|
|
Post by thehightenor on Jul 31, 2024 4:47:36 GMT -6
The Smart wipes the floor IMO. The plugs sound smeared and veiled in all frequencies, and lack punch and low mid detail. Another great seawell video. Saved me from possibly buying more average plug ins. Plugin compression’s weakness ime is processing stereo programme material. This is where hardware show it’s sonic advantage in the way its adds genuine depth of field, width and size. The Smart CL1A is great, I’m also a fan on the RMS 755 which sounds even bigger to my ears and the ultimate is the Vertigo VSC-3 but that unit is way out of my budget! |
|
|
|
Post by sean on Jul 31, 2024 6:31:12 GMT -6
seawell’s video just confirms that if the Louder Than Liftoff Hitmaker Comp doesn’t do it for me the C1LA is my next purchase. The way the vocal and snare sits in track is pretty obvious to me. The SSL Native sounded like it put an expander on the snare… Is that the module for the Silver Bullet? Yes: louderthanliftoff.com/products/hitmaker-comp-mojo-moduleBecause I’m an insane person I’ll probably get a Smart CL1A anyway to A/B. I’m curious how difficult/easy gain staging will be with the Silver Bullet since there are no meters |
|
|
|
Post by Mister Chase on Jul 31, 2024 8:16:28 GMT -6
The Smart wipes the floor IMO. The plugs sound smeared and veiled in all frequencies, and lack punch and low mid detail. Another great seawell video. Saved me from possibly buying more average plug ins. Sadly this reminds me that individual tracks of my entire mixes are processed this way ITB. If I had hardware for each channel I wonder how much difference it would make. Never been able to compare. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 31, 2024 8:54:33 GMT -6
The Smart wipes the floor IMO. The plugs sound smeared and veiled in all frequencies, and lack punch and low mid detail. Another great seawell video. Saved me from possibly buying more average plug ins. Seriously? I’m not hearing this dramatic difference everyone seems to be enjoying. |
|
|
|
Post by Mister Chase on Jul 31, 2024 9:08:15 GMT -6
The Smart wipes the floor IMO. The plugs sound smeared and veiled in all frequencies, and lack punch and low mid detail. Another great seawell video. Saved me from possibly buying more average plug ins. Seriously? I’m not hearing this dramatic difference everyone seems to be enjoying. I dunno if I can say it's as extreme as that, but I hear it. I'm thinking I need a Smart now. It's got a nice sound and action that is different to my AS bus comp. |
|
|
|
Post by svart on Jul 31, 2024 9:40:53 GMT -6
The Smart wipes the floor IMO. The plugs sound smeared and veiled in all frequencies, and lack punch and low mid detail. Another great seawell video. Saved me from possibly buying more average plug ins. Seriously? I’m not hearing this dramatic difference everyone seems to be enjoying. You're not alone. The differences are very much overhyped. Any difference can be mimic'd by adjusting the threshold and the HPF on a plugin. THE thing that makes the G bus stand out is the roundness of the envelope of compression. That's what gives it the thump/bump/punch. If you want more of that, you compress more and add more bottom end into the sidechain, until it pumps. If you don't want it to pump, remove some of the lows from the sidechain until it's working for the program. |
|
|
|
Post by seawell on Jul 31, 2024 9:52:02 GMT -6
Seriously? I’m not hearing this dramatic difference everyone seems to be enjoying. You're not alone. The differences are very much overhyped. Any difference can be mimic'd by adjusting the threshold and the HPF on a plugin. THE thing that makes the G bus stand out is the roundness of the envelope of compression. That's what gives it the thump/bump/punch. If you want more of that, you compress more and add more bottom end into the sidechain, until it pumps. If you don't want it to pump, remove some of the lows from the sidechain until it's working for the program. I don't care if anyone else feels the need to buy a Smart or not...there are no sponsored by $weetater shenanigans going on here LOL. Having said that, you can't adjust any setting on a plug-in to make it do all the Smart does. If you're happily working all ITB, I have nothing against that but the differences between good hardware and plug-ins are consistently under hyped in my opinion. Working all ITB is death by a thousand paper cuts. Some areas are a subtle difference, some drastic, but when you add it all up it's not a subtle difference at all. Surely we've been in this era long enough now that if it didn't make much difference, there would be a long list of mind blowing mixes that have been done by the "A List" mixers that have gone all ITB. Instead, check on your favorite mixer before and after they made the ITB switch and that tells you all you need to know. We no longer use the best tools available in our industry because our industry is in a race to the bottom, not because plug-ins have gotten to the point where they sound like hardware. It's sad. |
|
|
|
Post by craigmorris74 on Jul 31, 2024 10:11:51 GMT -6
But why does the room go silent when there’s a blind shootout of these comps? Or these results don’t indicate the huge superiority of HW compressors?
