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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 29, 2024 21:54:55 GMT -6
It will make engineers choose other professions where they can feed their families. It will make producers obsolete. It will drive musicians back into jamming with friends / family on weekends instead of gigging out for less than $50 a nite. It will make arrangers into blacksmiths. It will make any but the most high end film composers dinosaurs. And it's going to do it at such amazing speeds that by the time we (you) figure it out, it will be too late to put the genie back in the bottle. Or......maybe it will just disappear?  It makes life worth living.  What other job will you ever say that about? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 29, 2024 21:58:16 GMT -6
I actually kinda love that melody. Reminiscent of “Louisiana Saturday Night.” |
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Post by damoongo on Jul 29, 2024 22:03:53 GMT -6
I keep saying: the folks who want cheap, instant AI gratification were never gonna spend the money nor the time to work with me in the first place. And nor would I wanna work with them. At least in terms of engineering, producing, and (albeit to a slightly lesser extent) mixing, I don’t really feel too much pressure to “compete” with AI. The paranoid thought is that it doesn't matter if folks who want cheap instant gratification won't work with you, it's that idea the people that DO currently work with you won't be able to anymore, because those other folks will flood the market with their dogshit, stealing market share from those who do it the "old fashioned way", leaving them unable to afford it. |
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Post by rowmat on Jul 29, 2024 22:08:43 GMT -6
I’m hearing from some that the advent of AI is nothing particularly new and every type of profession/work has changed with the introduction of new technology and those who don’t adapt will disappear and can only have themselves to blame.
While that’s been fundamentally true to some extent this isn’t analogous to the blacksmith worrying about the introduction of the Model T Ford.
If it was one could argue that the blacksmith needs to get with the program and start repairing/selling tires.
This is about the introduction of teleportation.
No horseshoes OR tires required!
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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 29, 2024 22:13:30 GMT -6
It makes life worth living. What other job will you ever say that about? That I could achieve at this point if ever? None. It would be about tolerating it for the money(as so many do). |
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 29, 2024 22:23:02 GMT -6
I keep saying: the folks who want cheap, instant AI gratification were never gonna spend the money nor the time to work with me in the first place. And nor would I wanna work with them. At least in terms of engineering, producing, and (albeit to a slightly lesser extent) mixing, I don’t really feel too much pressure to “compete” with AI. The paranoid thought is that it doesn't matter if folks who want cheap instant gratification won't work with you, it's that idea the people that DO currently work with you won't be able to anymore, because those other folks will flood the market with their dogshit, stealing market share from those who do it the "old fashioned way", leaving them unable to afford it. The market is already flooded, and has been for over a decade. |
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Post by damoongo on Jul 29, 2024 22:31:06 GMT -6
The paranoid thought is that it doesn't matter if folks who want cheap instant gratification won't work with you, it's that idea the people that DO currently work with you won't be able to anymore, because those other folks will flood the market with their dogshit, stealing market share from those who do it the "old fashioned way", leaving them unable to afford it. The market is already flooded, and has been for over a decade. This might redefine “flood”. (By the way, I don’t think it plays out this way. I think helping making real music will actually thrive.) |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 29, 2024 22:34:12 GMT -6
What other job will you ever say that about? That I could achieve at this point if ever? None. It would be about tolerating it for the money(as so many do). Oh I definitely understand that struggle. I’m on the ass end of it, so it’s too late for me lol. My BIL is in data analytics and just takes money in. |
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Post by jmoose on Jul 29, 2024 23:36:44 GMT -6
I’m hearing from some that the advent of AI is nothing particularly new and every type of profession/work has changed with the introduction of new technology and those who don’t adapt will disappear and can only have themselves to blame. While that’s been fundamentally true to some extent this isn’t analogous to the blacksmith worrying about the introduction of the Model T Ford. If it was one could argue that the blacksmith needs to get with the program and start repairing/selling tires. This is about the introduction of teleportation. No horseshoes OR tires required! Bingo! We have a winner! About 20 years ago I picked up a book called "Playback" by Mark Coleman - www.amazon.com/Playback-Victrola-Years-Music-Machines/dp/0306813904Roughly - Covers 100 odd years of music technology & development... and how the disruptive things created new things... You know what was really disruptive in the late 1800's? What was music then? For most people if you wanted to hear music in the old west days you'd go to a saloon where there's a guy (or gal) playing piano and have a drink. Then the big new, fancy pants tech came along & put all those piano players out of a gig... the player piano & its ROLLS had been invented! Now you don't need that no good, stinky, money grubbin whisky drinkin piano player around anymore that thing plays itself! Then recorded music thew all that away... the Victrola & Edison cylinders... wire recorders... analog tape... At the very, very core of it the player piano roll & MIDI are basically doing the same job. As a wise philosopher once said meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Great book. |
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Post by ragan on Jul 29, 2024 23:44:24 GMT -6
I'm sympathetic to the notion that we've seen many disruptions in medium/technology, which have always re-shaped the landscape of how people access/consume things.
