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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 27, 2024 21:55:06 GMT -6
Worktapes. I gotta be honest, I’m not sure they didn’t just say “write a country song” and nothing else. I’m not saying it’s bad, either - the AI country stuff sounds like the freaking radio (for better or worse)…so now songs are going to start sounding even more similar.
It’s actually a lot better for me, because now I have a full band demo to just cop…no thinking involved. Right now it seems like it might even be generating work for me…But what happens when this shit gets good enough that there’s no warble in the vocals…and sonically it’s perfect? When they can say, “yes, robot, I love that. Now send me each instrument in wav files. It’s coming.
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Post by theshea on Jul 28, 2024 1:09:31 GMT -6
yes its coming (or is it already here?!). AI songwriting, mixing, mastering … welcome to the most boring musical period in history where only „products“ are made.
but right now my hope is that these products will „only“ appeal to people consuming passively music. the active music fans will reach out for „real“ music. and this movement will get stronger and stronger and that will be chance for music as art to survive.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 28, 2024 3:58:59 GMT -6
Hey theshea I agree, Bring it on …. wall to wall AI cr*p. Then hopefully my years of songwriting craft and musician will stand out even more. How does the saying go “…. at night a candles brighter than the sun” |
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 28, 2024 5:17:45 GMT -6
I keep saying: the folks who want cheap, instant AI gratification were never gonna spend the money nor the time to work with me in the first place. And nor would I wanna work with them. At least in terms of engineering, producing, and (albeit to a slightly lesser extent) mixing, I don’t really feel too much pressure to “compete” with AI.
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Post by theshea on Jul 28, 2024 6:04:41 GMT -6
Hey theshea I agree, Bring it on …. wall to wall AI cr*p. Then hopefully my years of songwriting craft and musician will stand out even more. How does the saying go “…. at night a candles brighter than the sun” i just hope the people standing on the side of „real“ music will be enough people, not just a niche, some retro fetish nerds … |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 8:19:53 GMT -6
Hey theshea I agree, Bring it on …. wall to wall AI cr*p. Then hopefully my years of songwriting craft and musician will stand out even more. How does the saying go “…. at night a candles brighter than the sun” Your “years of songwriting craft” will be replaced in seconds. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 28, 2024 9:48:01 GMT -6
Hey theshea I agree, Bring it on …. wall to wall AI cr*p. Then hopefully my years of songwriting craft and musician will stand out even more. How does the saying go “…. at night a candles brighter than the sun” Your “years of songwriting craft” will be replaced in seconds. The interesting door now opened is the big labels suing the AI generators for putting out music "trained" on their catalogs. That is a curious thing. Of course, I am trained on the same catalogs, but AI is different. If they win and set a precedent, maybe they can trace what songs the AI trained on from the output and a royalty has to be paid. All of this doesn't help the little guy, of course. I also have no clue how the AI works so I might be talking nonsense. Maybe all these signs will push me to get a real job that actually pays a livable wage. Just thinking out loud. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 28, 2024 10:47:21 GMT -6
Hey theshea I agree, Bring it on …. wall to wall AI cr*p. Then hopefully my years of songwriting craft and musician will stand out even more. How does the saying go “…. at night a candles brighter than the sun” Your “years of songwriting craft” will be replaced in seconds. What it most likely will come down to is how much an AI written song will cost the labels in the long run vs you. If the AI companies see the long game and want a royalty like payment structure, it won t be as bad, if it’s x amount for a song up front, your boned. Not because of the quality but simply because if the lables can say this song cost x so here’s the whole budget, it significantly reduces the risks on their part. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 11:08:27 GMT -6
Your “years of songwriting craft” will be replaced in seconds. What it most likely will come down to is how much an AI written song will cost the labels in the long run vs you. If the AI companies see the long game and want a royalty like payment structure, it won t be as bad, if it’s x amount for a song up front, your boned. Not because of the quality but simply because if the lables can say this song cost x so here’s the whole budget, it significantly reduces the risks on their part. Well, the labels pay nothing to cut the songs written by songwriters. It’s all collected through performance and publishing royalties. We are just honored they’ve allowed us the opportunity to split 10% of $.005 cents per impression. Of course, the labels/publishers could just build their own AI platforms and pay nothing. Who knows…maybe it will push people to be more original because AI CANT do that. What worries me is the ability for people to track their own stuff at a professional level. It will decimate the industry. The art of playing an instrument will eventually be lost and an artform completely stolen from us. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 28, 2024 11:37:11 GMT -6
