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Post by frans on Jul 29, 2024 3:53:49 GMT -6
The problem with AI is the ruling of an US court that you can not copyright it. Read: there will be no money in it. Then, AI is not making any profits for the tech industry and seems to be the next bubble, like (anybody remember the hype?) blockchain. Then, would you want to live in a society where creators of great art cease to exist and are substituted by sub-mediocre AI generated dribble that will have to compete against the greatest art that allready exists?
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 29, 2024 3:56:41 GMT -6
Well…in the country world, for the songwriter the radio is still king. You get a No.1 you can make 6-7 figures depending on your deal. So, that had been the goal until artists suddenly decided to sit in the room become songwriters…Sometimes I don’t realize how backwards that is to the rest of the world. But what happens when the majority of radio songs are AI ? ( like in about 12 months )
You mean it's not already! Mainstream commercial radio in the UK is beyond dreadful! |
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Post by christophert on Jul 29, 2024 4:15:06 GMT -6
But what happens when the majority of radio songs are AI ? ( like in about 12 months )
You mean it's not already! Mainstream commercial radio in the UK is beyond dreadful! It is everywhere. Its often hard to tell the difference. My guess is most of radio and streaming will be quickly abandoned as it all sounds the same : including bands that are not AI. |
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Post by OtisGreying on Jul 29, 2024 4:56:53 GMT -6
The problem with AI is the ruling of an US court that you can not copyright it. Read: there will be no money in it. Then, AI is not making any profits for the tech industry and seems to be the next bubble, like (anybody remember the hype?) blockchain. Then, would you want to live in a society where creators of great art cease to exist and are substituted by sub-mediocre AI generated dribble that will have to compete against the greatest art that allready exists? To add on to this, typing onto google right now there is already 7 AI music creator websites popping up.
Give it a year, I'm sure they'll be 100, then 1000, then so on.. it will be so saturated the entire AI market will be forced to charge next to nothing for its services. You'll probably be able to create AI music for free as long as your willing to watch ads in between at some point. As it stands 95%+ of users probably are just doing free trials for this AI stuff (as far as music and photos at least), those numbers are not going to get better from here IMO.
So I too don't see how AI art services are going to be making much profits, except for right now, because right now its fresh and new.
I do see it screwing over musicians/composers who are hired to work on projects where the importance of the music isn't too high on the priority list. Like a Life Insurance commercial, or something. Those jobs are probably gonna be gone soon. Then again though, if the music coming out of their algorithm isn't copyrighted, how will it be used for commercial purposes anyway?
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Post by OtisGreying on Jul 29, 2024 5:14:53 GMT -6
Well, the labels pay nothing to cut the songs written by songwriters. It’s all collected through performance and publishing royalties. We are just honored they’ve allowed us the opportunity to split 10% or $.005 cents per impression. Of course, the labels/publishers could just build their own AI platforms and pay nothing. Who knows…maybe it will push people to be more original because AI CANT do that. What worries me is the ability for people to track their own stuff at a professional level. It will decimate the industry. The art of playing an instrument will eventually be lost and an artform completely stolen from us. I read Spotify is already trying to so this so they can keep 100%. Spotify doesn't own any copyrights though. So if they use AI they can't use the record labels catalogues to fuel the algorithm. I'm pretty sure the labels are suing these AI websites as we speak so they can't use their music.
If that works, only the labels will have the capability of really utilizing such an algorithm. Yes, they could take advantage of their leverage and saturate the shit out of the market with AI songs. In my mind though that just means more mediocrity. A good composer can write a great cue in very little time. Or a great songwriter can write something very effective for a given singer whom he/she understands artistically.
But who is going to be the one to sift through AI music to choose what is actually good and what isn't? What deserves a marketing budget and what doesn't? If it's the money people - then they are going to implode themselves by marketing garbage and lighting money on fire because they will find out the hard way that they do not have the taste to 100% formularize the musical process.
