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Post by vvvooojjj on Jun 12, 2024 4:11:22 GMT -6
Might grab some of them. How is the eq compared to modern alternatives? Last time I used it was over 10 years ago.
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Post by Dan on Jun 12, 2024 8:23:33 GMT -6
Might grab some of them. How is the eq compared to modern alternatives? Last time I used it was over 10 years ago. I mean it’s pretty much a cleaner fabfilter zero latency mode with more eq shapes, I would say better thought out ones, and knobs and slightly slower workflow. They both pre warp the poles to avoid cramping and extreme nastiness but the phase shift is not what you expect and has a color but not as nasty like a cramped eq. There are cleaner eq structures than both of them but most eqs are not using these because they are in pretty specialized products: u-he filterscape, ni reactor, eq8 in ableton and js:reeq not really suitable for mixing workflows. |
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Post by Quint on Jun 12, 2024 9:00:37 GMT -6
ListenHub is an incredible utility if you need an easy way to monitor multiple sources such as your DAW, Streaming, and another reference (I like to use a rough mix) with dim controls and a ton of other great functions...including the ability to use a iPhone or tablet as the controller. I use Oxford Dynamics on every session. I'll probably pick up the Enhance collection while it's on sale Used this last night and it's awesome. Actually, in another thread I was asking how people deal with the current challenges in converting to WAV files and I think in the back of my mind I was thinking of ListenHub but couldn't remember it. It is super cool. I tested a bunch of Sonnox stuff last night but ListenHub is an instant buy for me. (A bit of a process to set up. Not hard, just a lot of steps... worth it.) I was just gonna ask about ListenHub. For the current price, I just might have to buy it. Hasn't really ever even considered it or really even knew anything about it, but now I'm considering it. |
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Post by itzprime on Jun 12, 2024 9:21:33 GMT -6
Might grab some of them. How is the eq compared to modern alternatives? Last time I used it was over 10 years ago. As Dan said it is a good EQ. If you have something like the TDR, you would have to test it. For me I either use Crave or TDR and am good. |
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Post by ragan on Jun 12, 2024 9:37:38 GMT -6
Sometimes sales like this prompt me to re-evaluate my utility stuff. Due to all the posting about it, I always wonder if FF Pro-Q3 is actually bested by stuff like TDR (which is cool, especially since it’s free). So I did one of my tests last night. Matched EQs across a variety of tracks on FF Pro-Q3 and TDR Nova, bounced, and blind AB’d. They’re obviously not worlds apart, but one of the versions had more space around each sonic element and the other sounded slightly flatter. I was picking the FabFilter.
I should probably stop doing these since it’s been the same result every time I’ve done it (I think the last time I did it was when Crave came out). But it’s good to challenge (and re-affirm if the data supports it) your baseline choices and assumptions.
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Post by ragan on Jun 12, 2024 9:40:33 GMT -6
I was relieved, because FabFilter is by far the easiest/fastest/most intuitive to use. But they are the big dog in utility stuff so (naturally) everyone is always taking shots at them. Which is as it should be. It’s good for us if they are under continual pressure to keep making the best stuff.
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Post by phantom on Jun 12, 2024 10:41:55 GMT -6
I got the Dynamics. Mainly to use the compressor.
I like how aggressive it is, while still sounding transparent enough and giving enough controls to back it off.
I'm not getting the EQ, because I'm good with MDWEQ. It's all I need for digital eqs.
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Post by ragan on Jun 12, 2024 11:08:46 GMT -6
I’m gonna revisit the stuff I used the Dynamics demo on last night, but I was super impressed with it and will probably buy it. Same stuff everyone says, it is super assertive, but sounds clean and good while doing it. Like with fast release on harmonic rich stuff like acoustic guitar (a sound I love but which most compressors struggle with) or just absolutely pinning a vocal in place.
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Post by ragan on Jun 12, 2024 11:14:02 GMT -6
Oh also the Warmth section of Oxford Dynamics is rad.
