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Post by Dan on May 21, 2024 8:47:24 GMT -6
There is no way in hell Behringer can build a precision box with switched controls, correct attack/release filter values, low enough noise and distortion, get the distortion from diodes as a variable resistor to do what you what you want dynamically, and get the hysteresis from the transformers and distortion of the makeup circuit to change the timbre how you want, and then maintain it in the condition that you want it in. Does this use their standard poor quality, switch mode power supplies? Their typical crappy JRC4580 opamps and "midas" transformers that do nothing you want for the tone? Will they fix it when the values drift and parts die or will this just end up in a landfill in Africa or Asia for the boards to be burned for their precious metal content like all of the X32 boards?
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Post by ragan on May 21, 2024 8:55:04 GMT -6
lol
Running into a lot of component value drift and hysteresis issues on all your Behringer gear are you, Dan?
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Post by ragan on May 21, 2024 8:57:12 GMT -6
Maybe…and just hear me out here…this piece of gear isn’t for you? 😃
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Post by phantom on May 21, 2024 8:58:28 GMT -6
I'm afraid Dan is not going to survive this thread.
Guy is fumming.
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Post by ragan on May 21, 2024 9:14:02 GMT -6
I’m just joking around Dan.
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Post by Quint on May 21, 2024 9:19:14 GMT -6
I see that Behringer is releasing a two channel 1073 now as well. I’m waiting for the £4,999 Neve 88RS console clone.  I am not.  |
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Post by doubledog on May 21, 2024 9:41:21 GMT -6
dang, 6 pages already and nobody here has even touched one of these yet...  |
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timix
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Post by timix on May 21, 2024 9:54:26 GMT -6
They even beat Warm to the punch on this one! Looks interesting though. I get along with my modded 2A-KT. I noticed the 369-KT designation - so does that mean they fully absorbed KT now and only put B on new products? edit - now that's strange - the actual Behringer site has it only as "369" and not as "369-KT" so it seems like maybe they changed the name at the last minute while place like Thomann - and even the purple site - still had 369-KT on websites Klark, Midas, TC, Tannoy no longer exist anymore as we knew them, they have an office/address in the country of origin but no factory's, there might be some designers in those offices but they no longer create original products. Original products designed and made by these companies are no longer made apart from a few KT pieces that deal with AES 50; No classic Tannoy monitors or PA speakers; no more Midas Pro series consoles or support; there is no TC hardware anymore, just pedals and software. I was dealing with Midas UK a lot prior to the takeover, met with several tech guys for training, after that the techs came from Singapore. |
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Post by Dan on May 21, 2024 10:00:50 GMT -6
Maybe…and just hear me out here…this piece of gear isn’t for you? 😃 of course it isn’t. Just Behringer cloning another piece of still made, albeit modernized, gear that uses a clever, if high distortion, variable resistor approach requiring high tolerance component matching and low noise, high gain amplifiers to get a result that sounded acceptable with the distortion is pretty crazy thinking about all the parts and labor cuts (a lot of these more complex sidechain compressors are hand trimmed/biased, calibrated, and tested) would take to manufacture it and sell it at a profit for under 500 bucks. They have to be using parts out of a standard parts bin and recycling circuit designs to do so rather than clone the product or make a comparable one. A lot of compressors ime are pretty much just shaped distortion that helps to mask the envelopes being applied to the audio and I don’t see what a cheaped out clone filled with circuit designs producing less euphonic distortions can provide especially products which drift into cacophonic distortions with age and component wear rather than just channel matching and filters just going off. Which is a real problem with a lot of these clones, cleaned up, or modded versions of products in that the originals were designed wholistically to serve a role even if they had a sound and the sound and function are inherent. Clean up an 1176 and it just sounds metallic much of the time. Or the dbx 160 versions where each subsequent modernization of the compressor seems to be more controversial. Remove the goo and the brown from a lot of circuits and yeah it might have less distortion but you might not like what’s coming through it cleaner. A compressor designed around a cleaner circuit might have used slower or more program dependent attack/release filters (or a different rectifier or knee created with different diodes or variable resistors/amplfiers) and the same can apply to any piece of equipment. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 21, 2024 10:17:58 GMT -6
