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Post by indiehouse on Aug 9, 2014 22:52:07 GMT -6
How are you guys treating (generally) acoustic guitar?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 22:59:23 GMT -6
Enough compressions to sound pushed, rolling off lows, balancing tone in the low mids and adding top end, as needed. The more of a part it plays, the beefier int he low mids. The less of a part, the thinner I make it.
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Post by gouge on Aug 10, 2014 0:52:21 GMT -6
I use a jolly modified mk012 in Omni with a sytek preamp. I really like that combo. if stereo miking I add a jolly modified nt2a down near the body. compressor is a dbx160sl.
if the guitarist is a butcher then I put the nt2a in Omni at the end of the body and point it parallel to the neck looking at the head. that really smooths out a heavy handed player. then I hit the dbx harder.
room is dry
during mix I use a HPF.
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 10, 2014 5:45:34 GMT -6
Are you cutting any around 1.5k?
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Post by gouge on Aug 10, 2014 7:09:00 GMT -6
I tend to just use the mic. If I don"t like it I change gear somewhere.
I"m not sure you'll get a specific answer that suits you. It could be any number of things that encourage you to cut 1.5khz including your room. Other people may not have the same conditions
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Post by barforama on Aug 10, 2014 7:51:20 GMT -6
This might come in handy in this thread :-)
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Post by svart on Aug 10, 2014 8:51:52 GMT -6
Km184, 1272s, symmetrix 525's. Usually boost a little top, boost a little bite around 2k-3k, sometimes boost a little lows.
Mic placement is key. Too many folks put the mics too far back. Put them closer and you'll need less treatment.
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Post by Ward on Aug 10, 2014 10:36:31 GMT -6
Km184, 1272s, symmetrix 525's. Usually boost a little top, boost a little bite around 2k-3k, sometimes boost a little lows. Mic placement is key. Too many folks put the mics too far back. Put them closer and you'll need less treatment. Really, the old symmetrix 525s from the 90s? I still have a few of them sitting in the 'unused' rack. How do you use a 525 with that combination of the bright 184 with the darkish 1272? |
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Post by jimwilliams on Aug 10, 2014 12:00:25 GMT -6
For solo I use a pair of AKG 414BULS into a High Speed mic preamp. For a part I use an AKG460B into the same setup. Both mics are sans iron. I rarely use compression on acoustic guitar, not very natural sounding to me.
No EQ is ever needed if the guitar and player are in sync.
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Post by svart on Aug 10, 2014 16:19:50 GMT -6
Km184, 1272s, symmetrix 525's. Usually boost a little top, boost a little bite around 2k-3k, sometimes boost a little lows. Mic placement is key. Too many folks put the mics too far back. Put them closer and you'll need less treatment. Really, the old symmetrix 525s from the 90s? I still have a few of them sitting in the 'unused' rack. How do you use a 525 with that combination of the bright 184 with the darkish 1272? I dunno. They work just fine. It all seems to balance out in the end. They seem to take some of the edge off the attack And even out the player without a whole lot of color. I also don't think the 1272 is dark at all. If anything, It's scooped with sparkling highs and tubby lows. Almost the inverse of the 312 sound. (and I was extremely compelled to give you the "well, I put audio into the inputs and get it out of the outputs" kinda answer when you asked how I use them..  ) |
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Post by Ward on Aug 10, 2014 22:44:53 GMT -6
I also don't think the 1272 is dark at all. SNIP tubby lows. (and I was extremely compelled to give you the "well, I put audio into the inputs and get it out of the outputs" kinda answer when you asked how I use them.. ) That's ok... I also withheld the urge to question your judgment/sanity/experience/hearing when it came to the use of the 525 in that chain. LOL!! |
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Post by svart on Aug 11, 2014 7:10:00 GMT -6
