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Post by rowmat on Jul 30, 2024 19:23:07 GMT -6
You do the same thing that you do to an intelligent being that you want to radicalize. You feed it BS. Destroy it by feeding it garbage. I will resolve to upload as much musical nonsense as possible to ruin the algorithm. Ruining the algorithm…
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Post by ml on Jul 30, 2024 20:06:14 GMT -6
Imagine if the rise of AI music inspires a wave of musicians to return to purely analog workflows. No plugins, no digital shortcuts, just raw talent captured on tape. Now that would make a real statement. Will the end user really care? Doubt it. But there seems to be a desire for analog in a digital world. The kids seem to like mechanical things like film cameras, mechanical watches, records, and vintage tech because they offer a tangible, authentic experience that stands out in our increasingly virtual world. That's my prediction. And the food analogy is a good one. The rise of fake foods in the 70's, 80's, 90's spurred the rise of the organic food movement, the resurgence of the home garden/farmer's market movement, and the farm-to-table restaurant movement. People still eat processed food, but they know it's processed food just by the taste (took a generation to learn and care) and they choose when they want real food. I think that is the closest analogy for music. AI the aural equivalent of franken-foods. Yes, it looks like a potato chip. It smells like a potato chip. It kind of tastes like one. But then when you have a basket of deep fried potato chips straight out of the lard fryer you realize... THAT'S a potato chip. So you still eat Lays when it's dropped on your lap, but you know what a real chip tastes like. People will consume AI created music. But we'll learn what the difference is and it will be kind of looked down on as a cheap and unhealthy option (to stretch the metaphor). Problem is that could take 20 or 30 years for that arc to complete. Another 10 years of advancement, and then 10 years to figure out we don't like it, and then 10 years for the replacement (the organic music movement let's call it) to re-take the market. Hey, at that pace I'll only be 70! Just in time to be the sage old mentor for the organic music hipsters. We have seen glimpses of it. IMO the best viral videos are the organic ones. They resonate more when they don’t feel staged or fake. I think a lot of that is interpreted by us humans in complex ways that AI may not learn for a while. Eye movements, body language, etc. we can sense when something feels real. For music, take Oliver Anthony’s viral song, for example. Basically a one-take performance with no gimmicks. A regular dude with a story to tell.
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 30, 2024 20:56:48 GMT -6
Bring back the Edison wax cylinder! Actually a band released an album on an Edison wax cylinder about ten years ago. I don’t think they broke any sales records though. One of our clients launched his album initially exclusively on cassette only. His reasoning was because he does “stupid shit”. “…The kids that seem to like mechanical things like film cameras, mechanical watches, records, and vintage tech…” are mostly inspired by TikTok, Instagram etc. because of the coolness factor and hipster ‘street cred’ they receive in the form of likes. So it’s ultimately social media that is influencing them. Fujifilm’s X100V retro designed digital camera went viral after some TikTok influencer gushed over it and it instantly became unobtanium due to the demand with backorders for new cameras blowing out to more than six months and second hand cameras selling for nearly double the retail price on eBay. The new model X100VI automatically went into backorder status since its release with ETA’s of 6 months to 1 year. Those who managed to get hold of an X100 predominantly posted photos of the just the camera itself or selfies with it to social media rather than photos they actually took using the camera. Think of people buying vinyl who don’t have a turntable and then posting selfies of themselves with the album. Same thing. Pentax recently released a half frame film camera targeting the Insta/TikTok crowd. Rollei are about to also release a 35mm compact film camera and Leica reissued their M6 a few years ago. Whether this becomes a substantial, sustainable ‘everything is old is new again’ remains to be seen but the market is likely to be pretty small overall in comparison to the ‘virtual’ one. But the NUMBER ONE driver behind most people’s purchasing decisions today IS social media. That’s why data is the most valuable commodity to big tech and corporations and that can be used to almost instantaneously shift people’s decision making on a dime. So the question is how do ‘we’ as a group go about influencing our prospective clients to use our services rather than some AI algorithm? That’s the question. What’s the answer? You do the same thing that you do to an intelligent being that you want to radicalize. You feed it BS. Destroy it by feeding it garbage. I will resolve to upload as much musical nonsense as possible to ruin the algorithm. I think drbill 's mention earlier of the issues with Meta are a perfect case in point of this👍🏽
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Post by ragan on Jul 30, 2024 21:09:14 GMT -6
It’s like the old adage about disinformation campaigns…the goal isn’t to get you to believe some specific false thing, the goal is to get you to not believe anything.
