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Post by bluesholyman on Jul 10, 2024 7:15:42 GMT -6
I don't have space, talent, or a patient enough wife for a real drumset at home to record, so something like Superior Drummer looks like a win. I'd like it to sound as realistic as possible and I've even heard some songs that make albums are actually using it, but I have no viable supporting reference for that.
Just wanted to get y'alls take on Superior Drummer or something else before I go dropping four benjamins on this....
Thanks,
Carvel
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Post by Dan on Jul 10, 2024 7:28:42 GMT -6
The samples are rawer than other VSTi kits but the presets are garbage.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 10, 2024 7:56:15 GMT -6
I don't have space, talent, or a patient enough wife for a real drumset at home to record, so something like Superior Drummer looks like a win. I'd like it to sound as realistic as possible and I've even heard some songs that make albums are actually using it, but I have no viable supporting reference for that. Just wanted to get y'alls take on Superior Drummer or something else before I go dropping four benjamins on this.... Thanks, Carvel It’s all about how you create the part. I have a Roland TD-50x drum kit and if I record the MIDI performance (I monitor the Roland module so no latency) then I post trigger SD3 and the results are FANTASTIC!! I love the latest kits Hit Maker Rooms of Hansa (my absolute favourite) Decades Legends of Rock Brilliant sample sets and you can mix them like real drums. |
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Post by ragan on Jul 10, 2024 8:06:52 GMT -6
I spent a few years with it (and V Drums) and I think it’s the best thing going in virtual drums, by a long shot.
But, the artificialness that it does have started sticking out (or rather, not sticking out enough, since I think its weakness is sounding flat and two dimensional) for me and I went back to real drums.
But, if you have to use virtual drums, I think it’s the best thing.
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Post by bluesholyman on Jul 10, 2024 8:27:04 GMT -6
The samples are rawer than other VSTi kits but the presets are garbage. By rawer, I am hearing "less processed" and more usable for mixing in that sense. I don't have space, talent, or a patient enough wife for a real drumset at home to record, so something like Superior Drummer looks like a win. I'd like it to sound as realistic as possible and I've even heard some songs that make albums are actually using it, but I have no viable supporting reference for that. Just wanted to get y'alls take on Superior Drummer or something else before I go dropping four benjamins on this.... Thanks, Carvel It’s all about how you create the part. I have a Roland TD-50x drum kit and if I record the MIDI performance (I monitor the Roland module so no latency) then I post trigger SD3 and the results are FANTASTIC!! I love the latest kits Hit Maker Rooms of Hansa (my absolute favourite) Decades Legends of Rock Brilliant sample sets and you can mix them like real drums. the performance is certainly something of interest which for me will be limited to MIDI or some sort of virtual drummer like in Apple Logic or whatever SD3 offers. I spent a few years with it (and V Drums) and I think it’s the best thing going in virtual drums, by a long shot. But, the artificialness that it does have started sticking out (or rather, not sticking out enough, since I think its weakness is sounding flat and two dimensional) for me and I went back to real drums. But, if you have to use virtual drums, I think it’s the best thing. thanks - yeah, I am limited to virtual drums for now. I guess the future [for me] is V-drums and samples, but a ways away from that at the moment. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 10, 2024 9:30:02 GMT -6
I spent a few years with it (and V Drums) and I think it’s the best thing going in virtual drums, by a long shot. But, the artificialness that it does have started sticking out (or rather, not sticking out enough, since I think its weakness is sounding flat and two dimensional) for me and I went back to real drums. But, if you have to use virtual drums, I think it’s the best thing. Agree with this. Put it this way, I’ve never preferred SD to the real thing…Of course, that’s me playing them. I’ve wondered if you gave a midi set to a real pro drummer if it would sound pretty indistinguishable. Idk. I’m actually going to be working on a project where we’re gonna track with a super nice $6k DW midi kit. Looking forward to seeing how that will come out. (I think) |
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Post by ragan on Jul 10, 2024 9:43:34 GMT -6