I also don't think the 1272 is dark at all. SNIP tubby lows. (and I was extremely compelled to give you the "well, I put audio into the inputs and get it out of the outputs" kinda answer when you asked how I use them.. ) That's ok... I also withheld the urge to question your judgment/sanity/experience/hearing when it came to the use of the 525 in that chain. LOL!! One day I needed some extra compressors and I brought them back out of the closet and tried a few things through them. Guitars (mainly high gain stuff) just seem to work for me through them. I don't find that mine are as destructive as you seem to think they are though. I put the acoustics through it and didn't get offended at the sound, so I used it. They seem to mellow things out pretty well without adding too much. Then again, I'm only really using them around 3dB of GR. Anyway, most of the acoustic stuff I use it on is rock stuff, so it's about getting them to sit in a mix, not be the only instrument. Although, none of the folk singer-songwriters I've recorded have said anything bad about the tone. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 11, 2014 8:20:02 GMT -6
I stick a KM84 in front of my acoustic and play. Don't really need anything else, but lately use a little WA76 on medium attack, fast release > Warm Audio Tone Beast, x73 opamp, clean, steel setting, on medium attack, fast release. That's for very strummy tracks. I haven't tried this on picky acoustic/vocal type tracks yet.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 11, 2014 8:35:10 GMT -6
My 2 cent$
SDC's go for not unless i'm planning on a packed mix where i'm primarily looking for pick attack. If a room is quiet and sounds good, a pair of reasonably distant HQ LDC mics sound more balanced, smoother and more depthful, much more like i'm sitting in front of the player. Close micing with sdc's sounds mehh to me(i don't have KM84's or modded Oktava mk12's ?), it gives worry to unruly dynamics, proximity and forces eq, you shouldn't need to deal with any of this with a great player, mic placement and a little space. Distance=depth.
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Post by svart on Aug 11, 2014 8:45:54 GMT -6
My 2 cent$ SDC's go for not unless i'm planning on a packed mix where i'm primarily looking for pick attack. If a room is quiet and sounds good, a pair of reasonably distant HQ LDC mics sound more balanced, smoother and more depthful, much more like i'm sitting in front of the player. Close micing with sdc's sounds mehh to me(i don't have KM84's or modded Oktava mk12's ?), it gives worry to unruly dynamics, proximity and forces eq, you shouldn't need to deal with any of this with a great player, mic placement and a little space. Distance=depth. I have modded MK012's. They are OK for acoustic, but have the familiar "russian sound" where it's pretty chesty sounding regardless of placement. The top end on them is dark, but still very usable. The KM(1)84 however, is much more plain in the midrange and the top end is a little bright but without any sizzle. My go-to are the KM184, because it's always easier to make brightness become darkness, but not the other way around. Still, I wouldn't hesitate to go back to the MK012's if need be. On a modern Taylor with bright strings, the MK012s might still be the ticket, but with an old Gibson with older bronze strings or some of those new "coated" strings people seem to like (god knows why..) you absolutely need a brighter mic. I used to use the LDCs for acoustic but I was always fighting with the midrange too much with them, as in they gave just too much information to be processed. Sounds strange, but in a dense mix, that's just equal to mud. The SDC seems to keep the mids and lows in check better. |
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Post by mdmitch2 on Aug 11, 2014 9:38:30 GMT -6
Recorded an inexpensive Martin yesterday... Tried several mics and the best combo was mk012 10-12 in from neck/body (cardioid) and a u87 clone over the shoulder. This was for a pop/rock artist. I had him use a light gauge pick for strumming to get that percussive rake sound. The u87 shoulder mic really picked that up nicely.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 11, 2014 9:53:08 GMT -6
One of my favorite acoustic tracks was done with an AKG C-24, (stereo C12) for the acoustic, and a Neumann U67 for vocal, which picked up some guitar sound. This is on Lyle Lovett's "Road to Ensenada".
What did Mark Knopfler use for "The Ragpickers Dream", THAT sound is as good as it gets, to me anyway.