So are they gonna hire great composers and great songwriters to pick and choose what AI songs and compositions are the strongest? Every single AI song I've listened to has not sounded special to me at all, all of it has sounded exceptionally generic, except for the humorous joke songs some of those have been pretty funny.  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 29, 2024 6:31:22 GMT -6
The problem with AI is the ruling of an US court that you can not copyright it. Read: there will be no money in it. Then, AI is not making any profits for the tech industry and seems to be the next bubble, like (anybody remember the hype?) blockchain. Then, would you want to live in a society where creators of great art cease to exist and are substituted by sub-mediocre AI generated dribble that will have to compete against the greatest art that allready exists? So, just how are they going to police whether something was created with AI? And the blockchain is absolutely still alive and well. Problem there is it would work too well…no opportunity for corruption. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 29, 2024 6:46:51 GMT -6
But like I said - this is kinda easier for me because the song is basically produced by AI. We didn’t completely cop the parts, but the vibe was pretty much the same. And I get the sense that it’s generated a little more work because now maybe I’m getting a few that could never do this before because they can’t play anything, sing anything or write music. Jesus. That was the most depressing sentence I’ve ever written. Yeah... I think we can agree that's about the most depressing thing I've ever read on any interknot space dedicated to the craft of audio production. Geez. So why take that work? People who can't play... can't sing... can't write... Why deal with any of that unless you enjoy the self inflicted wounds..? I wouldn't endure that. And honestly just can't relate to or understand much of what's been said here. I do get that its affecting people. Have a friend who's in what we'd probably call the "custom jingle" business, and seeing as how those are bit of a luxury commodity these days he's feeling the squeeze. And we've talked about how to re-invent his career... Vanity projects though? Sure! Hell yeah! Bring 'em on! Some have been really great. Thing is, when I get something like that its almost never about programming & fake drums... I get people who are all-in and need the real deal. And if the needs are too big for my own shop then we'll book time in a killer room like my home away from home Big Blue North. We did this one in about 5 days... 4 songs in 5 days. Front to back. Tracked & mixed on the RND 5088. Blasted to 1/2" 30ips on the Mike Spitz ATR. Finish a song, zero the faders start the next one. Cowboy style! Then off to Brad Blackwood @ Euphonic for mastering. They even traveled from Florida to upstate NY! Look. Its very simple. I get the indie thing... oh we don't have any money... But rather then crawl into the hole and wallow around in muck I'm going to extend a ladder and offer a way out... that yes, we can do this and be very real, very honest about it. No excuses. No bullshit. Either that or I don't take the work. Really simple. www.bigbluenorth.com/studiowww.euphonicmasters.com/I’m kind've confounded by people being confused by this. “Why would you take a job like this?” How about making a living? Maybe you get to pick and choose who you work with, but why would I turn down work that just requires me to basically just re-play the music? It’s easy. It’s going to be the death of the music industry, but I’m not turning down money. Maybe I’m not conveying the issue well enough. If I had to wait on music I was interested in, I wouldn’t make a living. Seems like the most of the time, the most clueless can be the easiest to work with. It’s the “artist” who has been trying to make it for 10 years that’s the one that will throw your ass under the bus when people aren’t compelled by their music. Here’s the main point of this thread: I’m getting more and more clients using AI. Soon, those people won’t need my services. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 29, 2024 6:48:47 GMT -6
Well…in the country world, for the songwriter the radio is still king. You get a No.1 you can make 6-7 figures depending on your deal. So, that had been the goal until artists suddenly decided to sit in the room become songwriters…Sometimes I don’t realize how backwards that is to the rest of the world. But what happens when the majority of radio songs are AI ? ( like in about 12 months ) The record companies make a shit load more money. Period. |
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Post by chipbuttie on Jul 29, 2024 7:50:49 GMT -6
I think it could have a huge impact on the industry.
I’m in my 40’s, have worked in audio most of my adult life, the majority of my friends are musicians, work in the industry or are huge music fans. We’re not likely to listen to AI generated music anytime soon and I doubt many on this forum will either. We are also not the average music consumer though. I honestly don’t think the average consumer who listens to radio or whatever the Spotify algorithm spits out will care how a song was made as long as they like it. For us the idea of AI music is quite jarring. For a 10 year old just starting to develop their music tastes and interests it’s not, they don’t know any different. In 10 years time there will be a generation of 20 year olds who grew up with AI music.
Spotify playlists are hugely popular, things life "lofi hip-hop bests to study to" "ambient music for a Sunday morning". People who listen to these aren’t looking for a specific artist they just want to listen to a certain genre. Spotify themselves can generate AI music to fill these playlists and no longer have to pay any royalties at all when people listen to them.