I spent a few years with it (and V Drums) and I think it’s the best thing going in virtual drums, by a long shot. But, the artificialness that it does have started sticking out (or rather, not sticking out enough, since I think its weakness is sounding flat and two dimensional) for me and I went back to real drums. But, if you have to use virtual drums, I think it’s the best thing. Agree with this. Put it this way, I’ve never preferred SD to the real thing…Of course, that’s me playing them. I’ve wondered if you gave a midi set to a real pro drummer if it would sound pretty indistinguishable. Idk. I’m actually going to be working on a project where we’re gonna track with a super nice $6k DW midi kit. Looking forward to seeing how that will come out. (I think) Yeah I think you can get the performance translated to MIDI very well. Enough to not matter. It’s just the sonics that feel (to me) like they are stuck behind a realism wall. There’s a flatness (to me). But, of the options for virtual drums, I think it’s the best. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 10, 2024 10:14:28 GMT -6
Agree with this. Put it this way, I’ve never preferred SD to the real thing…Of course, that’s me playing them. I’ve wondered if you gave a midi set to a real pro drummer if it would sound pretty indistinguishable. Idk. I’m actually going to be working on a project where we’re gonna track with a super nice $6k DW midi kit. Looking forward to seeing how that will come out. (I think) Yeah I think you can get the performance translated to MIDI very well. Enough to not matter. It’s just the sonics that feel (to me) like they are stuck behind a realism wall. There’s a flatness (to me). But, of the options for virtual drums, I think it’s the best. Did you say you used a real HH and cymbals? For whatever reason, hat seems like a big piece of the issue |
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Post by Ward on Jul 10, 2024 10:14:53 GMT -6
It's great for demoes but . . . it's a little saccharine. It's not hard to tell it's fake when you get to the end of the song and the tuning hasn't moved a single cent. That's the part that doesn't sit right with most guys.
When you're using sample replacement on close mics, you still have the natural ambiance of the entire kit in the overheads, ride, hats and spot mics. So it doesn't sound as fake.
But if I had no facility for recording real drums, using an electronic set and using the SD samples would certainly get me 75% of the way there. Best of luck Carvel!
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Post by bluesholyman on Jul 10, 2024 10:27:46 GMT -6
It's great for demoes but . . . it's a little saccharine. It's not hard to tell it's fake when you get to the end of the song and the tuning hasn't moved a single cent. That's the part that doesn't sit right with most guys. When you're using sample replacement on close mics, you still have the natural ambiance of the entire kit in the overheads, ride, hats and spot mics. So it doesn't sound as fake. But if I had no facility for recording real drums, using an electronic set and using the SD samples would certainly get me 75% of the way there. Best of luck Carvel! It is indeed for demo's - wanting better than what I can get from the basic DAW stuff one usually gets. I have a Yamaha Finger Drum Pad, which is as close to a "virtual drum set" as I am going to get right now. But, I am still not great with that. All part of the fun I suppose, but in the mean time, need sauce from a can until I can blend my own tomatoes.... |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 10, 2024 10:40:38 GMT -6
Agree with this. Put it this way, I’ve never preferred SD to the real thing…Of course, that’s me playing them. I’ve wondered if you gave a midi set to a real pro drummer if it would sound pretty indistinguishable. Idk. I’m actually going to be working on a project where we’re gonna track with a super nice $6k DW midi kit. Looking forward to seeing how that will come out. (I think) Yeah I think you can get the performance translated to MIDI very well. Enough to not matter. It’s just the sonics that feel (to me) like they are stuck behind a realism wall. There’s a flatness (to me). But, of the options for virtual drums, I think it’s the best. I love real drums - played professional as a session/ live drummer for a few decades! But I have to say, using my big E Kit - Drum Tec full size shells and Roland TD50X system - digital snare - digital ride - digital hihiat the feel and resulting mix after processing once in a finished mix is fantastic and sounds like a brilliantly recording drum kit to my ears. I don't see any difference to this and VI keys and Fractal Axe amps. That said, for a jazz trio I'm not convinced it would be good enough in that setting. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 10, 2024 10:54:56 GMT -6