Most of the guys who are switching to ITB that you hear about did their best work years ago, far before switching to ITB.
There are differences, but the placebo effect is huge when you know which is HW and which is SW.
|
|
|
|
Post by seawell on Jul 31, 2024 10:20:14 GMT -6
But why does the room go silent when there’s a blind shootout of these comps? Or these results don’t indicate the huge superiority of HW compressors? Most of the guys who are switching to ITB that you hear about did their best work years ago, far before switching to ITB. There are differences, but the placebo effect is huge when you know which is HW and which is SW. True, but bias also kicks in when you want to sell hardware because you need the money. I've done that trick to myself more than once 😁. I've done plenty of blind shootouts to make sure all I have invested makes sense, it would be foolish not to. You also have to keep in mind, shootouts are an incomplete picture. You have to spend time working through a particular set up and judge your end results. My only hope for doing hardware vs plug in shootouts is that I provide information for anyone that is interested in trying a piece of hardware. It takes a crazy amount of time and money to go down this road on your own and if I can make that path a little easier for someone else, then I'm happy. I use plug-ins on every mix and I'm not knocking them for what they are. Having said that, I've done these types of shootouts way before I ever put any on YouTube and good hardware is undefeated here. Average hardware is not worth it in my opinion and in those cases a plug-in can definitely be in the ballpark, but great hardware like Retro, Chandler, etc.. a plug-in can't get anywhere close to what those units do. |
|
|
|
Post by craigmorris74 on Jul 31, 2024 10:28:08 GMT -6
But why does the room go silent when there’s a blind shootout of these comps? Or these results don’t indicate the huge superiority of HW compressors? Most of the guys who are switching to ITB that you hear about did their best work years ago, far before switching to ITB. There are differences, but the placebo effect is huge when you know which is HW and which is SW. True, but bias also kicks in when you want to sell hardware because you need the money. I've done that trick to myself more than once 😁. I've done plenty of blind shootouts to make sure all I have invested makes sense, it would be foolish not to. You also have to keep in mind, shootouts are an incomplete picture. You have to spend time working through a particular set up and judge your end results. My only hope for doing hardware vs plug in shootouts is that I provide information for anyone that is interested in trying a piece of hardware. It takes a crazy amount of time and money to go down this road on your own and if I can make that path a little easier for someone else, then I'm happy. I mostly agree. I run everything through a two bus chain. But my problem is with the HW “destroys” or “wipes the floor” against software. Or the software is “broken”. Your shootouts are great, BTW! One fun idea for a shootout could be a reverse of the typical video: get the mix rocking with a software comp, and then match the hardware to it. |
|
|
|
Post by seawell on Jul 31, 2024 10:41:49 GMT -6
True, but bias also kicks in when you want to sell hardware because you need the money. I've done that trick to myself more than once 😁. I've done plenty of blind shootouts to make sure all I have invested makes sense, it would be foolish not to. You also have to keep in mind, shootouts are an incomplete picture. You have to spend time working through a particular set up and judge your end results. My only hope for doing hardware vs plug in shootouts is that I provide information for anyone that is interested in trying a piece of hardware. It takes a crazy amount of time and money to go down this road on your own and if I can make that path a little easier for someone else, then I'm happy. I mostly agree. I run everything through a two bus chain. But my problem is with the HW “destroys” or “wipes the floor” against software. Or the software is “broken”. Your shootouts are great, BTW! One fun idea for a shootout could be a reverse of the typical video: get the mix rocking with a software comp, and then match the hardware to it. Gotcha, well just for the record I didn't say any of those things, which I know you aren't insinuating, so no worries! I don't have the technical expertise to understand why a plug-in may or may not sound good, I just have to rely on the ancient technology called ears haha. This particular song was originally mixed through the Focusrite Red 3 so I did that intentionally to try and level the playing field between the hardware and plug-ins a bit. I have done(not