Tv shows and movies that previously needed huge sync budgets can reduce that budget to essentially nothing.
Ai has improved so much in 12 months that I think in the not too distant future it will be able to come up with some genuinely interesting music if prompted correctly. As humans we are also trained on all the music we have heard over the years , AI can probably hear more music than any human could in a lifetime and have a bigger pool to pull from, then it’s just what prompts it’s given.
Yes, people will always play music because it’s fun but having a hobby and making a living are two different things. I think the blacksmith analogy is spot on.
I could be wrong, only time will tell!
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Post by chessparov on Jul 29, 2024 9:16:58 GMT -6
You can't even trust blacksmiths. They forge everything. In fact my Buddy, who's a police detective says when they question them... They always make a bolt. For the door.  Chris P.S. Life Insurance? Honesty is the best policy. |
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Post by chessparov on Jul 29, 2024 9:21:10 GMT -6
I generally think the pessimistic view on this is more correct. It’s freaky what AI can do right now. I heard a couple of country songs that were, like, other than the vocal artifacts, pretty much on par with the bro country on the radio. Like, clever little puns, the exact correct references that pop country makes in every song, perfect wink-y rhymes…kind of jaw dropping. If the warbly vocal wasn’t an immediate giveaway, the phrase “Cute as cucumbers” was used in one of the songs I did last week…so, yeah. AI. We're definitely in a pickle now. |
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Post by jmoose on Jul 29, 2024 9:39:05 GMT -6
I’m kind've confounded by people being confused by this. “Why would you take a job like this?” How about making a living? Maybe you get to pick and choose who you work with, but why would I turn down work that just requires me to basically just re-play the music? It’s easy. It’s going to be the death of the music industry, but I’m not turning down money. Maybe I’m not conveying the issue well enough. If I had to wait on music I was interested in, I wouldn’t make a living. Seems like the most of the time, the most clueless can be the easiest to work with. It’s the “artist” who has been trying to make it for 10 years that’s the one that will throw your ass under the bus when people aren’t compelled by their music. Here’s the main point of this thread: I’m getting more and more clients using AI. Soon, those people won’t need my services. There are lots of ways to make a living. Some of them are going to generate more cash then anything music related... Truthfully if I was really smart I would've opened a business doing something that people actually needed & would print money... laundromat... dry cleaner... even a hot dog cart... The typical studio & production "business model" kinda sucks. We're trying to extract money from people who historically have no money (aka musicians) Why turn that work down? You said it yourself about 100 times... because its easy, and almost anyone can do it... AND its going away. Me? We might both hang microphones & turn knobs but probably (?) couldn't be more different. Yes I get to pick & choose projects. I do indeed have the luxury of saying "no" to things. But! I've also spent the last... maybe 15 odd years really concentrating on steering my career in that direction. And I also travel. As a working freelance producer / engineer type I've made records all over the 48 states. Used to have a sticker that said "Will travel for good music" and 'ya know? That kinda worked! As is - my offer to you a couple weeks back still stands. You wanna try to do some work out of town look me up! I have about 8 days until the big rig & movers arrive... haul everything about 600 miles south to the new spot. I'll extend that ladder to you or anyone else who's serious about crawling out of the hole. But this? The AI band in a box thing? The plans have been on display for a long time... this is just the next generation. Evolve or die. That's kinda how things work for humans. Change is inevitable. |
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Post by EmRR on Jul 29, 2024 9:57:28 GMT -6
I'll only add there's still a very large world of small groups playing traditional music, or singer/songwriters out there touring and playing in front of audiences that primarily want to see other humans perform music in front of them. I have been pleasantly surprised by what I've seen working the live music broadcast show, which is primarily that sort of thing, seeing how many people are living on perma-tour and making it work. Are they getting rich or saving for the future? Probably not. Are they potential recording clients? Probably not.