It's great for demoes but . . . it's a little saccharine. It's not hard to tell it's fake when you get to the end of the song and the tuning hasn't moved a single cent. That's the part that doesn't sit right with most guys. When you're using sample replacement on close mics, you still have the natural ambiance of the entire kit in the overheads, ride, hats and spot mics. So it doesn't sound as fake. But if I had no facility for recording real drums, using an electronic set and using the SD samples would certainly get me 75% of the way there. Best of luck Carvel! I'm not sure I've tried to use one with every sound sample loaded. like a 6000 mb kit or whatever...Even if not used very audibly - I wonder if all those different spaces give it more realism? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 10, 2024 10:58:12 GMT -6
Yeah I think you can get the performance translated to MIDI very well. Enough to not matter. It’s just the sonics that feel (to me) like they are stuck behind a realism wall. There’s a flatness (to me). But, of the options for virtual drums, I think it’s the best. I love real drums - played professional as a session/ live drummer for a few decades! But I have to say, using my big E Kit - Drum Tec full size shells and Roland TD50X system - digital snare - digital ride - digital hihiat the feel and resulting mix after processing once in a finished mix is fantastic and sounds like a brilliantly recording drum kit to my ears. I don't see any difference to this and VI keys and Fractal Axe amps. That said, for a jazz trio I'm not convinced it would be good enough in that setting. I think there's a huge difference in modelers and fake drums. One is a recording of a physical interaction(s at one time) and how it resonates in a room, the guitar is a close miked representation of an electrical process for the most part. IMO, the guitar thing is much easier to pass with. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 10, 2024 10:59:26 GMT -6
But yeah - I agree. I'd rather have real amps and real keys. All of that stuff adding up is what seems to make the difference. As Ragan said - it can jut end up being kind've flat.
That being said...I really want some more SDX's. For what reason, I'm not particularly sure.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 10, 2024 11:46:20 GMT -6
When I have a chance I'll post some "Rooms of Hansa" raw drums of me letting loose on my big E Drum Kit.
I get the analogy to Roland sounds .... they are "modelled" drums and to my ears don't sound great.
The Rooms of Hansa SDX are samples of actual drums - so it's not fake as such.
I honestly find it to be to "pop rock" drums that which my modelled amps are to my tube amps in the same setting.
But as ever, it's audio, it's art, it's highly subjective.
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Post by bluesholyman on Jul 10, 2024 12:18:20 GMT -6
I love real drums - played professional as a session/ live drummer for a few decades! But I have to say, using my big E Kit - Drum Tec full size shells and Roland TD50X system - digital snare - digital ride - digital hihiat the feel and resulting mix after processing once in a finished mix is fantastic and sounds like a brilliantly recording drum kit to my ears. I don't see any difference to this and VI keys and Fractal Axe amps. That said, for a jazz trio I'm not convinced it would be good enough in that setting. I think there's a huge difference in modelers and fake drums. One is a recording of a physical interaction(s at one time) and how it resonates in a room, the guitar is a close miked representation of an electrical process for the most part. IMO, the guitar thing is much easier to pass with. I am not totally convinced of modelers on guitar and while I would agree it a less complex "system" than recording drums, probably because the room is part of the system with drums, and seldom as much with guitar, I still prefer a tube amp to a modeler. In the mix, far less obvious, but playing, immensely apparent. I have not had a chance to try a Kemper or a Neural DSP which I have heard get closer than anything else, so my perception is based on admittedly limited information. Now my piano samples, the Garritan CFX, are outstanding. Eyes closed, I'd swear I'm next to a real piano. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 10, 2024 12:19:24 GMT -6
When I have a chance I'll post some "Rooms of Hansa" raw drums of me letting loose on my big E Drum Kit. I get the analogy to Roland sounds .... they are "modelled" drums and to my ears don't sound great. The Rooms of Hansa SDX are samples of actual drums - so it's not fake as such. I honestly find it to be to "pop rock" drums that which my modelled amps are to my tube amps in the same setting. But as ever, it's audio, it's art, it's highly subjective. I’m familiar. I own Hansa. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 10, 2024 12:20:02 GMT -6