This is fundamentally different.
This is like the printing press...if the printing press also wrote the books.
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Post by theshea on Jul 30, 2024 0:10:47 GMT -6
we all did and do the same AI does: we/i studied the beatles/stones/etc. to learn how to write our own music. we got feed from the songs of the past. we just added our own personal touch and creativity. i believe that AI will learn that too. such as some chaos variants like „every 2-3 tries break the rules and do this or that“. i really believe its all programmable for the tec. so nothing new under the sun. AI does what humans do. just quicker and cheaper.
another point: the market is oversaturated. be it songwriter, artists, mixers, producers … most of them/us wouldn‘t have the chance to live from music in the 70/80‘s. we wouldn‘t have toured or made a life as a mixer/producer etc. record companies wouldn’t have given a record deal to 99% of people who make and publish music today. me included. so why should we do it today and pretend to make money with music? too many people want to live from music … not possible.
the bad bad stuff obviously is, that AI will also eat away a big market of pro‘s which should deserve to make a decent living. a really BIG part.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 30, 2024 1:06:59 GMT -6
Oh! One last thing. Promise. All that yak about radio? Some people, some artists don't care much. And yet thrive & survive. Mostly by word of mouth. Like it used to be. Yes. There is an alternative..? Love this band. Love this album. Waited for years for it to drop... No fake plastic guitars... rubber drums... not even drum samples they say. Love the video too. Loud amps save lives! (enjoy?) Hear hear. I’ve rarely worked in a world where radio matters. Magnetic Fields, Dresden Dolls, Blood for Blood, hell…Weird Al (that record was #1 and won a Grammy btw). Punk rock, hardcore, weird art rock….the shit I really care about…it was never meant for radio, and it needn’t. With exception for maybe Weird Al (though holy shit he is so good live), these artists draw people via their live shows, and AI is not about to replace that. The shit AI does….thats not what I do, and it’s not what my clients do. And most importantly, it’s not what their audiences want. I guess my sympathies for the highest ends of the record industry are a bit limited, because it’s a space that in my professional lifetime I’ve never much cared about (or, frankly, for), and it’s been endangered for so damn long I’ve long since come to terms with the notion that it will soon become extinct (that kinda talk was all the rage at music school at the turn of the century…it’s actually kinda funny how the cycle continues just as I find myself getting back into the academic waters now as a teacher). anywho, jmoose we should be friends. I like the cut of yer jib. That’s because you’re an accomplished chef. So what, they’ve found another way to make “Pot Noodles” …. just add hot water and wait 30 seconds. You keep cooking bgrotto, there’s plenty of people out there that still love delicious food. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 30, 2024 9:42:49 GMT -6
I’m hearing from some that the advent of AI is nothing particularly new and every type of profession/work has changed with the introduction of new technology and those who don’t adapt will disappear and can only have themselves to blame. While that’s been fundamentally true to some extent this isn’t analogous to the blacksmith worrying about the introduction of the Model T Ford. If it was one could argue that the blacksmith needs to get with the program and start repairing/selling tires. This is about the introduction of teleportation. No horseshoes OR tires required! Bingo! We have a winner! About 20 years ago I picked up a book called "Playback" by Mark Coleman - www.amazon.com/Playback-Victrola-Years-Music-Machines/dp/0306813904Roughly - Covers 100 odd years of music technology & development... and how the disruptive things