in a YouTube video) what you mentioned about swapping out a mix that was done through a plug-in compressor for the Smart. I'll see if I can put that together in a video. I did something along those lines with the Bluey hardware vs Waves CLA. I took all the Waves CLA presets and matched those settings on the hardware. Anyway, I don't want to make anyone feel less than or in any way inferior if they aren't using hardware. That would be the last thing I'd ever want to do. I just hate it for anyone that never gives it a try as I find it so enjoyable from a workflow stand point and especially from an end results stand point. I am very thankful that we live in a time where if you're just starting out, or if for any other reason you find yourself all ITB, you can reach a quality level that wasn't even imaginable when I got started. I'm just still chasing sounds in my head that I've yet to achieve and hardware helps me inch closer with each mix. |
|
|
|
Post by svart on Jul 31, 2024 10:49:51 GMT -6
You're not alone. The differences are very much overhyped. Any difference can be mimic'd by adjusting the threshold and the HPF on a plugin. THE thing that makes the G bus stand out is the roundness of the envelope of compression. That's what gives it the thump/bump/punch. If you want more of that, you compress more and add more bottom end into the sidechain, until it pumps. If you don't want it to pump, remove some of the lows from the sidechain until it's working for the program. I don't care if anyone else feels the need to buy a Smart or not...there are no sponsored by $weetater shenanigans going on here LOL. Having said that, you can't adjust any setting on a plug-in to make it do all the Smart does. If you're happily working all ITB, I have nothing against that but the differences between good hardware and plug-ins are consistently under hyped in my opinion. Working all ITB is death by a thousand paper cuts. Some areas are a subtle difference, some drastic, but when you add it all up it's not a subtle difference at all. Surely we've been in this era long enough now that if it didn't make much difference, there would be a long list of mind blowing mixes that have been done by the "A List" mixers that have gone all ITB. Instead, check on your favorite mixer before and after they made the ITB switch and that tells you all you need to know. We no longer use the best tools available in our industry because our industry is in a race to the bottom, not because plug-ins have gotten to the point where they sound like hardware. It's sad. I've had 5 different hardware SSL style compressors. I still have 2 of them. I still choose the ITB because it still sounds like the hardware enough that I make it work. |
|
|
|
Post by seawell on Jul 31, 2024 10:56:56 GMT -6
I don't care if anyone else feels the need to buy a Smart or not...there are no sponsored by $weetater shenanigans going on here LOL. Having said that, you can't adjust any setting on a plug-in to make it do all the Smart does. If you're happily working all ITB, I have nothing against that but the differences between good hardware and plug-ins are consistently under hyped in my opinion. Working all ITB is death by a thousand paper cuts. Some areas are a subtle difference, some drastic, but when you add it all up it's not a subtle difference at all. Surely we've been in this era long enough now that if it didn't make much difference, there would be a long list of mind blowing mixes that have been done by the "A List" mixers that have gone all ITB. Instead, check on your favorite mixer before and after they made the ITB switch and that tells you all you need to know. We no longer use the best tools available in our industry because our industry is in a race to the bottom, not because plug-ins have gotten to the point where they sound like hardware. It's sad. I've had 5 different hardware SSL style compressors. I still have 2 of them. I still choose the ITB because it still sounds like the hardware enough that I make it work. Not naming names, but with some of the SSL clones, I completely agree with you. Not the Smart though. It's another league from the usual SSL clones. |
|
|
|
Post by ab101 on Jul 31, 2024 11:35:40 GMT -6
The smart c2 has a great widening effect when unlinked. Does the CL1a unit do that?
|
|
|
|
Post by seawell on Jul 31, 2024 11:37:39 GMT -6
The smart c2 has a great widening effect when unlinked. Does the CL1a unit do that? It does. |
|
|
|
Post by Mister Chase on Jul 31, 2024 12:15:15 GMT -6
Downloaded the files. I think I'll ABX myself here.
|
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 31, 2024 13:15:04 GMT -6
Why don’t we have some software and hardware level matched blind samples and see if people can put their money where their mouth is?