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Post by ab101 on Jun 12, 2024 11:42:38 GMT -6
The Sonnox oxford reverb is also quite good!
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 12, 2024 11:52:20 GMT -6
I'm probably going to end up getting Dynamics and TransMod. But guys, don't sleep on Inflator. I know there are tons of more sophisticated saturation plugs these days, but sometimes Inflator just freaking nails it, and you can move on. And it's like $35 right now.
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Post by Dan on Jun 12, 2024 11:55:05 GMT -6
Sometimes sales like this prompt me to re-evaluate my utility stuff. Due to all the posting about it, I always wonder if FF Pro-Q3 is actually bested by stuff like TDR (which is cool, especially since it’s free). So I did one of my tests last night. Matched EQs across a variety of tracks on FF Pro-Q3 and TDR Nova, bounced, and blind AB’d. They’re obviously not worlds apart, but one of the versions had more space around each sonic element and the other sounded slightly flatter. I was picking the FabFilter. I should probably stop doing these since it’s been the same result every time I’ve done it (I think the last time I did it was when Crave came out). But it’s good to challenge (and re-affirm if the data supports it) your baseline choices and assumptions. Theyre not really comparable because nova is a parallel equalizer while pro q3 is not. Their responses will be different with the same filters dialed in. Nova and nova ge are also mainly dynamic equalizers, non-linear processors, with very different intended use than pro q3 so they have always active oversampling with two anti-alias filters from up sampling and then down sampling the signal and an elaborate automatic output gain scheme. The anti alias filters can be audible especially at single sample rates but that is better than the alternative dysfunction or bad iir filters whose latency is not a set integer for all frequencies hurting sample accuracy in the daw by allowing sub sample delays. softube not the Weiss bundle and many stock ableton fx are examples of that. High end bells in nova will be cleaner than standard mode of fabfilter. Dynamics will always be cleaner for the most part and hug the material better. Obviously cleanest approach is to do your standard eq moves in one that doesn’t oversample like pro q 3 regular mode and use eq that oversamples to get correct phase and amplitude response for bells in the highs and then use the heavily cleaned up dynamic eqs for dynamics if you need dynamic eq. This is all a problem of 44.1 and 48 kHz sample rates being inadequate for processing the audio and writing transparent anti alias filters without standard eq moves turning into crinkly metallic mush in highs. Only direct way to compare the filter structure of a tdr product and a fabfilter product is to get out slick eq, change quality to live, pro q3 in normal mode and see which filter structure decramped you prefer but of course slick eq and pro q have a much faster workflow than nova and their workflows aren’t really comparable. Natural phase mode might he comparable to eco in regular slick eq if it oversamples because eco disables the optional distortion and uses only one anti alias filter. They don’t need to cut the images because eq is a linear process. Weiss EQ MP does this too and eq8 does this in ableton with a minimum phase filter (eww but so is much of ableton). It might not be compatible if pro q 3 natural phase mode applies a fir filter to warp the response back towards analog like dmg and a few other eqs like the ddmf grand eq and the recent kush one do. The rational for this is less pre ringing at 44.1 or 48 kHz. Mark against it is it cannot do it perfectly versus running the filters at a sample rate where the filters do not alias so it’s technically less correct than the Weiss EQ, MDWEQ, and Slick EQ’s approach while still adding latency. You cannot even compare their filter structures except at 192 kHz because they all use different anti alias filters. Cannot even compare filter stucture of Weiss EQ 1 vs Weiss EQ MP softube plugs. They sound different from different anti-alias filters. |
