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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 28, 2024 14:51:15 GMT -6
It's sad. I always try to see the parallels between the music art forms and visual art. AI has much more quickly been able to imitate static imagery. It won a contest recently, I heard. Music and moving picture is harder, but it will get there and I think exponentially fast. Quantum computing comes along and it's really over. Replace the humans. However, with what AI can do with "paintings", has it replaced artists? It's a different thing, I know. I can't tell or not because I don't have the knowledge, but it seems like music as an art form has been commodity driven and cheapened at a rapid pace while people who are still into visual art still all want to go to museums to see the best paintings ever and buy local artists work etc. Why is it different? (If, in truth, it is, which it seems to be.). I went to the museum of the Shenandoah Valley a couple years ago to see all these original Norman Rockwell's and it was incredible. AI is definitely going to decimate (if not completely control) the sync industry. Well, people that make a living off of it. A TV show that needs a bar band in the background ain’t paying $2000 to me anymore when they can get what they need in seconds for free. I’ve used the analogy before…but being a professional songwriter is like being a blacksmith in 1904. There are still blacksmiths 120 years later, but I’d venture to say about 98% less of them than in 1904. It’s also the attitude towards music that this affects too. What’s the value of music when EVERYONE can do it and it sound like a professional product? I really think the introduction of video games and DVDs in the early 2000s devalued music…or at least made it a “lesser” form of creative media. The same kids buying albums for $20 in 2001 were also buying video games and DVDs and probably felt like they were getting a much bigger bang for their buck…and in around 2008 ish music sales started taking a shit. Maybe we need to figure out some kind’ve dongle attached to listening to music. IDK what the answer is. And maybe it’s because I’m so incredibly jaded after 25 years in the industry…but if you think this won’t affect you because you don’t write “this kind of drivel” or “people will choose my material because of it’s obvious brilliance…” - then you’re naive as hell. My fear in all of this is losing music and songwriting as legitimate options to make a living in the next ten years. Yea, the usual gigs where normal folk like me can make a living mixing/recording/gigging is going down for sure. The canary in the coal mine was a while ago, you could say. Agree with a lot of what you say here. I was the kid buying the album in 2001, for sure. Alongside the games. I just don't know the answer but it sucks. I gig in the richest county in America and the pay is sad. One place was offering $75 per player for a 3 hour duo. The guys asked for a measly $100 per and they said fine but no food. It's a race to the bottom as everyone has been saying. I know some of the top players around town and they lament that their fathers(who were perhaps average Joe musicians) made twice what they make now on a gig AND back in the 70s/80s AND a handful of times each week in a cover band. Or the guys who were actually playing in the 70s and comparing it to what they are offered now. You might find a gig a week if you are lucky, and it's not going to pay much for top shelf players, even. It honestly feels like music is going away. However, that is just a tiny fraction of the problem with society at large. Don't get me started on all the other facets of life. It's all part of the same ship going down, IMO. I'm just a bundle of joy, aren't I? |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jul 28, 2024 14:58:13 GMT -6
[...] it seems like music as an art form has been commodity driven and cheapened at a rapid pace while people who are still into visual art still all want to go to museums to see the best paintings ever and buy local artists work etc. Why is it different? (If, in truth, it is, which it seems to be.). I went to the museum of the Shenandoah Valley a couple years ago to see all these original Norman Rockwell's and it was incredible. One reason it's different is just scarcity in the visual arts. Music has been cheapened "per unit" by the vast availability of everything ever recorded for one flat monthly fee. It's true that you can buy a poster of Van Gogh's "The Starry Night" and slap it on the wall of your house, but there really is only one accepted original. To see it, you have to visit the MOMA in NYC. It's interesting, because the world of film and TV is facing a bit of a different problem than we in the music world are. Unlike the music world, of course, you cannot simply subscribe to one service and have access to virtually every movie and TV show ever created. There are some things about their situation that is better as a result. But not everything. The problem they face is that it's prohibitively expensive for most of us to subscribe to every service. If there is enough content available in the services you subscribe to, you're unlikely to look too hard for that little indie movie you're actually interested in seeing, but aren't willing to rent from Amazon since you already have so much included content at your monthly subscription fee. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 14:58:40 GMT -6
I’m traditionally against unions because we’ve kinda passed the point where unions seem to hurt more than they help. But holy shit, if anything ever needed a union, music creation is it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 15:00:36 GMT -6