I think there's a huge difference in modelers and fake drums. One is a recording of a physical interaction(s at one time) and how it resonates in a room, the guitar is a close miked representation of an electrical process for the most part. IMO, the guitar thing is much easier to pass with. I am not totally convinced of modelers on guitar and while I would agree it a less complex "system" than recording drums, probably because the room is part of the system with drums, and seldom as much with guitar, I still prefer a tube amp to a modeler. In the mix, far less obvious, but playing, immensely apparent. I have not had a chance to try a Kemper or a Neural DSP which I have heard get closer than anything else, so my perception is based on admittedly limited information. If you don’t like modelers, then you can skip the drums. |
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Post by bluesholyman on Jul 10, 2024 12:21:18 GMT -6
I am not totally convinced of modelers on guitar and while I would agree it a less complex "system" than recording drums, probably because the room is part of the system with drums, and seldom as much with guitar, I still prefer a tube amp to a modeler. In the mix, far less obvious, but playing, immensely apparent. I have not had a chance to try a Kemper or a Neural DSP which I have heard get closer than anything else, so my perception is based on admittedly limited information. If you don’t like modelers, then you can skip the drums. My wallet says I can't...it it often overrules my ears.... Funny story - I was in Gruhns shopping for an acoustic, and the guy helping me asked my budget and then lined up a bunch of acoustic around my budget and had me play through them, asking what I thought of each. At the end of it, he said "I can't sell you a guitar. Your wallet says X but your ears say Y - you need to buy a guitar when you have Y, because you won't be happy otherwise." Some of the best advice I ever got. Sadly, fake drums will have to do for now because real ones are a bridge too far...for the time being.... |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 10, 2024 12:22:59 GMT -6
I think there's a huge difference in modelers and fake drums. One is a recording of a physical interaction(s at one time) and how it resonates in a room, the guitar is a close miked representation of an electrical process for the most part. IMO, the guitar thing is much easier to pass with. I am not totally convinced of modelers on guitar and while I would agree it a less complex "system" than recording drums, probably because the room is part of the system with drums, and seldom as much with guitar, I still prefer a tube amp to a modeler. In the mix, far less obvious, but playing, immensely apparent. I have not had a chance to try a Kemper or a Neural DSP which I have heard get closer than anything else, so my perception is based on admittedly limited information. I think the Fractal Axe FX 3 is the one that really nails the silent guitar recording paradigm. I've been mightily impressed with it and I'm considering getting one as these days cranking my tube amps isn't possible. And an AXF3 is a better solution than a tube amp into a load box with IR's which is a bit spongy and kinda sonically messed up. My favourite is definitely micing a tube amp and cab at gig level volume - sounds amazing - but when you can't do that - things get tricky. |
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Post by FM77 on Jul 10, 2024 14:02:28 GMT -6
Playing devils advocate here - I have fooled/convinced musicians, drummers, skilled engineers and experienced producers with sampled drums and programming. Even 18 + years ago with the original BFD.
It requires great care in velocity, randomness and feel, but it is, absolutely possible and satisfying when done well. It is a labor of love though if you want album/human played quality.
Genre, style, intent and approach are the most relevant aspect of the process in order to be convincing. Understated is best, IMO.
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Post by bossanova on Jul 10, 2024 14:06:50 GMT -6
Generally, the attempts I've heard at realistically modeling (as opposed to sampling) acoustic drums don't hold up.
I think MODO is the only one that has tried to do it on large scale and for me it falls apart as soon as you A/B it with some of the most basic drum samples.
On the other hand, I think there are lots of synthesized drum sounds that can really work (as history has proven) as long as they lean into it and aren't trying to be something that they're not.
