterness rots your musical dreams. Think smarter and outside the box and you'll likely stand a chance. I've completely revamped my business model and it's finally starting to pay off. It may never be what I used to make, but it's putting a SMILE on my face every morning, and there is a good possibility that it will turn out BETTER (musically, business-wise and financially) than my old plan. But it took a long time, it took a hellava lotta work, and it took some moves that made me pucker like a sour lemon....
All in all, I believe I'm better off for it. We all make our own choices and chart our own destiny..... Have at it boys! Make some great music!!!
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 10, 2014 15:36:05 GMT -6
cough...bullshit!....cough...^
i have a better idea, find someone who's pirated your music, get a cameraman and Ray Rice, go to the house of the perp(male/female..it obviously doesn't matter), and film the "lights out" blow, then take their $, put YOUR MUSIC on the vid as the sound track, and sell it as a reality show, call it "Getting pay with Ray" Guaranteed hit! you're rich beeitch! lol
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Post by mobeach on Sept 10, 2014 15:55:45 GMT -6
I hate this band even more now. I just feel they're incredibly over rated. And every song sounds the same, they should make an "Edge" pedal then they can compete with Tom Scholtz' Rockman. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 10, 2014 17:45:23 GMT -6
This is not addressed to anyone in particular here....just random musings while I'm waiting for PT to bounce real time..... You can get mad, you can get bitter or you can find a way to play the game smarter. That's what U2 did. Like it or not. They are playing on new landscape with new rules, and so are the rest of us. Think old-skool and you'll likely be dead - but not before years of complaining and bitterness rots your musical dreams. Think smarter and outside the box and you'll likely stand a chance. I've completely revamped my business model and it's finally starting to pay off. It may never be what I used to make, but it's putting a SMILE on my face every morning, and there is a good possibility that it will turn out BETTER (musically, business-wise and financially) than my old plan. But it took a long time, it took a hellava lotta work, and it took some moves that made me pucker like a sour lemon.... All in all, I believe I'm better off for it. We all make our own choices and chart our own destiny..... Have at it boys! Make some great music!!! |
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Post by gouge on Sept 10, 2014 18:02:47 GMT -6
i see this as a very clever move by U2.
they're not giving away their music at all. they've signed a deal with the only people in town paying for music and that will result in an automatic number one hit because so many people will have access. that then increases the value of their product and the wheel spins around and around.
there are many many artists that give away their music. the guard has changed. just go and have a look around bandcamp. I've been to gigs where the artists have given away their music for a "donation amount"
there is nothing new here. artists for a long time have worked on presales of albums so that when realeased they already have several thousand albums "sold" which gets them onto the charts.
artists are making money gigging these days. which is also improving their chops no end. i can't comment on the states but in Australia artists are touring more than ever. i know of people paying their mortgage by doing national tours 2-3 times a year and spending the rest of the time writing and recording new music.
my sons drum teacher earns his entire income working in music stores, teaching drums and gigging.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Sept 10, 2014 18:30:54 GMT -6
I was going to save this rather provocative discussion for another thread but it seems appropriate to bring it up in this one. Ole Garth seems to have the notion that he is going to do things "his" way with this new album release by only selling it on his website. By a show of hands, how many think it's going to fly off the shelves?? U2 is IMO making this move to be current. We ALL know music is free. No one has to pay for it unless they choose. Will Garth's music be pirated? Yes. Will U2's? Yes. So why fight it? I think perhaps U2 is trying to buy the people here through the perception of giving them something. It's the same Jedi mind tricks that awesome waiters and waitresses use to make big bucks. Simply act like you'll do anything for a customer and people are willing to open up their wallets. Doesn't mean they will do anything but that doesn't matter as long as it's perceived that they will. Garth is in for a rude awakening. These are not the brick and mortar days in which he sold a zillion hard copies. No, music is free fellas. The trick now is to figure out how to convince people to pay for something they can get for free. Artist must become good waiters or they will starve. My guess is Garth will never be willing to wait tables. The diff here is, Garth is afforded the ability to stand on principle, and that is exactly what Uboooo! is afforded, and should have done. As far as acceptance, how the F is stealing ever ok or accepted? smh, the do nothing legislators in this country need to enforce laws. We live in a society free of consequence, from bankers to music pirates! This "oh well" acceptance is analogous to circling the drain, and the concentric rings are getting smaller and quicker... As a side, if you were to download HBO movies pirate style, they will find you, and see to it the laws are enforced, i had a roommate that was served once upon a time, How do they manage that?(seriously i have 0 idea), if they made harsh examples out of a few, imv, the nightmare would end for the working joes in the music industry, and they could get paid for their work and live decent lives. It's not about right or wrong anymore. YouTube put the last nail in the coffin for music. Statistics show that nearly 90% of consumed music is from YouTube. My teenage daughter and her friends confirm this in real life for me. I've asked them. It's free. Why should they pay? It's not about going after a little guy, it's about knowing you can't shut down a monster like YouTube which is owned by the biggest monster, Goggle. They are bigger than the government because they have so much money to lobby with, or better said, to buy lawmakers (government). Anyone with half a brain and a 2 channel sound card can record music from YouTube or any streaming site. Is it any different than us sitting by the radio when we were teens with our finger on the cassette recorder waiting to record a certain song on the top 40 countdown? No, only easier. I honestly don't think any form of legislation will ever fix the music industry. It will take someone with a creative solution to break the monopoly that Google has on it. Again, figure out how to convince people to pay for music. Not an easy task. |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Sept 10, 2014 18:41:22 GMT -6
This is not addressed to anyone in particular here....just random musings while I'm waiting for PT to bounce real time..... You can get mad, you can get bitter or you can find a way to play the game smarter. That's what U2 did. Like it or not. They are playing on new landscape with new rules, and so are the rest of us. Think old-skool and you'll likely be dead - but not before years of complaining and bitterness rots your musical dreams. Think smarter and outside the box and you'll likely stand a chance. I've completely revamped my business model and it's finally starting to pay off. It may never be what I used to make, but it's putting a SMILE on my face every morning, and there is a good possibility that it will turn out BETTER (musically, business-wise and financially) than my old plan. But it took a long time, it took a hellava lotta work, and it took some moves that made me pucker like a sour lemon.... All in all, I believe I'm better off for it. We all make our own choices and chart our own destiny..... Have at it boys! Make some great music!!! They'll likely throw rocks at me too but I got to agree with you on this. All the whining in the world never changes a thing. This is simply the way it is in this life. We either play the game the way it is now or get left behind. Not many are willing to do that for different reasons, but mostly because they feel cheated and bitter. Again, whining. Feeling bitter and cheated along with 2 bucks will get you a cup of coffee, so why not try to be an innovator and beat em at their own game? Perhaps U2 is doing this? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 10, 2014 18:53:21 GMT -6
I'm glad you two are willing to give up getting a decent wage.