[...] it seems like music as an art form has been commodity driven and cheapened at a rapid pace while people who are still into visual art still all want to go to museums to see the best paintings ever and buy local artists work etc. Why is it different? (If, in truth, it is, which it seems to be.). I went to the museum of the Shenandoah Valley a couple years ago to see all these original Norman Rockwell's and it was incredible. One reason it's different is just scarcity in the visual arts. Music has been cheapened "per unit" by the vast availability of everything ever recorded for one flat monthly fee. It's true that you can buy a poster of Van Gogh's "The Starry Night" and slap it on the wall of your house, but there really is only one accepted original. To see it, you have to visit the MOMA in NYC. It's interesting, because the world of film and TV is facing a bit of a different problem than we in the music world are. Unlike the music world, of course, you cannot simply subscribe to one service and have access to virtually every movie and TV show ever created. There are some things about their situation that is better as a result. But not everything. The problem they face is that it's prohibitively expensive for most of us to subscribe to every service. If there is enough content available in the services you subscribe to, you're unlikely to look too hard for that little indie movie you're actually interested in seeing, but aren't willing to rent from Amazon since you already have so much included content at your monthly subscription fee. Well, and the fact that the main revenue is advertisement for television…that’s a huge difference. |
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 28, 2024 15:37:15 GMT -6
You’re forgetting the part where human beings play instruments in the first place because it brings them joy. Maybe for people that don’t depend on the money to feed their families. Relying on recording your instrument to feed your family is a totally separate issue from the art of playing an instrument becoming lost. |
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 28, 2024 15:41:17 GMT -6
Well, then maybe its time to invest in real instruments making real sounds that can be played by real people..? If everyone has access to the same fake drums, fake B3, fake guitar amps ... then what's the point of hiring anyone?! They can just as easily do the "paint by numbers" thing at leisure, at home in their PJ's without any pressure or someone being all up their face to say... hey, you could play that better lets do a few more takes. Like a real trusted producer would... that's intimidating. And suffice to say at that point? Nobody is chasing tone either. Fake 57 into a $200 interface is good enough. People who book time for their craft, making a serious investment in their art want access to the stuff they don't have at home. I'm with bgrotto in that at this point in my career I'm established enough in what I do that people who would want that kind of 'fast food production' would never book me in the first place. Case in point? This new single from Gillian Welch is simply beautiful... gorgeous tones... performances... and not a hint of anything "fake / plastic / AI" that really caught my ear on the radio last week. To me this? This is the standard. True art. And people who want this kinda thing? They aren't going to book superior drummer & easy keys... but real junk? They might come hang out for a week or two and make a record. But you know that. We all know that. AI ain't got nothing on this. And that's totally oK with me! I mean…ok. I hope you’re right. I’m pretty gobsmacked by what I’ve heard from AI. Sure - right now it’s a bit hokey…but we’re literally not even a year into this stuff being available. How many people do you see doing Caligraphy? Oddly enough, I got OBSESSED with doing calligraphy when I was a kid. So maybe I’m just a weird anachronistic guy in general. Though I reckon it would have served me well if I’d have pursued the tattoo artist career I was briefly flirting with…. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 28, 2024 15:46:29 GMT -6
Who knows…maybe it will push people to be more original because AI CANT do that. What worries me is the ability for people to track their own stuff at a professional level. It will decimate the industry. The art of playing an instrument will eventually be lost and an artform completely stolen from us. Case in point? This new single from Gillian Welch is simply beautiful... gorgeous tones... performances... and not a hint of anything "fake / plastic / AI" that really caught my ear on the radio last week. <<snip>> AI ain't got nothing on this. And that's totally oK with me! Maybe you have been out of the loop, but AI can and IS doing exactly this type of music. And pretty well. It's got a way to go, but it's not even September yet, so..... |
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Post by drbill on Jul 28, 2024 15:48:08 GMT -6
It would be nice if we got to a point where one could opt out of having their art used in AI trained programs. The horse is WAY out of the barn on that one..... |
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Post by ragan on Jul 28, 2024 15:55:45 GMT -6
I generally think the pessimistic view on this is more correct. It’s freaky what AI can do right now. I heard a couple of country songs that were, like, other than the vocal artifacts, pretty much on par with the bro country on the radio. Like, clever little puns, the exact correct references that pop country makes in every song, perfect wink-y rhymes…kind of jaw dropping.