What it most likely will come down to is how much an AI written song will cost the labels in the long run vs you. If the AI companies see the long game and want a royalty like payment structure, it won t be as bad, if it’s x amount for a song up front, your boned. Not because of the quality but simply because if the lables can say this song cost x so here’s the whole budget, it significantly reduces the risks on their part. Well, the labels pay nothing to cut the songs written by songwriters. It’s all collected through performance and publishing royalties. We are just honored they’ve allowed us the opportunity to split 10% or $.005 cents per impression. Of course, the labels/publishers could just build their own AI platforms and pay nothing. Who knows…maybe it will push people to be more original because AI CANT do that. What worries me is the ability for people to track their own stuff at a professional level. It will decimate the industry. The art of playing an instrument will eventually be lost and an artform completely stolen from us. I read Spotify is already trying to so this so they can keep 100%. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 28, 2024 11:50:53 GMT -6
Hey theshea I agree, Bring it on …. wall to wall AI cr*p. Then hopefully my years of songwriting craft and musician will stand out even more. How does the saying go “…. at night a candles brighter than the sun” Your “years of songwriting craft” will be replaced in seconds. LOL .... not a chance. I don't write boring main stream pap so an AI (being an utterly stupid data set regurgitation algorithm) won't get within a country mile of my compositions and lyric writing. I'm original, an "arteest"  |
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 28, 2024 11:54:37 GMT -6
What it most likely will come down to is how much an AI written song will cost the labels in the long run vs you. If the AI companies see the long game and want a royalty like payment structure, it won t be as bad, if it’s x amount for a song up front, your boned. Not because of the quality but simply because if the lables can say this song cost x so here’s the whole budget, it significantly reduces the risks on their part. Well, the labels pay nothing to cut the songs written by songwriters. It’s all collected through performance and publishing royalties. We are just honored they’ve allowed us the opportunity to split 10% or $.005 cents per impression. Of course, the labels/publishers could just build their own AI platforms and pay nothing. Who knows…maybe it will push people to be more original because AI CANT do that. What worries me is the ability for people to track their own stuff at a professional level. It will decimate the industry. The art of playing an instrument will eventually be lost and an artform completely stolen from us. You’re forgetting the part where human beings play instruments in the first place because it brings them joy. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 12:13:00 GMT -6
Your “years of songwriting craft” will be replaced in seconds. LOL .... not a chance. I don't write boring main stream pap so an AI (being an utterly stupid data set regurgitation algorithm) won't get within a country mile of my compositions and lyric writing. I'm original, an "arteest" You should share something, then. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 12:13:55 GMT -6
Well, the labels pay nothing to cut the songs written by songwriters. It’s all collected through performance and publishing royalties. We are just honored they’ve allowed us the opportunity to split 10% or $.005 cents per impression. Of course, the labels/publishers could just build their own AI platforms and pay nothing. Who knows…maybe it will push people to be more original because AI CANT do that. What worries me is the ability for people to track their own stuff at a professional level. It will decimate the industry. The art of playing an instrument will eventually be lost and an artform completely stolen from us. You’re forgetting the part where human beings play instruments in the first place because it brings them joy. Maybe for people that don’t depend on the money to feed their families. |
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Post by jmoose on Jul 28, 2024 12:32:50 GMT -6
Who knows…maybe it will push people to be more original because AI CANT do that. What worries me is the ability for people to track their own stuff at a professional level. It will decimate the industry. The art of playing an instrument will eventually be lost and an artform completely stolen from us. Well, then maybe its time to invest in real instruments making real sounds that can be played by real people..? If everyone has access to the same fake drums, fake B3, fake guitar amps ... then what's the point of hiring anyone?! They can just as easily do the "paint by numbers" thing at leisure, at home in their PJ's without any pressure or someone being all up their face to say... hey, you could play that better lets do a few more takes. Like a real trusted producer would... that's intimidating. And suffice to say at that point? Nobody is chasing tone either. Fake 57 into a $200 interface is good enough. People who book time for their craft, making a serious investment in their art want access to the stuff they don't have at home. I'm with bgrotto in that at this point in my career I'm established enough in what I do that people who would want that kind of 'fast food production' would never book me in the first place. Case in point? This new single from Gillian Welch is simply beautiful... gorgeous tones... performances... and not a hint of anything "fake / plastic / AI" that really caught my ear on the radio last week. To me this? This is the standard. True art. And people who want this kinda thing? They aren't going to book superior drummer & easy keys... but real junk? They might come hang out for a week or two and make a record. But you know that. We all know that. AI ain't got nothing on this. And that's totally oK with me! |
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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 28, 2024 13:12:50 GMT -6
It would be nice if we got to a point where one could opt out of having their art used in AI trained programs.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jul 28, 2024 13:13:20 GMT -6
This is kinda weird, though. It seems like some of you fine folks are taking the thread in a different direction than I think the thread title is begging us to go.