Or, in Steve Bannon’s infamous words…”flood the zone with shit”.
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Post by viciousbliss on Jul 31, 2024 4:39:22 GMT -6
A few weeks ago I remembered that I didn't previously mention AI chess programs defeating the world champion as far back as 1997. Deep Blue it was called. Even though these AI programs have always won based on what I just read, we still have a very vibrant chess community with huge tournaments. The AI could think way more moves ahead of time than these world champs. While I need to do more reading, it seems to me that people don't find chess to be a pointless pursuit despite the fact that they'll never defeat the AI programs. At least not until they augment their brains with AI themselves. Maybe there's still some money in it today?
My view of the music situation is that so many other emerging technologies will radically increase the quality of life and decrease costs that we won't really need much money. I still think we'll see UBI. Devaluing music was the first shoe to drop with the Internet. Never did I imagine that so many people would behave like greedy animals and just start downloading everything for free. Especially when it was 128 mp3s. It's something that started to decimate civility in society. This feral quality has continued to spread throughout society the more the Internet gives people the opportunity to behave that way.
I've thought of what the banks will do to entice people to not default on their mortgages left and right once 3d printed houses and other new things become the norm. Same with car loans once Waymo rideshares and similar take over. They'll have to offer people the opportunity to restructure into way lower payments, forgive some of the loans, all kinds of stuff. There's going to be a big transition. No need for food scarcity either. Perfect lab-grown meat and other innovations. Beyond that, you could see new things that are just pure and don't have anything the body can't use.
Trying to go backwards is just futile and not possible. AI is going to be automating a lot more than music jobs. Music is going to have a new role. It served a bigger role back when the average person had no voice. A lot of it was just capturing the time it was made in and used by people to cope with living in that time period. If Chess is not obsolete, music is probably safe to some degree. It's just a question of it people will want to bother with it once new options like full-immersion VR start popping up.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 31, 2024 5:06:49 GMT -6
A few weeks ago I remembered that I didn't previously mention AI chess programs defeating the world champion as far back as 1997. Deep Blue it was called. Even though these AI programs have always won based on what I just read, we still have a very vibrant chess community with huge tournaments. The AI could think way more moves ahead of time than these world champs. While I need to do more reading, it seems to me that people don't find chess to be a pointless pursuit despite the fact that they'll never defeat the AI programs. At least not until they augment their brains with AI themselves. Maybe there's still some money in it today? My view of the music situation is that so many other emerging technologies will radically increase the quality of life and decrease costs that we won't really need much money. I still think we'll see UBI. Devaluing music was the first shoe to drop with the Internet. Never did I imagine that so many people would behave like greedy animals and just start downloading everything for free. Especially when it was 128 mp3s. It's something that started to decimate civility in society. This feral quality has continued to spread throughout society the more the Internet gives people the opportunity to behave that way. I've thought of what the banks will do to entice people to not default on their mortgages left and right once 3d printed houses and other new things become the norm. Same with car loans once Waymo rideshares and similar take over. They'll have to offer people the opportunity to restructure into way lower payments, forgive some of the loans, all kinds of stuff. There's going to be a big transition. No need for food scarcity either. Perfect lab-grown meat and other innovations. Beyond that, you could see new things that are just pure and don't have anything the body can't use. Trying to go backwards is just futile and not possible. AI is going to be automating a lot more than music jobs. Music is going to have a new role. It served a bigger role back when the average person had no voice. A lot of it was just capturing the time it was made in and used by people to cope with living in that time period. If Chess is not obsolete, music is probably safe to some degree. It's just a question of it people will want to bother with it once new options like full-immersion VR start popping up. Chess is safe because it’s fun and pleasure to actually …. play chess.