The more Pollyanna-ish take of “no, people crave authenticity and will rally to support the true art”…like, when has humanity ever, in any circumstance, displayed this quality? I am not holding my breath for people to suddenly, out of nowhere, develop the kind of spine it would take to resist easy, cheap, shit. Like, all of modernity is evidence against this being likely to happen.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 28, 2024 15:58:32 GMT -6
Thank God for real singers/Instrumentalists. Ketchup later.  |
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Post by drbill on Jul 28, 2024 16:02:43 GMT -6
AI is definitely going to decimate (if not completely control) the sync industry. Well, people that make a living off of it. A TV show that needs a bar band in the background ain’t paying $2000 to me anymore when they can get what they need in seconds for free. I’ve used the analogy before…but being a professional songwriter is like being a blacksmith in 1904. There are still blacksmiths 120 years later, but I’d venture to say about 98% less of them than in 1904. It’s also the attitude towards music that this affects too. What’s the value of music when EVERYONE can do it and it sound like a professional product? I really think the introduction of video games and DVDs in the early 2000s devalued music…or at least made it a “lesser” form of creative media. The same kids buying albums for $20 in 2001 were also buying video games and DVDs and probably felt like they were getting a much bigger bang for their buck…and in around 2008 ish music sales started taking a shit. Maybe we need to figure out some kind’ve dongle attached to listening to music. IDK what the answer is. And maybe it’s because I’m so incredibly jaded after 25 years in the industry…but if you think this won’t affect you because you don’t write “this kind of drivel” or “people will choose my material because of its obvious brilliance…” - then you’re naive as hell. My fear in all of this is losing music and songwriting as legitimate options to make a living in the next ten years. This is dead on. Sync is decimated. Even custom scoring film / TV will be decimated. The blacksmith analogy is dead on too. Professional (as in earning their living at it) Songwriters and Composers will still be in existence in 5-10 years, but they will only be the elitist of the elite. To believe anything else is to be beyond naive. Or sleeping..... My perspective on earning a living has been changed radically in the last 6 months. Luckily I have tens of thousands of sync's in TV shows and films over the last couple decades - and even though they (mostly) only pay a penny per stream (per quarter), they add up enough to be able to survive. And those myriads of new cable and streaming channels need SOMEthing to fill time..... Yeah, that money is just POURING in.  . As if having to give away my publishing, and then 50% of the writers for the privilege of working wasn't enough....now we get to give it ALL away. 100%. Lucky us. We're just so privileged to be in the glamour music BUSINESS. Haha. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 28, 2024 16:06:05 GMT -6
PS - wait.....my pennies are in jeopardy now too as BMI has just been bought by a VERY ALTRUISTIC venture capitol company. Oh well....we're all going to get a universal income package soon - right? Right??