I don't read John's title and think, "AI will never replace true art!!!"
I read John's title and think, "it's only a matter of time before the A-list players John is hiring for these productions won't need to be hired for as many jobs."
John has been very clear over the past few years that an increasing percentage of his income is made from what some might call "vanity projects": people who have day jobs and no expectation that music will supplant their current life work. (Let's be honest, just about all of us have worked on those kinds of projects. They can be very fulfilling sometimes.) John employs several top-shelf musicians in Nashville to play the instruments on these projects. If even 30% of those projects dry up due to the advance of AI, those musicians' bottom lines--as well as John's!--will be affected! We're talking about actual humans here! One of whom I consider a friend!
A year ago, it was easier to think AI would never be able to do this. A year later, John has actual proof that not only can it happen, it is actually showing up at his studio today!
Now I have little doubt that John will find a way to adapt - ALL of us will have to, one way or another. Some of us may even have to "adapt" by dropping out of the business altogether.
John, thanks for sharing. Troubling tides.
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Post by notneeson on Jul 28, 2024 13:14:53 GMT -6
Not what John was saying, I don’t think, but Music as Sonic Wallpaper is done as a business: it already was with the race to the bottom in the library business over the last decade.
Music as Art will prevail, but the commercial side is likely to contract further, and that does hurt people, for sure.
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Post by Dan on Jul 28, 2024 13:24:02 GMT -6
Who knows…maybe it will push people to be more original because AI CANT do that. What worries me is the ability for people to track their own stuff at a professional level. It will decimate the industry. The art of playing an instrument will eventually be lost and an artform completely stolen from us. Well, then maybe its time to invest in real instruments making real sounds that can be played by real people..? If everyone has access to the same fake drums, fake B3, fake guitar amps ... then what's the point of hiring anyone?! They can just as easily do the "paint by numbers" thing at leisure, at home in their PJ's without any pressure or someone being all up their face to say... hey, you could play that better lets do a few more takes. Like a real trusted producer would... that's intimidating. And suffice to say at that point? Nobody is chasing tone either. Fake 57 into a $200 interface is good enough. People who book time for their craft, making a serious investment in their art want access to the stuff they don't have at home. I'm with bgrotto in that at this point in my career I'm established enough in what I do that people who would want that kind of 'fast food production' would never book me in the first place. Case in point? This new single from Gillian Welch is simply beautiful... gorgeous tones... performances... and not a hint of anything "fake / plastic / AI" that really caught my ear on the radio last week. To me this? This is the standard. True art. And people who want this kinda thing? They aren't going to book superior drummer & easy keys... but real junk? They might come hang out for a week or two and make a record. But you know that. We all know that. AI ain't got nothing on this. And that's totally oK with me! And if they do take a shortcut, they want it hidden in the mix. Unless they’re garbage. There is a ton of garbage made without a care in the world. |
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Post by Dan on Jul 28, 2024 13:24:34 GMT -6
This is kinda weird, though. It seems like some of you fine folks are taking the thread in a different direction than I think the thread title is begging us to go. I don't read John's title and think, "AI will never replace true art!!!" I read John's title and think, "it's only a matter of time before the A-list players John is hiring for these productions won't need to be hired for as many jobs." John has been very clear over the past few years that an increasing percentage of his income is made from what some might call "vanity projects": people who have day jobs and no expectation that music will supplant their current life work. (Let's be honest, just about all of us have worked on those kinds of projects. They can be very fulfilling sometimes.) John employs several top-shelf musicians in Nashville to play the instruments on these projects. If even 30% of those projects dry up due to the advance of AI, those musicians' bottom lines--as well as John's!--will be affected! We're talking about actual humans here! One of whom I consider a friend! A year ago, it was easier to think AI would never be able to do this. A year later, John has actual proof that not only can it happen, it is actually showing up at his studio today! Now I have little doubt that John will find a way to adapt - ALL of us will have to, one way or another. Some of us may even have to "adapt" by dropping out of the business altogether. John, thanks for sharing. Troubling tides. everything in many genres is a vanity project at this point unless they’re a manufactured pop star of some sorts if they spend money on the sound they could be pocketing |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 13:32:58 GMT -6
