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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 31, 2024 19:19:32 GMT -6
Seriously? I’m not hearing this dramatic difference everyone seems to be enjoying. Compression can be hard to hear especially if it’s just an envelope follower. Yet people online are still arguing for pcm peak compressors with no windowed maximum smoothing of the attack, averaging, or limiting the rate of attack/release switching. Any attempt to naively modify the signal based on just pcm samples and not the signal itself generally sounds horrible. There are low distortion dynamic processors that don’t like the Oxford Dynamics, Renaissance Compressor, and FirComp but they cannot compressor the entire audidle bandwidth at single sample rates unlike analog. MDWDRC is also low distortion but can and will misfire when hit with sharp transients at Lowe sample rates. You're not alone. The differences are very much overhyped. Any difference can be mimic'd by adjusting the threshold and the HPF on a plugin. THE thing that makes the G bus stand out is the roundness of the envelope of compression. That's what gives it the thump/bump/punch. If you want more of that, you compress more and add more bottom end into the sidechain, until it pumps. If you don't want it to pump, remove some of the lows from the sidechain until it's working for the program. There is no roundness or punch in the plugins tested in the video. The plugins except for one do not even attempt to emulate the partially halfwave rectifier and the attack/release behavior, letting certain asymmetrical signals partially pass through, slowing ramping to the listed attack, letting no normal peaks go uncompressed, and switching between attack and release with the signal. Low bass content is filtered out in many units. Many units have a side chain filter meant to reduce pumping. The ssl is a remarkable compressor because in the sweet spots for each attack on auto, it doesn’t pump the dynamics of the signal. Short transients are attacked and released quickly with the signal. The secondary attack and release is very slow to even everything out. This is only with functional real ssl made hardware (not just ssl branded), the smarts, and the glue at 8-16x oversampling. The clones are mostly not and will pump. Pumping is undesirable. Just because it turns on and passes audio doesn't mean it is working. If the auto release is not working like on most of the clones, it's a door stop until you get someone to mod, ahem, rebuilt it to function correctly. True, but bias also kicks in when you want to sell hardware because you need the money. I've done that trick to myself more than once 😁. I've done plenty of blind shootouts to make sure all I have invested makes sense, it would be foolish not to. You also have to keep in mind, shootouts are an incomplete picture. You have to spend time working through a particular set up and judge your end results. My only hope for doing hardware vs plug in shootouts is that I provide information for anyone that is interested in trying a piece of hardware. It takes a crazy amount of time and money to go down this road on your own and if I can make that path a little easier for someone else, then I'm happy. I use plug-ins on every mix and I'm not knocking them for what they are. Having said that, I've done these types of shootouts way before I ever put any on YouTube and good hardware is undefeated here. Average hardware is not worth it in my opinion and in those cases a plug-in can definitely be in the ballpark, but great hardware like Retro, Chandler, etc.. a plug-in can't get anywhere close to what those units do. Circuit modeled emulations can never match analog behavior and sound. Is it what it is. The advocates for them will never mix as well as you can with the real things. That is the truth. You can get the job done in the box but with dedicated, purpose built digital tools. Not the cheesy skeuomorphic gui of analog no matter what UAD, Waves, and SSL told you. They were lying. They physically cannot work the same. Compare DMG Trackcomp and Cytomic The Glue on 16x cpu melting oversampling to clean, functional dedicated digital tools. They suck except for the 2500 and Zener models that are pump distortion generators and the Glue is very boring. I mean…maybe. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 31, 2024 19:22:29 GMT -6
The Smart Cl1a appears to be $1375 now due to a price drop. That is a decent price. Considering adding one at that price. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 31, 2024 21:13:10 GMT -6
Cenozoix does a decent SSL.