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Post by jimwilliams on Sept 10, 2014 19:09:11 GMT -6
YouTube put the last nail in the coffin for music. Statistics show that nearly 90% of consumed music is from YouTube. That's the way an unknown bonehead like me can get heard. It's musical democracy. To have fans all over the world for free is liberating. It's great for a hobbyist, bad for a career musician. If you have low expectations, YouTube is just what the doctor ordered. |
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Post by gouge on Sept 10, 2014 19:28:36 GMT -6
i have bought many many many albums because of what i heard on youtube, bandcamp, online radio.
as luck would have it i also bought tickets to the gigs when they came to town.
why?
because i heard a song i didn't pay for that was made available free online.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 10, 2014 19:28:45 GMT -6
This is not addressed to anyone in particular here....just random musings while I'm waiting for PT to bounce real time..... You can get mad, you can get bitter or you can find a way to play the game smarter. That's what U2 did. Like it or not. They are playing on new landscape with new rules, and so are the rest of us. Think old-skool and you'll likely be dead - but not before years of complaining and bitterness rots your musical dreams. Think smarter and outside the box and you'll likely stand a chance. I've completely revamped my business model and it's finally starting to pay off. It may never be what I used to make, but it's putting a SMILE on my face every morning, and there is a good possibility that it will turn out BETTER (musically, business-wise and financially) than my old plan. But it took a long time, it took a hellava lotta work, and it took some moves that made me pucker like a sour lemon.... All in all, I believe I'm better off for it. We all make our own choices and chart our own destiny..... Have at it boys! Make some great music!!! True; business changes all day. And it is all right if someone is going with the change. But one thing should never change. That you, or anyone else, has to do work for free. It is OK to do business in a different way. But that does not solves the problem of minimum royalities streaming services pay. If Bono would have balls he would go to the public and make a clear statement that the busniess model of all Streaming-Services is only paying off for the share holders, not for the musicians. If he would say this loud - goodbye Apple-Deal. And I ask myself why? Fucking Google for example is making 2 Billion a year with You-Tube. You Tube now has the biggest catalogue in music world wide. YT is yet not willed to have a contract with German GEMA for example. I would love to ask Google-Managers why they are doing this, it is ripping of composers. It is stealing!! So now I ask what is your business model?? Trying to get your music in prime-time TV?? Composing for TV ads?? Doing fucking Talent Shows?? Selling Sample-Libraries?? Programming Plug Ins (LOL)?? Composing for Universal Music-Library ?? (Heard that even Sting wants to do it now!) Working for free for services which promise to may choose your song for TV adverts? To me the point is that I do not expect anymore to make money with songs. I just write them because I love doing it. And that feels much better instead of discussing with any music-library manager about the next stile he needs. I love doing music I love playing guitar, arranging and all this. As soon as Pono will be online I will put my music on there. The reason is easy, it will meat true listeners again. The 20 year high school kids, which use I-phone buds, devil may care. This generation is lost, they have been raised with illegal downloading. Good luck with fucking MP3 quality. Pono is the only way to show young people what they miss. We all should support Pono!! It is a true chance to show people that MP3 is a true pain. PS: In my guitar classes I still find people showing me a whole band discography on DVD. The only thing I ask: Are you proud to steal the work of someone else. Some of them get it. Some don't. Most of them are not egoists, next lessen they talk with me about it. I point them to use at least Spotify, and soon the Pono-Player. |
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Post by ericn on Sept 10, 2014 19:34:53 GMT -6
I Don't think they are devaluing music, I see this as a band that was once as big as the Beatles struggling to stay relevant without Judgeing the latest singing competition show!
Bono already learned Jagger is much better at managing the money, and he can't save the world. This is his way of staying on the radar without doing the dog and poney show like everybody else. Can't wait for the Edge to write a children's book like Keith Richards.
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