created new things... You know what was really disruptive in the late 1800's? What was music then? For most people if you wanted to hear music in the old west days you'd go to a saloon where there's a guy (or gal) playing piano and have a drink. Then the big new, fancy pants tech came along & put all those piano players out of a gig... the player piano & its ROLLS had been invented! Now you don't need that no good, stinky, money grubbin whisky drinkin piano player around anymore that thing plays itself! Then recorded music thew all that away... the Victrola & Edison cylinders... wire recorders... analog tape... At the very, very core of it the player piano roll & MIDI are basically doing the same job. As a wise philosopher once said meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Great book. My kind of book. Just purchased for Kindle. Doing my part to kill the print publishing industry, you know... in the spirit of the thread! |
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Post by ml on Jul 30, 2024 9:45:14 GMT -6
Imagine if the rise of AI music inspires a wave of musicians to return to purely analog workflows. No plugins, no digital shortcuts, just raw talent captured on tape. Now that would make a real statement. Will the end user really care? Doubt it. But there seems to be a desire for analog in a digital world. The kids seem to like mechanical things like film cameras, mechanical watches, records, and vintage tech because they offer a tangible, authentic experience that stands out in our increasingly virtual world.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 30, 2024 9:51:19 GMT -6
Imagine if the rise of AI music inspires a wave of musicians to return to purely analog workflows. No plugins, no digital shortcuts, just raw talent captured on tape. Now that would make a real statement. Will the end user really care? Doubt it. But there seems to be a desire for analog in a digital world. The kids seem to like mechanical things like film cameras, mechanical watches, records, and vintage tech because they offer a tangible, authentic experience that stands out in our increasingly virtual world. That's my prediction. And the food analogy is a good one. The rise of fake foods in the 70's, 80's, 90's spurred the rise of the organic food movement, the resurgence of the home garden/farmer's market movement, and the farm-to-table restaurant movement. People still eat processed food, but they know it's processed food just by the taste (took a generation to learn and care) and they choose when they want real food. I think that is the closest analogy for music. AI the aural equivalent of franken-foods. Yes, it looks like a potato chip. It smells like a potato chip. It kind of tastes like one. But then when you have a basket of deep fried potato chips straight out of the lard fryer you realize... THAT'S a potato chip. So you still eat Lays when it's dropped on your lap, but you know what a real chip tastes like. People will consume AI created music. But we'll learn what the difference is and it will be kind of looked down on as a cheap and unhealthy option (to stretch the metaphor). Problem is that could take 20 or 30 years for that arc to complete. Another 10 years of advancement, and then 10 years to figure out we don't like it, and then 10 years for the replacement (the organic music movement let's call it) to re-take the market. Hey, at that pace I'll only be 70! Just in time to be the sage old mentor for the organic music hipsters. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 30, 2024 10:04:22 GMT -6
I hope you guys are right...and I'm positive AI WILL spur that. But what will it pay? Sure, there will be starving artists that don't want anything but to make music and light up a bowl...or live in a van and tour around the country. That's not what I want. We fought 100 years to supposedly protect songwriting and intellectual property, and this will decimate it. Sure - adapt. There a LOTS of "existential issues" that adaptation should be the answer to, too.