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Post by sean on Jul 31, 2024 23:08:31 GMT -6
You're not alone. The differences are very much overhyped. Any difference can be mimic'd by adjusting the threshold and the HPF on a plugin. THE thing that makes the G bus stand out is the roundness of the envelope of compression. That's what gives it the thump/bump/punch. If you want more of that, you compress more and add more bottom end into the sidechain, until it pumps. If you don't want it to pump, remove some of the lows from the sidechain until it's working for the program. I don't care if anyone else feels the need to buy a Smart or not...there are no sponsored by $weetater shenanigans going on here LOL. Having said that, you can't adjust any setting on a plug-in to make it do all the Smart does. If you're happily working all ITB, I have nothing against that but the differences between good hardware and plug-ins are consistently under hyped in my opinion. Working all ITB is death by a thousand paper cuts. Some areas are a subtle difference, some drastic, but when you add it all up it's not a subtle difference at all. Surely we've been in this era long enough now that if it didn't make much difference, there would be a long list of mind blowing mixes that have been done by the "A List" mixers that have gone all ITB. Instead, check on your favorite mixer before and after they made the ITB switch and that tells you all you need to know. We no longer use the best tools available in our industry because our industry is in a race to the bottom, not because plug-ins have gotten to the point where they sound like hardware. It's sad. Having this experience today putting my new Louder Than Liftoff Silver Bullet MK II through the paces. The plugin convinced me to buy one. And, as good as the plug in is, it's no contest between the plugin and hardware in real life. Being able to hear them side by side in person is very different from flipping between clips. With the plugin I didn't find the "Mojo A-N" that useable, but on the hardware it does a very obvious (and good) thing. The useable range of the EQ is dramatically different, with the EQ maybe one click would do something good before it got a bit nasty (for my taste) but with the hardware you can push it a little further. While the Aspect Ratio in the plug-in is cool, on the hardware it's a bit of a revelation. So far, very happy with it. As flowery as all that sounds, we are talking about a 5 to 10 percent difference. In reality most probably wouldn't tell. And A Listers going in the box is not because it sounds better but because of necessity. It's not realistic for them to mix analog any more. The budgets aren't there, and the time it takes to create stems on an analog mix for Atmos or because a label insist on them doesn't make it practical either. Heck it's not practical for me to mix analog most of the time because of how much I'm asked to recall something a month later because someone decided they wanted to add or change something, sometimes even after it's been mastered (or is in mastering). It sucks that the actual recording of music in the music business has become so secondary. At least for "major" artist. That's why I find happiness in the middle... |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 1, 2024 3:11:48 GMT -6
I don't care if anyone else feels the need to buy a Smart or not...there are no sponsored by $weetater shenanigans going on here LOL. Having said that, you can't adjust any setting on a plug-in to make it do all the Smart does. If you're happily working all ITB, I have nothing against that but the differences between good hardware and plug-ins are consistently under hyped in my opinion. Working all ITB is death by a thousand paper cuts. Some areas are a subtle difference, some drastic, but when you add it all up it's not a subtle difference at all. Surely we've been in this era long enough now that if it didn't make much difference, there would be a long list of mind blowing mixes that have been done by the "A List" mixers that have gone all ITB. Instead, check on your favorite mixer before and after they made the ITB switch and that tells you all you need to know. We no longer use the best tools available in our industry because our industry is in a race to the bottom, not because plug-ins have gotten to the point where they sound like hardware. It's sad. Having this experience today putting my new Louder Than Liftoff Silver Bullet MK II through the paces. The plugin convinced me to buy one. And, as good as the plug in is, it's no contest between the plugin and hardware in real life. Being able to hear them side by side in person is very different from flipping between clips. With the plugin I didn't find the "Mojo A-N" that useable, but on the hardware it does a very obvious (and good) thing. The useable range of the EQ is dramatically different, with the EQ maybe one click would do something good before it got a bit nasty (for my taste) but with the hardware you can push it a little further. While the Aspect Ratio in the plug-in is cool, on the hardware it's a bit of a revelation. So far, very happy with it. As flowery as all that sounds, we are talking about a 5 to 10 percent difference. In reality most probably wouldn't tell. And A Listers going in the box is not because it sounds better but because of necessity. It's not realistic for them to mix analog any more. The budgets aren't there, and the time it takes to create stems on an analog mix for Atmos or because a label insist on them doesn't make it practical either. Heck it's not practical for me to mix analog most of the time because of how much I'm asked to recall something a month later because someone decided they wanted to add or change something, sometimes even after it's been mastered (or is in mastering). It sucks that the actual recording of music in the music business has become so secondary. At least for "major" artist. That's why I find happiness in the middle... I’ve ended up with racks of hardware because of plug-ins. I’d buy a plugin and think this sounds great - I bet the hardware sounds better. Bought the hardware version and then side by side it becomes obvious that the hardware definitely has the superior sonics and in comparison the plugin version sounds a bit flat and 2D. How someone values that difference is a completely different conversation. I’ve only been able to afford to put hardware on the key elements of my mix and my stereo mix bus. Everything else is handled by software. I value the the improvements hardware makes to the 3D soundscape and width & depth of my mixes. |