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 28, 2024 16:12:37 GMT -6
I generally think the pessimistic view on this is more correct. It’s freaky what AI can do right now. I heard a couple of country songs that were, like, other than the vocal artifacts, pretty much on par with the bro country on the radio. Like, clever little puns, the exact correct references that pop country makes in every song, perfect wink-y rhymes…kind of jaw dropping. The more Pollyanna-ish take of “no, people crave authenticity and will rally to support the true art”…like, when has humanity ever, in any circumstance, displayed this quality? I am not holding my breath for people to suddenly, out of nowhere, develop the kind of spine it would take to resist easy, cheap, shit. Like, all of modernity is evidence against this being likely to happen. Your average music fan of course doesn’t care. But audio professionals get paid by the musicians, and I expect they will continue to care — even in the continued (yes, continued, cuz it’s a decades old problem at this point) face of the apathy of the listeners — because it matters to them as artists. I acknowledge this leaves professional songwriters in the cold, and that’s a huge bummer. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 16:12:49 GMT -6
I mean…ok. I hope you’re right. I’m pretty gobsmacked by what I’ve heard from AI. Sure - right now it’s a bit hokey…but we’re literally not even a year into this stuff being available. How many people do you see doing Caligraphy? Oddly enough, I got OBSESSED with doing calligraphy when I was a kid. So maybe I’m just a weird anachronistic guy in general. Though I reckon it would have served me well if I’d have pursued the tattoo artist career I was briefly flirting with…. But you didn’t feed your family with the profits from your calligraphy career. Look - I get that you don’t see it this way, but I’m not going to argue about an opinion… |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 16:14:09 GMT -6
I generally think the pessimistic view on this is more correct. It’s freaky what AI can do right now. I heard a couple of country songs that were, like, other than the vocal artifacts, pretty much on par with the bro country on the radio. Like, clever little puns, the exact correct references that pop country makes in every song, perfect wink-y rhymes…kind of jaw dropping. The more Pollyanna-ish take of “no, people crave authenticity and will rally to support the true art”…like, when has humanity ever, in any circumstance, displayed this quality? I am not holding my breath for people to suddenly, out of nowhere, develop the kind of spine it would take to resist easy, cheap, shit. Like, all of modernity is evidence against this being likely to happen. This |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 16:19:31 GMT -6
I generally think the pessimistic view on this is more correct. It’s freaky what AI can do right now. I heard a couple of country songs that were, like, other than the vocal artifacts, pretty much on par with the bro country on the radio. Like, clever little puns, the exact correct references that pop country makes in every song, perfect wink-y rhymes…kind of jaw dropping. The more Pollyanna-ish take of “no, people crave authenticity and will rally to support the true art”…like, when has humanity ever, in any circumstance, displayed this quality? I am not holding my breath for people to suddenly, out of nowhere, develop the kind of spine it would take to resist easy, cheap, shit. Like, all of modernity is evidence against this being likely to happen. Your average music fan of course doesn’t care. But audio professionals get paid by the musicians, and I expect they will continue to care — even in the continued (yes, continued, cuz it’s a decades old problem at this point) face of the apathy of the listeners — because it matters to them as artists. I acknowledge this leaves professional songwriters in the cold, and that’s a huge bummer. With all due respect, I think this is being incredibly naive. We’re not talking about an apathetic customer base. That was phase one - you know - where we gave away every song in the world for $15/month…phase two is replacing everyone that made that music. Might be a while, but it’s coming. And no - it won’t completely replace people making music…but it will replace all but a handful that make actual money for it. I mean - it’s akin to being in the 1930’s during the invention of the washing machine and saying, “well, people that really value well-washed clothes will still pay me 1000% more to wash their clothes…” Ok - I said I wouldn’t argue and then I argued…so I guess there’s not really much more for me to say on the subject. |
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 28, 2024 16:28:19 GMT -6