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Post by drbill on Jul 29, 2024 9:57:56 GMT -6
The problem with AI is the ruling of an US court that you can not copyright it. Read: there will be no money in it. This is currently true. But I have heard that there is legislation in congress working it's way up to allow AI to be involved in copyright. Don't have much more info than that, but one publisher I talked with was freaking out big time. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 29, 2024 10:04:51 GMT -6
Ai has improved so much in 12 months that I think in the not too distant future it will be able to come up with some genuinely interesting music if prompted correctly. There's zero doubt that the newest growth sector in the music industry will be "music prompt engineer". Prompt engineers already make killer $$$$$. |
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Post by EmRR on Jul 29, 2024 10:06:21 GMT -6
If I had to wait on music I was interested in, I wouldn’t make a living. Oh boy is that right, and around here I primarily experience that sort of snobbery from envious artists or recordists who aren't able to get anything going on, it's just a reflexive defense justification for their own sorry position in life. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 29, 2024 10:35:51 GMT -6
I’m kind've confounded by people being confused by this. “Why would you take a job like this?” How about making a living? Maybe you get to pick and choose who you work with, but why would I turn down work that just requires me to basically just re-play the music? It’s easy. It’s going to be the death of the music industry, but I’m not turning down money. Maybe I’m not conveying the issue well enough. If I had to wait on music I was interested in, I wouldn’t make a living. Seems like the most of the time, the most clueless can be the easiest to work with. It’s the “artist” who has been trying to make it for 10 years that’s the one that will throw your ass under the bus when people aren’t compelled by their music. Here’s the main point of this thread: I’m getting more and more clients using AI. Soon, those people won’t need my services. There are lots of ways to make a living. Some of them are going to generate more cash then anything music related... Truthfully if I was really smart I would've opened a business doing something that people actually needed & would print money... laundromat... dry cleaner... even a hot dog cart... The typical studio & production "business model" kinda sucks. We're trying to extract money from people who historically have no money (aka musicians) Why turn that work down? You said it yourself about 100 times... because its easy, and almost anyone can do it... AND its going away. Me? We might both hang microphones & turn knobs but probably (?) couldn't be more different. Yes I get to pick & choose projects. I do indeed have the luxury of saying "no" to things. But! I've also spent the last... maybe 15 odd years really concentrating on steering my career in that direction. And I also travel. As a working freelance producer / engineer type I've made records all over the 48 states. Used to have a sticker that said "Will travel for good music" and 'ya know? That kinda worked! As is - my offer to you a couple weeks back still stands. You wanna try to do some work out of town look me up! I have about 8 days until the big rig & movers arrive... haul everything about 600 miles south to the new spot. I'll extend that ladder to you or anyone else who's serious about crawling out of the hole. But this? The AI band in a box thing? The plans have been on display for a long time... this is just the next generation. Evolve or die. That's kinda how things work for humans. Change is inevitable. I guess I just don't really understand what you're saying. Paraphrasing here: "It's easy, so don't do it." - I don't understand that logic. "Get to a point where you can say 'no' when you want" - I say "no" every day. If you're above this work, good for you. "Travel 600 miles" - No offense intended...but why would that make any financial sense for me and my clients? And finally - the whole point of this thread is that AI is already here...I saw it 4 times last month. We've kinda gotten off topic (me included) debating the merits and drawbacks of AI in the Music Industry. Well it's here. You can stick your head in the sand and be above it all, but like you said - adapt or die. Are you poo pooing the Band in a Box AI thing and then saying "adapt or die?" |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 29, 2024 10:37:37 GMT -6
The problem with AI is the ruling of an US court that you can not copyright it. Read: there will be no money in it. This is currently true. But I have heard that there is legislation in congress working it's way up to allow AI to be involved in copyright. Don't have much more info than that, but one publisher I talked with was freaking out big time. There's a shitload of money to be made. This while change posthaste unless we fight against it. I trust BMI, ASCAP, SESAC (eyeroll emoji) |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 29, 2024 10:41:48 GMT -6
If I had to wait on music I was interested in, I wouldn’t make a living. Oh boy is that right, and around here I primarily experience that sort of snobbery from envious artists or recordists who aren't able to get anything going on, it's just a reflexive defense justification for their own sorry position in life. I've heard one thing in a year that gave me the tingles...and that guy died of a drug overdose (Spencer Lee Band) That's kind of cheating, though because I'm talking about major label too. I've always said I'm jaded and cynical...but my boat can be floated, I just haven't heard much that floats it. I'm sure there's a bunch of great stuff out there, though. |