I’m not digging anyone - hell, I’m using a lot of hardware…but I’m not totally sure I could pick it out side by side without knowing the units.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mister Chase on Jul 31, 2024 13:39:42 GMT -6
Why don’t we have some software and hardware level matched blind samples and see if people can put their money where their mouth is? I’m not digging anyone - hell, I’m using a lot of hardware…but I’m not totally sure I could pick it out side by side without knowing the units. I need to do more but it takes a while to get through 11 files blind over and over. I picked the Smart out the first time then the FG Grey the second. Most of my notes on the other files blind were "muddy, narrow, dull" etc. So really most of them I don't like so much. The Glue is good, FG Grey I like, and the Smart. So, then I decided I wanted to hear what my Tweezers sounded like on the mix and thought that would be more fun. I'll try more later. Theres something about the FG Grey I kind of like... Meanwhile - Tweezers on the same mix: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zlseiaeh1cxpjl31uungd/Kush-Tweezers.wav?rlkey=74byo3awavointr6hqet3z60n&st=o7437f6g&dl=0 |
|
|
|
Post by craigmorris74 on Jul 31, 2024 13:42:52 GMT -6
Why don’t we have some software and hardware level matched blind samples and see if people can put their money where their mouth is? I’m not digging anyone - hell, I’m using a lot of hardware…but I’m not totally sure I could pick it out side by side without knowing the units. And contestants shouldn’t know which is which before the blind test. |
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Jul 31, 2024 15:41:52 GMT -6
The Smart wipes the floor IMO. The plugs sound smeared and veiled in all frequencies, and lack punch and low mid detail. Another great seawell video. Saved me from possibly buying more average plug ins. Seriously? I’m not hearing this dramatic difference everyone seems to be enjoying. I only listened once….and did it by jumping around….but my first reaction was that I thought the plugs sounded cleaner……the smart and the orig mix sounded similar sonically (not talking about compression ..more eq)….and the plugs sort of cleaned up the mix…… What do I know ? 🤓 cheers Wiz |
|
|
|
Post by ab101 on Jul 31, 2024 16:00:31 GMT -6
The Smart Cl1a appears to be $1375 now due to a price drop. That is a decent price.
|
|
|
|
Post by seawell on Jul 31, 2024 16:04:43 GMT -6
Why don’t we have some software and hardware level matched blind samples and see if people can put their money where their mouth is? I’m not digging anyone - hell, I’m using a lot of hardware…but I’m not totally sure I could pick it out side by side without knowing the units. I will put something together fairly soon..ish. |
|
|
|
Post by craigmorris74 on Jul 31, 2024 16:18:25 GMT -6
I ran the song through my hardware comp (not a Smart) just for comparison. Interested to hear thoughts.