Your average music fan of course doesn’t care. But audio professionals get paid by the musicians, and I expect they will continue to care — even in the continued (yes, continued, cuz it’s a decades old problem at this point) face of the apathy of the listeners — because it matters to them as artists. I acknowledge this leaves professional songwriters in the cold, and that’s a huge bummer. With all due respect, I think this is being incredibly naive. We’re not talking about an apathetic customer base. That was phase one - you know - where we gave away every song in the world for $15/month…phase two is replacing everyone that made that music. Might be a while, but it’s coming. And no - it won’t completely replace people making music…but it will replace all but a handful that make actual money for it. I mean - it’s akin to being in the 1930’s during the invention of the washing machine and saying, “well, people that really value well-washed clothes will still pay me 1000% more to wash their clothes…” Ok - I said I wouldn’t argue and then I argued…so I guess there’s not really much more for me to say on the subject. And my point is simply that most of my clients ALREADY don’t make much (or any) money from music. It doesn’t stop them from wanting quality recordings of their efforts, and paying for that privilege. again, I am sympathetic to where this leaves professional writers. But I am far less pessimistic about certain aspects of the technical trades and production side of things. There is and has long existed a client base for people like me working in that field, and I really don’t see it diminishing much because some joker at a record label or ad agency can generate a song using AI. Id also add that MOST of the money for MOST of the players is nit (and has never been) in royalties. It’s live performance, and I don’t think the kiddos are gonna give up on seeing their favorite pop stars perform, even if the pop stars are performing songs created by generative AI. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 16:36:52 GMT -6
With all due respect, I think this is being incredibly naive. We’re not talking about an apathetic customer base. That was phase one - you know - where we gave away every song in the world for $15/month…phase two is replacing everyone that made that music. Might be a while, but it’s coming. And no - it won’t completely replace people making music…but it will replace all but a handful that make actual money for it. I mean - it’s akin to being in the 1930’s during the invention of the washing machine and saying, “well, people that really value well-washed clothes will still pay me 1000% more to wash their clothes…” Ok - I said I wouldn’t argue and then I argued…so I guess there’s not really much more for me to say on the subject. And my point is simply that most of my clients ALREADY don’t make much (or any) money from music. It doesn’t stop them from wanting quality recordings of their efforts, and paying for that privilege. again, I am sympathetic to where this leaves professional writers. But I am far less pessimistic about certain aspects of the technical trades and production side of things. There is and has long existed a client base for people like me working in that field, and I really don’t see it diminishing much because some joker at a record label or ad agency can generate a song using AI. Id also add that MOST of the money for MOST of the players is nit (and has never been) in royalties. It’s live performance, and I don’t think the kiddos are gonna give up on seeing their favorite pop stars perform, even if the pop stars are performing songs created by generative AI. And most of my clients don’t make a living from it either…and my thought is once they don’t have to pay thousands and can have a complete song in seconds…the choice for most of those people will be clear. 🤷♂️ |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 28, 2024 16:44:48 GMT -6
Worktapes. I gotta be honest, I’m not sure they didn’t just say “write a country song” and nothing else. I’m not saying it’s bad, either - the AI country stuff sounds like the freaking radio (for better or worse)…so now songs are going to start sounding even more similar. It’s actually a lot better for me, because now I have a full band demo to just cop…no thinking involved. Right now it seems like it might even be generating work for me…But what happens when this shit gets good enough that there’s no warble in the vocals…and sonically it’s perfect? When they can say, “yes, robot, I love that. Now send me each instrument in wav files. It’s coming. I don't understand what you mean by the title. What are you receiving that's AI generated and what are they asking you to do with it? |
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 28, 2024 16:46:41 GMT -6
And my point is simply that most of my clients ALREADY don’t make much (or any) money from music. It doesn’t stop them from wanting quality recordings of their efforts, and paying for that privilege. again, I am sympathetic to where this leaves professional writers. But I am far less pessimistic about certain aspects of the technical trades and production side of things. There is and has long existed a client base for people like me working in that field, and I really don’t see it diminishing much because some joker at a record label or ad agency can generate a song using AI. Id also add that MOST of the money for MOST of the players is nit (and has never been) in royalties. It’s live performance, and I don’t think the kiddos are gonna give up on seeing their favorite pop stars perform, even if the pop stars are performing songs created by generative AI. And most of my clients don’t make a living from it either…and my thought is once they don’t have to pay thousands and can have a complete song in seconds…the choice for most of those people will be clear. 