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Post by notneeson on Jul 30, 2024 10:20:42 GMT -6
I’m hearing from some that the advent of AI is nothing particularly new and every type of profession/work has changed with the introduction of new technology and those who don’t adapt will disappear and can only have themselves to blame. While that’s been fundamentally true to some extent this isn’t analogous to the blacksmith worrying about the introduction of the Model T Ford. If it was one could argue that the blacksmith needs to get with the program and start repairing/selling tires. This is about the introduction of teleportation. No horseshoes OR tires required! Bingo! We have a winner! About 20 years ago I picked up a book called "Playback" by Mark Coleman - www.amazon.com/Playback-Victrola-Years-Music-Machines/dp/0306813904Roughly - Covers 100 odd years of music technology & development... and how the disruptive things created new things... You know what was really disruptive in the late 1800's? What was music then? For most people if you wanted to hear music in the old west days you'd go to a saloon where there's a guy (or gal) playing piano and have a drink. Then the big new, fancy pants tech came along & put all those piano players out of a gig... the player piano & its ROLLS had been invented! Now you don't need that no good, stinky, money grubbin whisky drinkin piano player around anymore that thing plays itself! Then recorded music thew all that away... the Victrola & Edison cylinders... wire recorders... analog tape... At the very, very core of it the player piano roll & MIDI are basically doing the same job. As a wise philosopher once said meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Great book. And actually books are no different, the invention of the printing press decimated rich oral traditions and incredible feats of rote memory. Technology does change us. We know this. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 30, 2024 10:29:12 GMT -6
I hope you guys are right...and I'm positive AI WILL spur that. But what will it pay? No doubt. But look at history..... To a degree : CD's killed album artwork. Downloads killed CD's. Streaming killed downloads. Free streaming is killing paid streaming. (Everyone wants free) Home studios killed big rooms renting out at $1500-2200 per day. DAWS killed tape, studios and traditional ways of recording. Laptops and plugins killed (or are killing) off big DAW systems. And on and on. It's the nature of downward progression. It's not an UPWARD progression is it? And here's the catch - there never was huge bank for musicians, so each of the above degradations of the "industry" is making things more and more difficult to make a living for the average musician. (And yeah, yeah, I know each of us is FAR above "average". ). But even if AI music captures only 30% of all music productions (and it's going to take far more than that), it's problematic downstream negatives for average musicians will more than kill off the industry for all but the most insanely lucky. Case in point : where are all those "average" studio musicians who made a living doing sessions 15 years ago now? They are not doing sessions for a living - that's for sure. I've told this story before - when I was a kid and joined the Musicians Union Local 47 (Hollywood / LA) about 40+ years ago, only a small percentage of "professional / union" musicians made their ENTIRE living off of music. Something like 3-5%. Fast forward 40 years. At this point (as is obvious from many posts above), it's a minute fraction of 1% that earn their living entirely off of music. I am in that group, and consider myself BEYOND insanely lucky. But for the next generation, the odds will be somewhere between winning the lottery and impossible due to MANY market factors - AI not being the least. It was a good run while it lasted.... Again, I feel lucky to have hit the timetable of being able to earn a full-time living in music just about dead on. Best of luck to all the younger guys!!!!! |
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Post by christopher on Jul 30, 2024 11:14:12 GMT -6
Apple wins all of those, from making the CD image and cover to home studio laptop
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Post by ragan on Jul 30, 2024 11:16:37 GMT -6
Bingo! We have a winner! About 20 years ago I picked up a book called "Playback" by Mark Coleman - www.amazon.com/Playback-Victrola-Years-Music-Machines/dp/0306813904Roughly - Covers 100 odd years of music technology & development... and how the disruptive things created new things... You know what was really disruptive in the late 1800's? What was music then? For most people if you wanted to hear music in the old west days you'd go to a saloon where there's a guy (or gal) playing piano and have a drink. Then the big new, fancy pants tech came along & put all those piano players out of a gig... the player piano & its ROLLS had been invented! Now you don't need that no good, stinky, money grubbin whisky drinkin piano player around anymore that thing plays itself! Then recorded music thew all that away... the Victrola & Edison cylinders... wire recorders... analog tape... At the very, very core of it the player piano roll & MIDI are basically doing the same job. As a wise philosopher once said meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Great book. And actually books are no different, the invention of the printing press decimated rich oral traditions and incredible feats of rote memory. Technology does change us. We know this. But again, this analogy only works if the printing press was also writing the books. |