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Post by Dan on Jun 12, 2024 11:59:43 GMT -6
I'm probably going to end up getting Dynamics and TransMod. But guys, don't sleep on Inflator. I know there are tons of more sophisticated saturation plugs these days, but sometimes Inflator just freaking nails it, and you can move on. And it's like $35 right now. inflator is free gain on low passed guitars without enough gain |
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Post by ragan on Jun 12, 2024 12:05:48 GMT -6
Sometimes sales like this prompt me to re-evaluate my utility stuff. Due to all the posting about it, I always wonder if FF Pro-Q3 is actually bested by stuff like TDR (which is cool, especially since it’s free). So I did one of my tests last night. Matched EQs across a variety of tracks on FF Pro-Q3 and TDR Nova, bounced, and blind AB’d. They’re obviously not worlds apart, but one of the versions had more space around each sonic element and the other sounded slightly flatter. I was picking the FabFilter. I should probably stop doing these since it’s been the same result every time I’ve done it (I think the last time I did it was when Crave came out). But it’s good to challenge (and re-affirm if the data supports it) your baseline choices and assumptions. Theyre not really comparable because nova is a parallel equalizer while pro q3 is not. Their responses will be different with the same filters dialed in. Nova and nova ge are also mainly dynamic equalizers, non-linear processors, with very different intended use than pro q3 so they have always active oversampling with two anti-alias filters from up sampling and then down sampling the signal and an elaborate automatic output gain scheme. The anti alias filters can be audible especially at single sample rates but that is better than the alternative dysfunction or bad iir filters whose latency is not a set integer for all frequencies hurting sample accuracy in the daw by allowing sub sample delays. looks at softube not the Weiss bundle and many stock ableton fx are examples of that. High end bells in nova will be cleaner than standard mode of fabfilter. Dynamics will always be cleaner for the most part and hug the material better. Obviously cleanest approach is to do your standard eq moves in one that doesn’t oversample like pro q 3 regular mode and use eq that oversamples to get correct phase and amplitude response for bells in the highs and then use the heavily cleaned up dynamic eqs for dynamics if you need dynamic eq. This is all a problem of 44.1 and 48 kHz sample rates being inadequate for processing the audio and writing transparent anti alias filters without standard eq moves turning into crinkly metallic mush in highs. Only direct way to compare the filter structure of a tdr product and a fabfilter product is to get out slick eq, change quality to live, pro q3 in normal mode and see which filter structure decramped you prefer but of course slick eq and pro q have a much faster workflow than nova and their workflows aren’t really comparable. Natural phase mode might he comparable to eco in regular slick eq if it oversamples because eco disables the optional distortion and uses only one anti alias filter. They don’t need to cut the images because eq is a linear process. Weiss EQ MP does this too and eq8 does this in ableton with a minimum phase filter (eww but so is much of ableton). It might not be compatible if pro q 3 natural phase mode applies a fir filter to warp the response back towards analog like dmg and a few other eqs like the ddmf grand eq and the recent kush one do. The rational for this is less pre ringing at 44.1 or 48 kHz. Mark against it is it cannot do it perfectly versus running the filters at a sample rate where the filters do not alias so it’s technically less correct than the Weiss EQ, MDWEQ, and Slick EQ’s approach while still adding latency. You cannot even compare their filter structures except at 192 kHz because they all use different anti alias filters. Cannot even compare filter stucture of Weiss EQ 1 vs Weiss EQ MP softube plugs. They sound different from different anti-alias filters. Yeah, I’m at 88.2kHz and wasn’t using any dynamics. Default mode in both plugs. FabFilter just sounded better, to me. |