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Post by iamasound on Jul 31, 2024 6:41:46 GMT -6
I’m hearing from some that the advent of AI is nothing particularly new and every type of profession/work has changed with the introduction of new technology and those who don’t adapt will disappear and can only have themselves to blame. While that’s been fundamentally true to some extent this isn’t analogous to the blacksmith worrying about the introduction of the Model T Ford. If it was one could argue that the blacksmith needs to get with the program and start repairing/selling tires. This is about the introduction of teleportation. No horseshoes OR tires required! I'm not convinced that the blacksmith analogy works for creative song composition. Horses as a mode of transportation gave way to the blacksmith as salesperson, went from one who actually made something to a person that doesn't. There was and is an art and a craft to manipulating the steel to seam to the idea of form following function, the salesperson only manipulating a person to see it his/her way and to sell a product, though which is a craft unto itself in which one must cannive to do so. Writing novel music, throwing artful pots or painting a masterpiece is not low tech and cannot and should not be replaced by artifical means. Just because a group codes for machine learning and can sell the idea that the masses can be themselves creative producers by brilliantly prompting a certain software program to crunch numbers and spit out a collage of previous works with no actual relationship to lived experience is an unfortunate reality and one which will in mostly decimate the recording industry to the fewer and fewer professionals than even in this now most limited incarnation. Just imagine when they take all the sonic signatures of the collective works of say Brian Wilson or Mutt Lange as well as all the great producers, the songs of every great artist you can think of and created algorithms that would write, use the digitized A list musicians, mix, master and even automatically create cover artwork and post the results. It is happening as we speak. The end is nigh!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 31, 2024 13:33:17 GMT -6
It’s like the old adage about disinformation campaigns…the goal isn’t to get you to believe some specific false thing, the goal is to get you to not believe anything. Or, in Steve Bannon’s infamous words…”flood the zone with shit”. Since you said Steve Bannon, now I can say, “just like Kamala,” right?
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Post by ragan on Jul 31, 2024 14:24:24 GMT -6
It’s like the old adage about disinformation campaigns…the goal isn’t to get you to believe some specific false thing, the goal is to get you to not believe anything. Or, in Steve Bannon’s infamous words…”flood the zone with shit”. Since you said Steve Bannon, now I can say, “just like Kamala,” right? I’m just referencing something Bannon has talked about at length, and is very proud of. Not really meaning to put my stamp on it; I’m mentioning it in the context of the difficult information environment all of us exist in. It’s a GD mess out there. Every one of us trying to navigate it has my sympathy.
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Post by rowmat on Jul 31, 2024 16:53:22 GMT -6
Don’t worry AI is working on an October surprise!
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Post by chessparov on Jul 31, 2024 18:58:36 GMT -6
George Benson never promotes a Pawn to a Queen. He wants you to... Give him the Knight!* Chris *Warning: Chessparov knows scores of bad chess jokes.
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Post by rowmat on Jul 31, 2024 19:03:33 GMT -6
George Benson never promotes a Pawn to a Queen. He wants you to... Give him the Knight!* Chris *Warning: Chessparov knows scores of bad chess jokes.
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Post by bgrotto on Aug 1, 2024 23:04:44 GMT -6
Funny update: I just got invited to speak at an event that is sponsored by Suno AI.
WTF.
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Post by the other mark williams on Aug 2, 2024 0:14:11 GMT -6
Funny update: I just got invited to speak at an event that is sponsored by Suno AI. WTF. This might be my favorite post of the whole thread. though that Dr. Pepper song that Ragan posted is still hooked in my brain.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 2, 2024 1:07:45 GMT -6
What's next for the next Olympics? Suno Wrestling?
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Post by wiz on Aug 2, 2024 2:06:08 GMT -6
Funny update: I just got invited to speak at an event that is sponsored by Suno AI. WTF. “Hi …. I am bgrotto ….thanks for inviting me to speak here today…..(raises fist in the air) F&;$/K A.I. !!!!!!!!!” Gently places mic on floor exits stage left
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Post by iamasound on Aug 2, 2024 4:47:30 GMT -6
I wasn't implying that those who sell pro audio are conniving, but rather car salesmen!