Edit: Need to turn my file up 3dB
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Jul 31, 2024 17:25:09 GMT -6
The Smart wipes the floor IMO. The plugs sound smeared and veiled in all frequencies, and lack punch and low mid detail. Another great seawell video. Saved me from possibly buying more average plug ins. Plugin compression’s weakness ime is processing stereo programme material. This is where hardware show it’s sonic advantage in the way its adds genuine depth of field, width and size. The Smart CL1A is great, I’m also a fan on the RMS 755 which sounds even bigger to my ears and the ultimate is the Vertigo VSC-3 but that unit is way out of my budget! Not really if you don’t use a circuit model or use the glue at 16x over sampling. Even then, there are much more advanced or colored things than an ssl bus itb and if someone wants to buy just one thing with a lot of distortion or color, the first recommendation of most people is mjuc with a lot to sounds and ability to radically change the behavior of each compressor with a single click. New clean hardware is mostly dying. The ersatz of the past outsells them. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Jul 31, 2024 17:55:46 GMT -6
The Smart wipes the floor IMO. The plugs sound smeared and veiled in all frequencies, and lack punch and low mid detail. Another great seawell video. Saved me from possibly buying more average plug ins. Seriously? I’m not hearing this dramatic difference everyone seems to be enjoying. Compression can be hard to hear especially if it’s just an envelope follower. Yet people online are still arguing for pcm peak compressors with no windowed maximum smoothing of the attack, averaging, or limiting the rate of attack/release switching. Any attempt to naively modify the signal based on just pcm samples and not the signal itself generally sounds horrible. There are low distortion dynamic processors that don’t like the Oxford Dynamics, Renaissance Compressor, and FirComp but they cannot compressor the entire audidle bandwidth at single sample rates unlike analog. MDWDRC is also low distortion but can and will misfire when hit with sharp transients at Lowe sample rates. Seriously? I’m not hearing this dramatic difference everyone seems to be enjoying. You're not alone. The differences are very much overhyped. Any difference can be mimic'd by adjusting the threshold and the HPF on a plugin. THE thing that makes the G bus stand out is the roundness of the envelope of compression. That's what gives it the thump/bump/punch. If you want more of that, you compress more and add more bottom end into the sidechain, until it pumps. If you don't want it to pump, remove some of the lows from the sidechain until it's working for the program. There is no roundness or punch in the plugins tested in the video. The plugins except for one do not even attempt to emulate the partially halfwave rectifier and the attack/release behavior, letting certain asymmetrical signals partially pass through, slowing ramping to the listed attack, letting no normal peaks go uncompressed, and switching between attack and release with the signal. Low bass content is filtered out in many units. Many units have a side chain filter meant to reduce pumping. The ssl is a remarkable compressor because in the sweet spots for each attack on auto, it doesn’t pump the dynamics of the signal. Short transients are attacked and released quickly with the signal. The secondary attack and release is very slow to even everything out. This is only with functional real ssl made hardware (not just ssl branded), the smarts, and the glue at 8-16x oversampling. The clones are mostly not and will pump. Pumping is undesirable. Just because it turns on and passes audio doesn't mean it is working. If the auto release is not working like on most of the clones, it's a door stop until you get someone to mod, ahem, rebuilt it to function correctly. But why does the room go silent when there’s a blind shootout of these comps? Or these results don’t indicate the huge superiority of HW compressors? Most of the guys who are switching to ITB that you hear about did their best work years ago, far before switching to ITB. There are differences, but the placebo effect is huge when you know which is HW and which is SW. True, but bias also kicks in when you want to sell hardware because you need the money. I've done that trick to myself more than once 😁. I've done plenty of blind shootouts to make sure all I have invested makes sense, it would be foolish not to. You also have to keep in mind, shootouts are an incomplete picture. You have to spend time working through a particular set up and judge your end results. My only hope for doing hardware vs plug in shootouts is that I provide information for anyone that is interested in trying a piece of hardware. It takes a crazy amount of time and money to go down this road on your own and if I can make that path a little easier for someone else, then I'm happy. I use plug-ins on every mix and I'm not knocking them for what they are. Having said that, I've done these types of shootouts way before I ever put any on YouTube and good hardware is undefeated here. Average hardware is not worth it in my opinion and in those cases a plug-in can definitely be in the ballpark, but great hardware like Retro, Chandler, etc.. a plug-in can't get anywhere close to what those units do. Circuit modeled emulations can never match analog behavior and sound. Is it what it is. The advocates for them will never mix as well as you can with the real things. That is the truth. You can get the job done in the box but with dedicated, purpose built digital tools. Not the cheesy skeuomorphic gui of analog no matter what UAD, Waves, and SSL told you. They were lying. They physically cannot work the same. Compare DMG Trackcomp and Cytomic The Glue on 16x cpu melting oversampling to clean, functional dedicated digital tools. They suck except for the 2500 and Zener models that are pump distortion generators and the Glue is very boring. |
|