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Post by svart on Jul 11, 2024 6:42:25 GMT -6
I dunno about superior drummer, but I use ML Audio and GetGood Drums for stuff and it sounds pretty amazing for what it is. Both of these are for heavier music so I don't know if it's the harder hits and less nuance that makes them seem more realistic, but they're pretty good..
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Post by svart on Jul 11, 2024 6:47:07 GMT -6
Playing devils advocate here - I have fooled/convinced musicians, drummers, skilled engineers and experienced producers with sampled drums and programming. Even 18 + years ago with the original BFD.
It requires great care in velocity, randomness and feel, but it is, absolutely possible and satisfying when done well. It is a labor of love though if you want album/human played quality.
Genre, style, intent and approach are the most relevant aspect of the process in order to be convincing. Understated is best, IMO.
Sometimes I take what the drummer played and MIDI some or all of it. In Reaper you can use Audio-to-MIDI plugins that essentially figure out the velocity for each beat and creates a midi track. I then just quantize the MIDI hits to the grid and then pull them into a full MIDI drum track. Takes so much less time than doing it by hand and it's a lot closer to what the artist played. |
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Post by svart on Jul 11, 2024 7:01:58 GMT -6
If you don’t like modelers, then you can skip the drums. My wallet says I can't...it it often overrules my ears.... Funny story - I was in Gruhns shopping for an acoustic, and the guy helping me asked my budget and then lined up a bunch of acoustic around my budget and had me play through them, asking what I thought of each. At the end of it, he said "I can't sell you a guitar. Your wallet says X but your ears say Y - you need to buy a guitar when you have Y, because you won't be happy otherwise." Some of the best advice I ever got. Sadly, fake drums will have to do for now because real ones are a bridge too far...for the time being.... I needed an acoustic for the studio. Artists kept bringing in junk and it was becoming apparent that I needed to have something for them to use, but I also watched them carelessly handle their own acoustics and whatnot, so I also didn't want to buy a 2K$ guitar and watch them lean it on a chair so it could fall down.. So I enlisted my cousin to travel all around the city with me looking for an acoustic. We went to every single store we could find with guitars. Pawn shops, Guitar Center(two of them), Sam Ash, a very high-end guitar shop, mom&pop places, etc. I wanted something with good intonation and less boomy bottom end so I could record up close. Figured out a few almost universal truths: The difference between a high end guitar and a low end guitar is mostly the low-end frequencies and the playability. Cheap guitars tended to be farther from good intonation, had higher strings or bad fretwork and the low frequencies were very pronounced in a way that makes it hard to record. Anyway, we played everything from 100$ to 2000$ and I had mostly settled on a used ~500$ Alvarez (I think) with a small hole in the side but we were hungry and I wanted to think on it some more. After we ate, we drove by another GC and decided to stop and check it out. They had a handful of used guitars and I found a 1000$ used Taylor (I think) that was really nice and almost bought it, but as I was walking out of the acoustic room, I saw a guitar on a display that had very nice inlays and looked well made, so I asked the kid working there if I could play it (and he didn't seem to care one way or another) so we got it down and my cousin played it while I listened. It was PERFECT. Low end was definitely in check. My cousin said the frets felt good. Intonation was extremely close. I played it a few minutes and it felt good to me as well. I then asked GC Kid about it and he had no idea. There was no sticker or price. We couldn't find any other guitar like it in the store. He had to go get the manager to figure it out. Seems that the guitar was on closeout and had been sitting on the display for a very long time.. So they told me they just wanted to get rid of it, for 125$. They kept telling me that it was a 700$ guitar and that I was getting a crazy deal.. So I've had this guitar for years now and it's been picked to be used on a number of records and songs over much "cooler" stuff simply because it records and plays amazing. People have offered to buy it for 500$. Someone offered a trade of an antique Gibson for it. Someone wanted to borrow it to record at another studio, lol. It's just a Mitchell brand guitar, but it proves that name and price doesn't mean nearly as much as finding the *right* guitar for you and your needs. |
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