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Post by christopher on Jul 29, 2024 11:02:42 GMT -6
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 29, 2024 11:02:59 GMT -6
Yeah... I think we can agree that's about the most depressing thing I've ever read on any interknot space dedicated to the craft of audio production. Geez. So why take that work? People who can't play... can't sing... can't write... Why deal with any of that unless you enjoy the self inflicted wounds..? I wouldn't endure that. And honestly just can't relate to or understand much of what's been said here. I do get that its affecting people. Have a friend who's in what we'd probably call the "custom jingle" business, and seeing as how those are bit of a luxury commodity these days he's feeling the squeeze. And we've talked about how to re-invent his career... Vanity projects though? Sure! Hell yeah! Bring 'em on! Some have been really great. Thing is, when I get something like that its almost never about programming & fake drums... I get people who are all-in and need the real deal. And if the needs are too big for my own shop then we'll book time in a killer room like my home away from home Big Blue North. We did this one in about 5 days... 4 songs in 5 days. Front to back. Tracked & mixed on the RND 5088. Blasted to 1/2" 30ips on the Mike Spitz ATR. Finish a song, zero the faders start the next one. Cowboy style! Then off to Brad Blackwood @ Euphonic for mastering. They even traveled from Florida to upstate NY! Look. Its very simple. I get the indie thing... oh we don't have any money... But rather then crawl into the hole and wallow around in muck I'm going to extend a ladder and offer a way out... that yes, we can do this and be very real, very honest about it. No excuses. No bullshit. Either that or I don't take the work. Really simple. www.bigbluenorth.com/studiowww.euphonicmasters.com/I’m kind've confounded by people being confused by this. “Why would you take a job like this?” How about making a living? Maybe you get to pick and choose who you work with, but why would I turn down work that just requires me to basically just re-play the music? It’s easy. It’s going to be the death of the music industry, but I’m not turning down money. Maybe I’m not conveying the issue well enough. If I had to wait on music I was interested in, I wouldn’t make a living. Seems like the most of the time, the most clueless can be the easiest to work with. It’s the “artist” who has been trying to make it for 10 years that’s the one that will throw your ass under the bus when people aren’t compelled by their music. Here’s the main point of this thread: I’m getting more and more clients using AI. Soon, those people won’t need my services. I'm not confused by why you would take this job just to be clear. I'm confused by what the client is getting out of it. I think I understand a bit better now, but with the copyright issues on AI created music it's still a big question mark what their upside is. For you as the engineer / producer, no confusion at all. Actually, as you said, it's probably an easier gig since the robot brains actually have some logic to their arrangements! |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 29, 2024 11:04:30 GMT -6
Too bad this doesn't come with an AI generated beard and fake backstory. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 29, 2024 11:08:17 GMT -6
What baffles me is, who is electing to press a button and have an AI write and play a song for them, surely it’s just non musicians, who get to pretend they’re musicians for 15 minutes until they’re bored and move onto the next florescent flashing app thing ….
Musicians get into music to play and write because it’s challenging fun and personally rewarding.
Would you and your wife step into an “orgasmatron” for two seconds instead of making love for an hour - I think not (Woody Alan reference - Sleeper)
There’s no pride in an AI creation, actually there’s no creation in an AI creation!
It’s pointless, soulless “Muzak” people will tire of it much quicker than you think.
And those that don’t, well they were never going to be your listeners or fans anyway!
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Post by christopher on Jul 29, 2024 11:09:34 GMT -6
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 29, 2024 11:17:35 GMT -6
As everyone is so "worried about AI"
Can someone play me an AI generated song that is actually creative, original, emotional, soulful and get's beyond sounding 1 dimensional and completely plastic!
Anything?
Everything I've heard so far sounds utterly dreadful, I mean beyond dreadful - just generic, derivative plastic drivel.
It all sounds mindless, soulless almost like a machine made it .... oh no wait ....
Maybe it's because I'm a Brit and I grew up on The Beatles, Bowie, The Police, Genesis, Yes, The Sex Pistols
but then again I adored the majesty of Wonder's Songs in the "Key of Life" or Steely Dan's and Donald Fagan's creative output.
Imho an AI will never ever ever get within 1mm of the beauty, humanity, soulfulness and humanity of that music or watching that music being made live.
It takes heart and soul and a connection to something beautiful beyond to make music of this magnificence.
Perhaps I completely missing what people are worried about, in which case I apologise if I'm being unsympathetic to a more immediate issue folk are facing.
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