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Post by kulturekop on Aug 2, 2024 7:00:13 GMT -6
I just recently asked udio to create a Joe Satrani style ballad instrumental and the results were dreadful. The composition was poor and all over the place but It really struggles with getting a solo guitar to sound realistic. I can't see how they will achieve the subtle nuances required.
I guess this highlights what it's not been trained on.
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Post by drbill on Aug 2, 2024 9:00:18 GMT -6
Funny update: I just got invited to speak at an event that is sponsored by Suno AI. WTF. I'd take my phone with me, think what I wanted to say, speak it into your chatGPT app, and then read it back verbatim. And work your way through your talk like that. Get to the end, and ask how everyone liked it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 2, 2024 9:06:28 GMT -6
I just recently asked udio to create a Joe Satrani style ballad instrumental and the results were dreadful. The composition was poor and all over the place but It really struggles with getting a solo guitar to sound realistic. I can't see how they will achieve the subtle nuances required. I guess this highlights what it's not been trained on. The other day, I thought I’d be funny and reply to someone with a prog rock song…like Yes, Genesis, et al…Holy crap the results were terrible. It was like Heaven metal, German, System of The Down type stuff. A friend was saying he thought this same AI music creation thing was getting worse as it starts training on itself. And I swear when we first started talking about all this earlier this year, the results were actually much better.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 2, 2024 9:25:29 GMT -6
Much like the musical evolution of Taylor Swift. Or Hannah Montana becomes Smiley Cyrus. Homer's* Odyssey is Drivng Miss Daisy in comparison. Chris *From that old Greek guy Eric. NOT Homer Simpson.
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 2, 2024 10:54:04 GMT -6
I just recently asked udio to create a Joe Satrani style ballad instrumental and the results were dreadful. The composition was poor and all over the place but It really struggles with getting a solo guitar to sound realistic. I can't see how they will achieve the subtle nuances required. I guess this highlights what it's not been trained on. The other day, I thought I’d be funny and reply to someone with a prog rock song…like Yes, Genesis, et al…Holy crap the results were terrible. It was like Heaven metal, German, System of The Down type stuff. A friend was saying he thought this same AI music creation thing was getting worse as it starts training on itself. And I swear when we first started talking about all this earlier this year, the results were actually much better. Uh huh. That's what I keep saying - it's beyond stupid. AI has no idea what it's doing, it has no concept of what music is .... or maths, food, history .... in fact it has no concept of anything, that's why I call it "Fake Intelligence" It runs a probability language model and spits out the result of a billion averages drawn from paths that have a greater occurrence and higher probability. A three year old has an actual understanding of maths because if you give it 3 apples and tell it over and over it has 4 - even at three years old it will use it's eyes, touch and reasoning to dismiss your training and conclude it has 3. An AI will tell you it has 4 - if you keep telling it that. AI beyond stupid, which is probably what makes the whole AI thing so blinking dangerous!
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Post by the other mark williams on Aug 2, 2024 11:19:48 GMT -6
Funny update: I just got invited to speak at an event that is sponsored by Suno AI. WTF. I'd take my phone with me, think what I wanted to say, speak it into your chatGPT app, and then read it back verbatim. And work your way through your talk like that. Get to the end, and ask how everyone liked it. Speech as performance art. Love it! But you could actually just have ChatGPT read it out loud, and hold the mic up to the phone. You could even tell it to read in a sophisticated posh British accent to make it sound smarter. Even if this were just the first 5 mins of the talk, it would demonstrate something.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 2, 2024 14:06:59 GMT -6
I just combined The Beatles and Eagles... And AI created The Beagles "It's Another Norwegian Sunrise". Hey... How about a Best "Worst" AI song contest? Current Top 40 however, will be immediately disqualified. If not sooner.
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Post by bgrotto on Aug 2, 2024 15:27:09 GMT -6
Funny update: I just got invited to speak at an event that is sponsored by Suno AI. WTF. I'd take my phone with me, think what I wanted to say, speak it into your chatGPT app, and then read it back verbatim. And work your way through your talk like that. Get to the end, and ask how everyone liked it. Y'know, with the pay being offered*, I just might have to do exactly that 😂 * to be fair, Suno is not the party making the offer; they are just a sponsor for the event. The even itself is being organized by a seemingly well-meaning and nice local musician.
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