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 30, 2024 11:20:59 GMT -6
Imagine if the rise of AI music inspires a wave of musicians to return to purely analog workflows. No plugins, no digital shortcuts, just raw talent captured on tape. Now that would make a real statement. Will the end user really care? Doubt it. But there seems to be a desire for analog in a digital world. The kids seem to like mechanical things like film cameras, mechanical watches, records, and vintage tech because they offer a tangible, authentic experience that stands out in our increasingly virtual world. In my experience, they like it till they hear how much more it’s going to cost. I’ve (inadvertently) talked scores of clients out of tracking to tape by explaining the workflow. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 30, 2024 11:47:29 GMT -6
I hope you guys are right...and I'm positive AI WILL spur that. But what will it pay? No doubt. But look at history..... To a degree : CD's killed album artwork. Downloads killed CD's. Streaming killed downloads. Free streaming is killing paid streaming. (Everyone wants free) Home studios killed big rooms renting out at $1500-2200 per day. DAWS killed tape, studios and traditional ways of recording. Laptops and plugins killed (or are killing) off big DAW systems. And on and on. It's the nature of downward progression. It's not an UPWARD progression is it? And here's the catch - there never was huge bank for musicians, so each of the above degradations of the "industry" is making things more and more difficult to make a living for the average musician. (And yeah, yeah, I know each of us is FAR above "average". ). But even if AI music captures only 30% of all music productions (and it's going to take far more than that), it's problematic downstream negatives for average musicians will more than kill off the industry for all but the most insanely lucky. Case in point : where are all those "average" studio musicians who made a living doing sessions 15 years ago now? They are not doing sessions for a living - that's for sure. I've told this story before - when I was a kid and joined the Musicians Union Local 47 (Hollywood / LA) about 40+ years ago, only a small percentage of "professional / union" musicians made their ENTIRE living off of music. Something like 3-5%. Fast forward 40 years. At this point (as is obvious from many posts above), it's a minute fraction of 1% that earn their living entirely off of music. I am in that group, and consider myself BEYOND insanely lucky. But for the next generation, the odds will be somewhere between winning the lottery and impossible due to MANY market factors - AI not being the least. It was a good run while it lasted.... Again, I feel lucky to have hit the timetable of being able to earn a full-time living in music just about dead on. Best of luck to all the younger guys!!!!! As a young-ish guitarist and engineer, I'm trying to see the bright side of getting work outside of music. There are a lot of stupid drawbacks to doing music pro for all its greatness. I'm imagining being able to turn down any jazz gig or mixing gig I want because it smells like a PITA. Gotta try to see the bright side. But I'll never have the skill of a Howard Roberts type(talent aside) who can practice all day and gig 6 nights a week. That makes you so sharp. I have 8 jazz gigs in August and I am incredibly lucky for that. Most have one or two, I think. |
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Post by OtisGreying on Jul 30, 2024 16:56:31 GMT -6
Ai won’t replace artists though. And artists with a budget will prefer using humans to collaborate with rather than AI. I think AI really only threatens the low-budget music/low-priority background music.
Generic commercials, start up companies looking for music. And artists that are almost broke and can’t afford to work with someone real. That’s where I see jobs being lost. Which is sad cause those jobs are important.
But everything I’ve listened to from AI sounded completely uninteresting. So I really don’t see how that’s a threat to anyone with ambition to make something interesting.
I tried typing in 1970s 1980s piano love song on Suno and could not get a result that sounded anything like that era. It all sounded like pop-radio from 2016, and it was all super boring.