Who knows…maybe it will push people to be more original because AI CANT do that. What worries me is the ability for people to track their own stuff at a professional level. It will decimate the industry. The art of playing an instrument will eventually be lost and an artform completely stolen from us. Well, then maybe its time to invest in real instruments making real sounds that can be played by real people..? If everyone has access to the same fake drums, fake B3, fake guitar amps ... then what's the point of hiring anyone?! They can just as easily do the "paint by numbers" thing at leisure, at home in their PJ's without any pressure or someone being all up their face to say... hey, you could play that better lets do a few more takes. Like a real trusted producer would... that's intimidating. And suffice to say at that point? Nobody is chasing tone either. Fake 57 into a $200 interface is good enough. People who book time for their craft, making a serious investment in their art want access to the stuff they don't have at home. I'm with bgrotto in that at this point in my career I'm established enough in what I do that people who would want that kind of 'fast food production' would never book me in the first place. Case in point? This new single from Gillian Welch is simply beautiful... gorgeous tones... performances... and not a hint of anything "fake / plastic / AI" that really caught my ear on the radio last week. To me this? This is the standard. True art. And people who want this kinda thing? They aren't going to book superior drummer & easy keys... but real junk? They might come hang out for a week or two and make a record. But you know that. We all know that. AI ain't got nothing on this. And that's totally oK with me! I mean…ok. I hope you’re right. I’m pretty gobsmacked by what I’ve heard from AI. Sure - right now it’s a bit hokey…but we’re literally not even a year into this stuff being available. How many people do you see doing Caligraphy? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 13:34:39 GMT -6
It would be nice if we got to a point where one could opt out of having their art used in AI trained programs. That would be nice. But I’m sure they’re paying these labels - or will be soon. Hell, as a songwriter, you can’t even opt your songs out of streaming unless you own everything. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 13:47:11 GMT -6
This is kinda weird, though. It seems like some of you fine folks are taking the thread in a different direction than I think the thread title is begging us to go. I don't read John's title and think, "AI will never replace true art!!!" I read John's title and think, "it's only a matter of time before the A-list players John is hiring for these productions won't need to be hired for as many jobs." John has been very clear over the past few years that an increasing percentage of his income is made from what some might call "vanity projects": people who have day jobs and no expectation that music will supplant their current life work. (Let's be honest, just about all of us have worked on those kinds of projects. They can be very fulfilling sometimes.) John employs several top-shelf musicians in Nashville to play the instruments on these projects. If even 30% of those projects dry up due to the advance of AI, those musicians' bottom lines--as well as John's!--will be affected! We're talking about actual humans here! One of whom I consider a friend! A year ago, it was easier to think AI would never be able to do this. A year later, John has actual proof that not only can it happen, it is actually showing up at his studio today! Now I have little doubt that John will find a way to adapt - ALL of us will have to, one way or another. Some of us may even have to "adapt" by dropping out of the business altogether. John, thanks for sharing. Troubling tides. Yeah - this is basically what I’m saying. Vanity projects make up about half of my business…and when it goes, it’s over for me. But I don’t think problems are as narrow as my particular issues. When this stuff becomes standard - and indistinguishable from the real thing (don’t lie, it’s close now) - making money from it will be over but for a few. Why would anyone pay for my experience when they can get it from a site for $9.99 per month? I make my money from being a producer and mixer. You’re hiring me for knowing what people are looking for, knowing the best players to hire, arranging, technical skill and mixing skill. That means 4 out of 5 of those things wouldn’t be needed - and the last one is coming. Like I said, I think it’s actually giving me an uptick of work here in the last few months. And hey - I’ll riding it out as long as I can. Maybe it will stay this way until I can retire…but we all know… |
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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 28, 2024 14:16:09 GMT -6
This is kinda weird, though. It seems like some of you fine folks are taking the thread in a different direction than I think the thread title is begging us to go. I don't read John's title and think, "AI will never replace true art!!!" I read John's title and think, "it's only a matter of time before the A-list players John is hiring for these productions won't need to be hired for as many jobs." John has been very clear over the past few years that an increasing percentage of his income is made from what some might call "vanity projects": people who have day jobs and no expectation that music will supplant their current life work. (Let's be honest, just about all of us have worked on those kinds of projects. They can be very fulfilling sometimes.) John employs several top-shelf musicians in Nashville to play the instruments on these projects. If even 30% of those projects dry up due to the advance of AI, those musicians' bottom lines--as well as John's!