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Post by svart on Aug 11, 2014 9:57:03 GMT -6
One of my favorite acoustic tracks was done with an AKG C-24, (stereo C12) for the acoustic, and a Neumann U67 for vocal, which picked up some guitar sound. This is on Lyle Lovett's "Road to Ensenada". What did Mark Knopfler use for "The Ragpickers Dream", THAT sound is as good as it gets, to me anyway. I've always been interested in how people do that. Every time I've used mics for the guitar and for the vocals at the same time, I get clear phase issues, regardless of mic placement. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 11, 2014 12:11:49 GMT -6
Man, I know what you mean. I was so curious as to how they got that record to sound that way, I wrote engineer/producer Nathaniel Kunkle, and he was kind enough to respond. Here's some of what he said,""It was Conway Studios Black U-67 -> GML mic pre -> GML eq -> GML 8900 series 3 limiter -> tape in. But you must remember that Lyle plays guitar and sings at the same time, so that leakage is a huge component of the vocal sound. The guitar mic then was a stereo C24 in MS, and that contributed to the sound greatly.
It's a mystery, I know..
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Post by Ward on Aug 11, 2014 12:25:11 GMT -6
And the higher the acoustic guitar on a person's body, the greater the bleed between guitar mics and vocal mic and the greater the phase issues!
I understand the engineers went through hell recording Tracy Chapman's first album (Fast Car was the single).
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 11, 2014 17:02:25 GMT -6
but 'dI bet they weren't unhappy when the Grammy's came along though ;-)
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098 
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Post by ericn on Aug 11, 2014 17:09:12 GMT -6
Sony C535p, like the one I loaned Mike Jasper for his giant SDC Acustic Guitar survey, Into what ever pre I think fits. It takes the edge off, and slightly compresses, that's why I have 5!
For Classical Schoeps!
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Post by popmann on Aug 11, 2014 17:48:10 GMT -6
One of my favorite acoustic tracks was done with an AKG C-24, (stereo C12) for the acoustic, and a Neumann U67 for vocal, which picked up some guitar sound. This is on Lyle Lovett's "Road to Ensenada". What did Mark Knopfler use for "The Ragpickers Dream", THAT sound is as good as it gets, to me anyway. I've always been interested in how people do that. Every time I've used mics for the guitar and for the vocals at the same time, I get clear phase issues, regardless of mic placement. Fig8 (or hyper C on newer mics) on the acoustic. Null pointed at the singer's head. Fig8 on the vocal, too--null towards the guitar. There will be some bleed (obviously) but it's not the close sound, which is where the phase issues cause the most issues. This is reason 9987 why I think cardioid only LDCs are useless wastes of money. The only time I use cardioid with an LDC is SOME of the time doing lead vocals. Amp? Fig8 always. Acoustic? HyperC on the 414 (though I still prefer an SDC usually). I'm honestly about mic>preamp with acoustic. Any compression is 100% arrangement/mix context. A little limiting on a dynamic lead'ish part....or a pumpy stereo on a buss of layered "eagles strums"....Sometimes it needs EQ when you are compressing. One of the reasons to NOT....if it's not needed. MIC CHOICE....mic choice....MIC CHOICE....I typically use the sm81 on a nice balanced sounding axe....414eb on honky Larivees and Gibsons. If it's a newer bright Taylor, you might prefer a TLM193 or 170. I do typically need to EQ acoustics recorded by clients (not tracked by me)....not 100% sure if they're just using poor placement or what. I like to put on the headphones and move around the mic. With acoustic, there's a HUGE difference in pick selection and moving around the mic. Dunlop Big Stubbys are the BEST--because they're rounded enough to handle strums...but, firm/thick enough to make the single note fills/riffs stand out and be full bodied. For a straight "eagles strum" I'll use the thinnest celluloid pick I have around--because it's more about the strum than the pitched tone. Source, source, source. |
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Post by swurveman on Aug 11, 2014 19:09:54 GMT -6
I've been using a pair of Schoeps CMC64 mics for songs where the acoustic is the main driver of the song. I've used AT 4050's, Peluso 2247's, SM57's, U87ai's...you name it.
The biggest challenge in my opinion is finding a lively space that's not boomy and doesn't have a lot of reflections.
Slight hijack: If anybody has tips on how to record acoustic guitar using baffles/gobos in a large room, I'd be interested in your thoughts.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 15, 2014 17:51:24 GMT -6
I believe in the ethical treatment of all guitars...
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