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Post by Dan on Jun 12, 2024 13:01:04 GMT -6
Theyre not really comparable because nova is a parallel equalizer while pro q3 is not. Their responses will be different with the same filters dialed in. Nova and nova ge are also mainly dynamic equalizers, non-linear processors, with very different intended use than pro q3 so they have always active oversampling with two anti-alias filters from up sampling and then down sampling the signal and an elaborate automatic output gain scheme. The anti alias filters can be audible especially at single sample rates but that is better than the alternative dysfunction or bad iir filters whose latency is not a set integer for all frequencies hurting sample accuracy in the daw by allowing sub sample delays. looks at softube not the Weiss bundle and many stock ableton fx are examples of that. High end bells in nova will be cleaner than standard mode of fabfilter. Dynamics will always be cleaner for the most part and hug the material better. Obviously cleanest approach is to do your standard eq moves in one that doesn’t oversample like pro q 3 regular mode and use eq that oversamples to get correct phase and amplitude response for bells in the highs and then use the heavily cleaned up dynamic eqs for dynamics if you need dynamic eq. This is all a problem of 44.1 and 48 kHz sample rates being inadequate for processing the audio and writing transparent anti alias filters without standard eq moves turning into crinkly metallic mush in highs. Only direct way to compare the filter structure of a tdr product and a fabfilter product is to get out slick eq, change quality to live, pro q3 in normal mode and see which filter structure decramped you prefer but of course slick eq and pro q have a much faster workflow than nova and their workflows aren’t really comparable. Natural phase mode might he comparable to eco in regular slick eq if it oversamples because eco disables the optional distortion and uses only one anti alias filter. They don’t need to cut the images because eq is a linear process. Weiss EQ MP does this too and eq8 does this in ableton with a minimum phase filter (eww but so is much of ableton). It might not be compatible if pro q 3 natural phase mode applies a fir filter to warp the response back towards analog like dmg and a few other eqs like the ddmf grand eq and the recent kush one do. The rational for this is less pre ringing at 44.1 or 48 kHz. Mark against it is it cannot do it perfectly versus running the filters at a sample rate where the filters do not alias so it’s technically less correct than the Weiss EQ, MDWEQ, and Slick EQ’s approach while still adding latency. You cannot even compare their filter structures except at 192 kHz because they all use different anti alias filters. Cannot even compare filter stucture of Weiss EQ 1 vs Weiss EQ MP softube plugs. They sound different from different anti-alias filters. Yeah, I’m at 88.2kHz and wasn’t using any dynamics. Default mode in both plugs. FabFilter just sounded better, to me. Nova still oversamples to 176.4 kHz on default precise mode. It's a dynamic eq and meant for that and what's put into it to make it work can affect the sound. Pro Q 3 is your normal workhorse EQ with a dirty dynamic eq mode tacked on. You can use either as a standard eq or a dynamic eq but they're not really meant for their unintended use. To really compare them as static eqs you have to defeat the anti-alias filters. Slick EQ and Oxford EQ sound remarkably similar when I do that and match the filters.
EDIT: matched the numerical precision artifacts in plugin doctor of oxford and slick eq m. funny. but of course you'd never get the same results in the real world with them and they can be set in ways the other cannot.
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Post by phantom on Jun 12, 2024 13:14:44 GMT -6
I like pro-q a lot. It's the best workflow and doing a/b tests against other digital eqs, I couldn't hear enough difference to justify losing pro-qs workflow.