🤷♂️ I’m afraid you are probably right about that, which I think we agree will have a real draining effect on the quality of professional writing. I have this dream (or maybe it’s a nightmare…) that AI will become something of a dividing line amongst audiences, and not just in music. AI will cannabalize the entire internet as we know it, at which point it will be forced to “learn” from itself, having driven away original content creators. That’ll lead to a pretty lame user experience. The “dream”/nightmare” part of this scenario is creative people will still create, and thus a second (likely more expensive 🙄) internet is born; one that is AI-limited or even AI-free. I reckon similar things would happen across content platforms as well. imagine a paid tier of Spotify that is “premium and guaranteed AI-free”. They’d be fools not to market this. The problem here is it likely consolidates more power in the tech industry, as always. At least, without any sort of decent organized labor movement from creators. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 16:55:35 GMT -6
Worktapes. I gotta be honest, I’m not sure they didn’t just say “write a country song” and nothing else. I’m not saying it’s bad, either - the AI country stuff sounds like the freaking radio (for better or worse)…so now songs are going to start sounding even more similar. It’s actually a lot better for me, because now I have a full band demo to just cop…no thinking involved. Right now it seems like it might even be generating work for me…But what happens when this shit gets good enough that there’s no warble in the vocals…and sonically it’s perfect? When they can say, “yes, robot, I love that. Now send me each instrument in wav files. It’s coming. I don't understand what you mean by the title. What are you receiving that's AI generated and what are they asking you to do with it? I do production for clients…they usually send me a worktape. Some decent, some so bad I have to help. I had 3 different people (who normally send pretty remedial guitar worktapes) send me completely AI versions to re-track. Actually - the one guy with two songs was new come to think of it. I don’t know if they literally didnt do anything but type in a prompt, or whether it was just the music… But like I said - this is kinda easier for me because the song is basically produced by AI. We didn’t completely cop the parts, but the vibe was pretty much the same. And I get the sense that it’s generated a little more work because now maybe I’m getting a few that could never do this before because they can’t play anything, sing anything or write music. Jesus. That was the most depressing sentence I’ve ever written. But the point of all this is that AI is affecting my business right now. Not in the future. Hey - if it stayed this benevolent - I’m golden. I mean - what could go wrong? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 16:57:40 GMT -6
And most of my clients don’t make a living from it either…and my thought is once they don’t have to pay thousands and can have a complete song in seconds…the choice for most of those people will be clear. 🤷♂️ I’m afraid you are probably right about that, which I think we agree will have a real draining effect on the quality of professional writing. I have this dream (or maybe it’s a nightmare…) that AI will become something of a dividing line amongst audiences, and not just in music. AI will cannabalize the entire internet as we know it, at which point it will be forced to “learn” from itself, having driven away original content creators. That’ll lead to a pretty lame user experience. The “dream”/nightmare” part of this scenario is creative people will still create, and thus a second (likely more expensive 🙄) internet is born; one that is AI-limited or even AI-free. I reckon similar things would happen across content platforms as well. imagine a paid tier of Spotify that is “premium and guaranteed AI-free”. They’d be fools not to market this. The problem here is it likely consolidates more power in the tech industry, as always. At least, without any sort of decent organized labor movement from creators. Hey - that’s not an impossible scenario…here’s hoping you’re right. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 28, 2024 17:01:17 GMT -6
And my point is simply that most of my clients ALREADY don’t make much (or any) money from music. Interesting. You must be in a demo market then?? 85% + of my clients rely on music for 100% of their income. And they are slated for extinction. At least as far as music is concerned.... |
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Post by drbill on Jul 28, 2024 17:05:56 GMT -6
again, I am sympathetic to where this leaves professional writers. But I am far less pessimistic about certain aspects of the technical trades and production side of things. Id also add that MOST of the money for MOST of the players is nit (and has never been) in royalties. It’s live performance Wow. Can't state enough how much my world is different. All music production stems from writers. Nix that, and everything downstream tanks. Technical trades and production will suffer greatly. All musicians I know realized 20+ years ago that live gigs was quickly becoming a financial waste of time, and that royalties are the ONLY path to sustained survival. My $0.02 devalued to $0.00034527 by AI..... |
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Post by drbill on Jul 28, 2024 17:08:46 GMT -6
I don't understand what you mean by the title. What are you receiving that's AI generated and what are they asking you to do with it? I was wondering that too..... |
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