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Post by rowmat on Jul 30, 2024 17:34:47 GMT -6
Imagine if the rise of AI music inspires a wave of musicians to return to purely analog workflows. No plugins, no digital shortcuts, just raw talent captured on tape. Now that would make a real statement. Will the end user really care? Doubt it. But there seems to be a desire for analog in a digital world. The kids seem to like mechanical things like film cameras, mechanical watches, records, and vintage tech because they offer a tangible, authentic experience that stands out in our increasingly virtual world. Bring back the Edison wax cylinder! Actually a band released an album on an Edison wax cylinder about ten years ago. I don’t think they broke any sales records though. One of our clients launched his album initially exclusively on cassette only. His reasoning was because he does “stupid shit”. “…The kids that seem to like mechanical things like film cameras, mechanical watches, records, and vintage tech…” are mostly inspired by TikTok, Instagram etc. because of the coolness factor and hipster ‘street cred’ they receive in the form of likes. So it’s ultimately social media that is influencing them. Fujifilm’s X100V retro designed digital camera went viral after some TikTok influencer gushed over it and it instantly became unobtanium due to the demand with backorders for new cameras blowing out to more than six months and second hand cameras selling for nearly double the retail price on eBay. The new model X100VI automatically went into backorder status since its release with ETA’s of 6 months to 1 year. Those who managed to get hold of an X100 predominantly posted photos of the just the camera itself or selfies with it to social media rather than photos they actually took using the camera. Think of people buying vinyl who don’t have a turntable and then posting selfies of themselves with the album. Same thing. Pentax recently released a half frame film camera targeting the Insta/TikTok crowd. Rollei are about to also release a 35mm compact film camera and Leica reissued their M6 a few years ago. Whether this becomes a substantial, sustainable ‘everything is old is new again’ remains to be seen but the market is likely to be pretty small overall in comparison to the ‘virtual’ one. But the NUMBER ONE driver behind most people’s purchasing decisions today IS social media. That’s why data is the most valuable commodity to big tech and corporations and that can be used to almost instantaneously shift people’s decision making on a dime. So the question is how do ‘we’ as a group go about influencing our prospective clients to use our services rather than some AI algorithm? That’s the question. What’s the answer? |
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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 30, 2024 18:07:20 GMT -6
Imagine if the rise of AI music inspires a wave of musicians to return to purely analog workflows. No plugins, no digital shortcuts, just raw talent captured on tape. Now that would make a real statement. Will the end user really care? Doubt it. But there seems to be a desire for analog in a digital world. The kids seem to like mechanical things like film cameras, mechanical watches, records, and vintage tech because they offer a tangible, authentic experience that stands out in our increasingly virtual world. Bring back the Edison wax cylinder! Actually a band released an album on an Edison wax cylinder about ten years ago. I don’t think they broke any sales records though. One of our clients launched his album initially exclusively on cassette only. His reasoning was because he does “stupid shit”. “…The kids that seem to like mechanical things like film cameras, mechanical watches, records, and vintage tech…” are mostly inspired by TikTok, Instagram etc. because of the coolness factor and hipster ‘street cred’ they receive in the form of likes. So it’s ultimately social media that is influencing them. Fujifilm’s X100V retro designed digital camera went viral after some TikTok influencer gushed over it and it instantly became unobtanium due to the demand with backorders for new cameras blowing out to more than six months and second hand cameras selling for nearly double the retail price on eBay. The new model X100VI automatically went into backorder status since its release with ETA’s of 6 months to 1 year. Those who managed to get hold of an X100 predominantly posted photos of the just the camera itself or selfies with it to social media rather than photos they actually took using the camera. Think of people buying vinyl who don’t have a turntable and then posting selfies of themselves with the album. Same thing. Pentax recently released a half frame film camera targeting the Insta/TikTok crowd. Rollei are about to also release a 35mm compact film camera and Leica reissued their M6 a few years ago. Whether this becomes a substantial, sustainable ‘everything is old is new again’ remains to be seen but the market is likely to be pretty small overall in comparison to the ‘virtual’ one. But the NUMBER ONE driver behind most people’s purchasing decisions today IS social media. That’s why data is the most valuable commodity to big tech and corporations and that can be used to almost instantaneously shift people’s decision making on a dime. So the question is how do ‘we’ as a group go about influencing our prospective clients to use our services rather than some AI algorithm? That’s the question. What’s the answer? You do the same thing that you do to an intelligent being that you want to radicalize. You feed it BS. Destroy it by feeding it garbage. I will resolve to upload as much musical nonsense as possible to ruin the algorithm. |
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