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Post by Dan on Aug 1, 2024 11:07:35 GMT -6
I don't care if anyone else feels the need to buy a Smart or not...there are no sponsored by $weetater shenanigans going on here LOL. Having said that, you can't adjust any setting on a plug-in to make it do all the Smart does. If you're happily working all ITB, I have nothing against that but the differences between good hardware and plug-ins are consistently under hyped in my opinion. Working all ITB is death by a thousand paper cuts. Some areas are a subtle difference, some drastic, but when you add it all up it's not a subtle difference at all. Surely we've been in this era long enough now that if it didn't make much difference, there would be a long list of mind blowing mixes that have been done by the "A List" mixers that have gone all ITB. Instead, check on your favorite mixer before and after they made the ITB switch and that tells you all you need to know. We no longer use the best tools available in our industry because our industry is in a race to the bottom, not because plug-ins have gotten to the point where they sound like hardware. It's sad. Having this experience today putting my new Louder Than Liftoff Silver Bullet MK II through the paces. The plugin convinced me to buy one. And, as good as the plug in is, it's no contest between the plugin and hardware in real life. Being able to hear them side by side in person is very different from flipping between clips. With the plugin I didn't find the "Mojo A-N" that useable, but on the hardware it does a very obvious (and good) thing. The useable range of the EQ is dramatically different, with the EQ maybe one click would do something good before it got a bit nasty (for my taste) but with the hardware you can push it a little further. While the Aspect Ratio in the plug-in is cool, on the hardware it's a bit of a revelation. So far, very happy with it. As flowery as all that sounds, we are talking about a 5 to 10 percent difference. In reality most probably wouldn't tell. And A Listers going in the box is not because it sounds better but because of necessity. It's not realistic for them to mix analog any more. The budgets aren't there, and the time it takes to create stems on an analog mix for Atmos or because a label insist on them doesn't make it practical either. Heck it's not practical for me to mix analog most of the time because of how much I'm asked to recall something a month later because someone decided they wanted to add or change something, sometimes even after it's been mastered (or is in mastering). It sucks that the actual recording of music in the music business has become so secondary. At least for "major" artist. That's why I find happiness in the middle... The plugin runs a non-linear transfer curve into what seems like a hard clipper. Very Sonimus like. It sounds good but SDRR2 Desk felt more like good analog Not meant to be a distortion device to me but of course the desk doesn’t really change the sound or have a crazy transfer curve. The only weird saturation in that mode is if you set the crosstalk to high. II doubt silver bullet plug models every non-linear property of the circuit and probably breaks the circuit into chunks which is less accurate. The most realistic analog emulations I’ve heard are probably guitar amps, where circuit models are essential to their full functionality and how they don’t sound like crap is black magic of stacked insane non-linearities somehow masking things (how the high gain analog amps like soldanos, 5150s, and engls work is also nuts) and Cytomic the Scream, a guitar pedal where the cpu to run it costs more than the pedal. Silver Bullet A is pretty much a brighter version of Decapitator A even though they model totally different pieces of hardware. That upwards transfer curve is pretty cool. You can use it like a cleaner inflator. Just verses decapitator, You just have a very small sweet spot that’s hard to mix into because it hard clips so soon. Hitmaker has a wider sweet spot but is grittier and I don’t think it sounds as good. N was warm but felt like just another Neve plug. I could use the Softube British Class A or tweak tube in SDRR2. I don’t own the plugin because I forgot to buy it when it was on sale and used my 29.99 coupon on the much crazier Neold Wunderlich which was built to be a plugin but of course what they built was apparently extremely hifi, more so than the Silver Bullet, unless pushed close to breakup so they had to add an adjustable low pass filter and saturation that’s set by default way too low so the lofi guys can have fun. Digital replaced clean processors. The problem is people are not using functional or clean processors; they’re using total junk made from old textbook code that was never functional or functional over a very small portion of their settings and signal: eqs that cramp horribly and sound metallic and phasey with anything over 5 kHz, dynamics processors that alias horribly when doing anything that’s not a glorified fader ride because they cannot detect the signal, only the pcm samples it passes through, limiters that pump and clip the signal, causing many peaks to be louder from the Gibbs effect if they can even detect the peaks and aren’t just downwards bit crushers. Yes that’s what pcm limiters are but hey they’re advertised as clean because they don’t distort with test tones by ramping down signal in advance. So… ramped downward bit crushing mixed with instant bit crushing and often intentional distortion to clip or saturate the peaks after. It’s disgusting. |
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