--will be affected! We're talking about actual humans here! One of whom I consider a friend! A year ago, it was easier to think AI would never be able to do this. A year later, John has actual proof that not only can it happen, it is actually showing up at his studio today! Now I have little doubt that John will find a way to adapt - ALL of us will have to, one way or another. Some of us may even have to "adapt" by dropping out of the business altogether. John, thanks for sharing. Troubling tides. Yeah - this is basically what I’m saying. Vanity projects make up about half of my business…and when it goes, it’s over for me. But I don’t think problems are as narrow as my particular issues. When this stuff becomes standard - and indistinguishable from the real thing (don’t lie, it’s close now) - making money from it will be over but for a few. Why would anyone pay for my experience when they can get it from a site for $9.99 per month? I make my money from being a producer and mixer. You’re hiring me for knowing what people are looking for, knowing the best players to hire, arranging, technical skill and mixing skill. That means 4 out of 5 of those things wouldn’t be needed - and the last one is coming. Like I said, I think it’s actually giving me an uptick of work here in the last few months. And hey - I’ll riding it out as long as I can. Maybe it will stay this way until I can retire…but we all know… It's sad. I always try to see the parallels between the music art forms and visual art. AI has much more quickly been able to imitate static imagery. It won a contest recently, I heard. Music and moving picture is harder, but it will get there and I think exponentially fast. Quantum computing comes along and it's really over. Replace the humans. However, with what AI can do with "paintings", has it replaced artists? It's a different thing, I know. I can't tell or not because I don't have the knowledge, but it seems like music as an art form has been commodity driven and cheapened at a rapid pace while people who are still into visual art still all want to go to museums to see the best paintings ever and buy local artists work etc. Why is it different? (If, in truth, it is, which it seems to be.). I went to the museum of the Shenandoah Valley a couple years ago to see all these original Norman Rockwell's and it was incredible. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 28, 2024 14:27:18 GMT -6
Yeah - this is basically what I’m saying. Vanity projects make up about half of my business…and when it goes, it’s over for me. But I don’t think problems are as narrow as my particular issues. When this stuff becomes standard - and indistinguishable from the real thing (don’t lie, it’s close now) - making money from it will be over but for a few. Why would anyone pay for my experience when they can get it from a site for $9.99 per month? I make my money from being a producer and mixer. You’re hiring me for knowing what people are looking for, knowing the best players to hire, arranging, technical skill and mixing skill. That means 4 out of 5 of those things wouldn’t be needed - and the last one is coming. Like I said, I think it’s actually giving me an uptick of work here in the last few months. And hey - I’ll riding it out as long as I can. Maybe it will stay this way until I can retire…but we all know… It's sad. I always try to see the parallels between the music art forms and visual art. AI has much more quickly been able to imitate static imagery. It won a contest recently, I heard. Music and moving picture is harder, but it will get there and I think exponentially fast. Quantum computing comes along and it's really over. Replace the humans. However, with what AI can do with "paintings", has it replaced artists? It's a different thing, I know. I can't tell or not because I don't have the knowledge, but it seems like music as an art form has been commodity driven and cheapened at a rapid pace while people who are still into visual art still all want to go to museums to see the best paintings ever and buy local artists work etc. Why is it different? (If, in truth, it is, which it seems to be.). I went to the museum of the Shenandoah Valley a couple years ago to see all these original Norman Rockwell's and it was incredible. AI is definitely going to decimate (if not completely control) the sync industry. Well, people that make a living off of it. A TV show that needs a bar band in the background ain’t paying $2000 to me anymore when they can get what they need in seconds for free. I’ve used the analogy before…but being a professional songwriter is like being a blacksmith in 1904. There are still blacksmiths 120 years later, but I’d venture to say about 98% less of them than in 1904. It’s also the attitude towards music that this affects too. What’s the value of music when EVERYONE can do it and it sound like a professional product? I really think the introduction of video games and DVDs in the early 2000s devalued music…or at least made it a “lesser” form of creative media. The same kids buying albums for $20 in 2001 were also buying video games and DVDs and probably felt like they were getting a much bigger bang for their buck…and in around 2008 ish music sales started taking a shit. Maybe we need to figure out some kind’ve dongle attached to listening to music. IDK what the answer is. And maybe it’s because I’m so incredibly jaded after 25 years in the industry…but if you think this won’t affect you because you don’t write “this kind of drivel” or “people will choose my material because of its obvious brilliance…” - then you’re naive as hell. My fear in all of this is losing music and songwriting as legitimate options to make a living in the next ten years. |
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