Except for MDWEQ6. This one sounded better than the fabfilter for me
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Post by itzprime on Jun 12, 2024 13:19:20 GMT -6
Sometimes sales like this prompt me to re-evaluate my utility stuff. Due to all the posting about it, I always wonder if FF Pro-Q3 is actually bested by stuff like TDR (which is cool, especially since it’s free). So I did one of my tests last night. Matched EQs across a variety of tracks on FF Pro-Q3 and TDR Nova, bounced, and blind AB’d. They’re obviously not worlds apart, but one of the versions had more space around each sonic element and the other sounded slightly flatter. I was picking the FabFilter. I should probably stop doing these since it’s been the same result every time I’ve done it (I think the last time I did it was when Crave came out). But it’s good to challenge (and re-affirm if the data supports it) your baseline choices and assumptions. While Nova is a decent EQ, it is a different architecture to the Fabfilter - comparing it with TDR Slick EQ would have been the better for the curves. Secondly, did you match the curves via PluginDoctor, because the Q of the Fabfilter is different compared to most others. I think what is 1 in Fabfilter is 0.72 in most others. |
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Post by itzprime on Jun 12, 2024 13:29:52 GMT -6
I'm probably going to end up getting Dynamics and TransMod. But guys, don't sleep on Inflator. I know there are tons of more sophisticated saturation plugs these days, but sometimes Inflator just freaking nails it, and you can move on. And it's like $35 right now. I never got the love for Inflator. It's just a waveshaper that IMO doesn't sound special and aliases. I think it is by far the worst plugin from Sonnox |
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Post by ragan on Jun 12, 2024 13:53:04 GMT -6
Sometimes sales like this prompt me to re-evaluate my utility stuff. Due to all the posting about it, I always wonder if FF Pro-Q3 is actually bested by stuff like TDR (which is cool, especially since it’s free). So I did one of my tests last night. Matched EQs across a variety of tracks on FF Pro-Q3 and TDR Nova, bounced, and blind AB’d. They’re obviously not worlds apart, but one of the versions had more space around each sonic element and the other sounded slightly flatter. I was picking the FabFilter. I should probably stop doing these since it’s been the same result every time I’ve done it (I think the last time I did it was when Crave came out). But it’s good to challenge (and re-affirm if the data supports it) your baseline choices and assumptions. While Nova is a decent EQ, it is a different architecture to the Fabfilter - comparing it with TDR Slick EQ would have been the better for the curves. Secondly, did you match the curves via PluginDoctor, because the Q of the Fabfilter is different compared to most others. I think what is 1 in Fabfilter is 0.72 in most others. I only matched Q, freq and gain from within each GUI, no third plug-in checking parameters. I just used them as I would in mixing, and preferred the FF. It’s not surprising, I’ve done this before (with other EQs) and preferred FF. That’s interesting about the Q discrepancy, but I don’t believe it is primarily responsible for the difference I picked out in the blind test. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 12, 2024 14:03:57 GMT -6
I'm probably going to end up getting Dynamics and TransMod. But guys, don't sleep on Inflator. I know there are tons of more sophisticated saturation plugs these days, but sometimes Inflator just freaking nails it, and you can move on. And it's like $35 right now. I never got the love for Inflator. It's just a waveshaper that IMO doesn't sound special and aliases. I think it is by far the worst plugin from Sonnox Hello, itzprime, and welcome to RGO |
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Post by itzprime on Jun 12, 2024 14:13:14 GMT -6
While Nova is a decent EQ, it is a different architecture to the Fabfilter - comparing it with TDR Slick EQ would have been the better for the curves. Secondly, did you match the curves via PluginDoctor, because the Q of the Fabfilter is different compared to most others. I think what is 1 in Fabfilter is 0.72 in most others. I only matched Q, freq and gain from within each GUI, no third plug-in checking parameters. I just used them as I would in mixing, and preferred the FF. It’s not surprising, I’ve done this before (with other EQs) and preferred FF. That’s interesting about the Q discrepancy, but I don’t believe it is primarily responsible for the difference I picked out in the blind test. Well, but then the testing is flawed, because the Q value in the Fabfilter is non standard. So if you put the Fabfilter on 1 - the Nova would have to have a Q of 0.72. If you put the Q on the Nova on 1 as well, it would have a narrower band and thus it would be obvious that you prefer the Fabfilter as it boosts more frequencies. |
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Post by itzprime on Jun 12, 2024 14:14:14 GMT -6
I never got the love for Inflator. It's just a waveshaper that IMO doesn't sound special and aliases. I think it is by far the worst plugin from Sonnox Hello, itzprime, and welcome to RGO Thanks. I really love some other tools from Sonnox. I think their Vocal plugin is the best pop vocal plugin out there, and I also like the Limiter on Some stuff. Their EQ is good too (although I prefer the TDR one). Its just the Inflator I don't enjoy  |
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Post by ragan on Jun 12, 2024 14:21:07 GMT -6
I only matched Q, freq and gain from within each GUI, no third plug-in checking parameters. I just used them as I would in mixing, and preferred the FF. It’s not surprising, I’ve done this before (with other EQs) and preferred FF. That’s interesting about the Q discrepancy, but I don’t believe it is primarily responsible for the difference I picked out in the blind test. Well, but then the testing is flawed, because the Q value in the Fabfilter is non standard. So if you put the Fabfilter on 1 - the Nova would have to have a Q of 0.72. If you put the Q on the Nova on 1 as well, it would have a narrower band and thus it would be obvious that you prefer the Fabfilter as it boosts more frequencies. I understand the potential ramifications of the Q delta, and have a pretty good sense of what slightly different Q would do in a context like this, vs the overall tonal/spatial difference that showed up in my blind tests. Also “boosts more frequencies” != “prefer”. Some of these were cuts, and also wider boosting doesn’t by default sound better, it can sound worse. If I decide I care about the Q thing, maybe I’ll setup Plug-in Doctor and visually match them closer. |
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Post by Dan on Jun 12, 2024 16:53:13 GMT -6
Well, but then the testing is flawed, because the Q value in the Fabfilter is non standard. So if you put the Fabfilter on 1 - the Nova would have to have a Q of 0.72. If you put the Q on the Nova on 1 as well, it would have a narrower band and thus it would be obvious that you prefer the Fabfilter as it boosts more frequencies. I understand the potential ramifications of the Q delta, and have a pretty good sense of what slightly different Q would do in a context like this, vs the overall tonal/spatial difference that showed up in my blind tests. Also “boosts more frequencies” != “prefer”. Some of these were cuts, and also wider boosting doesn’t by default sound better, it can sound worse. If I decide I care about the Q thing, maybe I’ll setup Plug-in Doctor and visually match them closer. sorry if i came across as combative. i agree with you. i was just trying to say that what is done to prevent distortion in dynamics processors can change the sound. it's probably the anti-alias filter in nova, which is relatively transparent compared to the ones in weiss ds1/eq1 which is more transparent or rather more immediate than the mdweq one at 44.1 khz. running nova at 192 khz gets the filter out of the audio path. kotelnikov at 88.2 khz and up but the sidechain is at least 16x oversampled on insane. molot, well precise at 192 khz is out of the path but insane still has it at 384 khz suggesting the audio path goes at least to 768 khz.
higher sample rate sessions (and recordings) get these filters out of the audio path or push the higher pre ringing well outside of the audible range. of course then you often have more imd that's getting filtered out in lower sample rate sessions (say 1-2x rates) getting modulated in the higher sample rate ones and the end product is almost always 44.1 or 48 khz.
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Post by ragan on Jun 12, 2024 16:59:44 GMT -6
I understand the potential ramifications of the Q delta, and have a pretty good sense of what slightly different Q would do in a context like this, vs the overall tonal/spatial difference that showed up in my blind tests. Also “boosts more frequencies” != “prefer”. Some of these were cuts, and also wider boosting doesn’t by default sound better, it can sound worse. If I decide I care about the Q thing, maybe I’ll setup Plug-in Doctor and visually match them closer. sorry if i came across as combative. i agree with you. i was just trying to say that what is done to prevent distortion in dynamics processors can change the sound. it's probably the anti-alias filter in nova, which is relatively transparent compared to the ones in weiss ds1/eq1 which is more transparent or rather more immediate than the mdweq one at 44.1 khz. running nova at 192 khz gets the filter out of the audio path. kotelnikov at 88.2 khz and up but the sidechain is at least 16x oversampled on insane. molot, well precise at 192 khz is out of the path but insane still has it at 384 khz suggesting the audio path goes at least to 768 khz.
higher sample rate sessions (and recordings) get these filters out of the audio path or push the higher pre ringing well outside of the audible range. of course then you often have more imd that's getting filtered out in lower sample rate sessions (say 1-2x rates) getting modulated in the higher sample rate ones and the end product is almost always 44.1 or 48 khz.
Wait I was responding to itzprime. Is that also you dan? |
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