They even beat Warm to the punch on this one! Looks interesting though. I get along with my modded 2A-KT. I noticed the 369-KT designation - so does that mean they fully absorbed KT now and only put B on new products? edit - now that's strange - the actual Behringer site has it only as "369" and not as "369-KT" so it seems like maybe they changed the name at the last minute while place like Thomann - and even the purple site - still had 369-KT on websites Klark, Midas, TC, Tannoy no longer exist anymore as we knew them, they have an office/address in the country of origin but no factory's, there might be some designers in those offices but they no longer create original products. Original products designed and made by these companies are no longer made apart from a few KT pieces that deal with AES 50; No classic Tannoy monitors or PA speakers; no more Midas Pro series consoles or support; there is no TC hardware anymore, just pedals and software. I was dealing with Midas UK a lot prior to the takeover, met with several tech guys for training, after that the techs came from Singapore. Of course the counterpoint to this is under Bosch Midas had no development budget and all the engineers were hopeful Music group would change that, and it did. Under MG Tannoy has more or less refocused on the High End Consumer market. They have even reissued most of the expensive classics. Of course the Fane OEM drivers they are using suck, but the cabinets are pretty. Having Known people at EV/ Bosch MG, Tannoy and TC Turbo, etc. and we are talking C suite level, we have to balance our opinion of the current state of these brands with this simple fact, would we be better off had MG not purchased them, because in most cases the alternative is a world without them. I’ll admit I’m not sure what would be worse. |
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timix
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Post by timix on May 21, 2024 11:30:34 GMT -6
Klark, Midas, TC, Tannoy no longer exist anymore as we knew them, they have an office/address in the country of origin but no factory's, there might be some designers in those offices but they no longer create original products. Original products designed and made by these companies are no longer made apart from a few KT pieces that deal with AES 50; No classic Tannoy monitors or PA speakers; no more Midas Pro series consoles or support; there is no TC hardware anymore, just pedals and software. I was dealing with Midas UK a lot prior to the takeover, met with several tech guys for training, after that the techs came from Singapore. Of course the counterpoint to this is under Bosch Midas had no development budget and all the engineers were hopeful Music group would change that, and it did. Under MG Tannoy has more or less refocused on the High End Consumer market. They have even reissued most of the expensive classics. Of course the Fane OEM drivers they are using suck, but the cabinets are pretty. Having Known people at EV/ Bosch MG, Tannoy and TC Turbo, etc. and we are talking C suite level, we have to balance our opinion of the current state of these brands with this simple fact, would we be better off had MG not purchased them, because in most cases the alternative is a world without them. I’ll admit I’m not sure what would be worse. Thanks for the update, interesting Tannoy targeting the hi fi market more than the pro market under the new ownership. the other companies have nothing to offer the professional anymore and the names are just used for marketing, KT would never make such cheap products like the 1176, LA2a & Pultec, Midas never made transformers AFAIK, they would never had made cheap digital consoles with "midas preamps", you can't get support or parts for the Pro Series console's anymore, we had 11. So maybe it wouldn't be much loss without them. |
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Post by kcatthedog on May 21, 2024 12:21:28 GMT -6
For me, these kind of insightful, where we were, where we are now conversations, really underscore the value of say, Audioscape and Stam: clones, yes, but made to very high part’s quality standards and authentic to original circuits, with some value added mods in some cases look.
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Post by ragan on May 21, 2024 12:29:07 GMT -6
And don't forget Iron Age Audio, who are doing something truly unique in that they actually design their own circuits, and offer extensive customization.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 21, 2024 12:44:10 GMT -6
Agreed!
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Post by kbsmoove on May 21, 2024 15:53:14 GMT -6
Or the dbx 160 versions where each subsequent modernization of the compressor seems to be more controversial. Remove the goo and the brown from a lot of circuits and yeah it might have less distortion but you might not like what’s coming through it cleaner. true. until you get to the 160SL which is a true slammer. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,114
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Post by ericn on May 21, 2024 16:11:00 GMT -6
Of course the counterpoint to this is under Bosch Midas had no development budget and all the engineers were hopeful Music group would change that, and it did. Under MG Tannoy has more or less refocused on the High End Consumer market. They have even reissued most of the expensive classics. Of course the Fane OEM drivers they are using suck, but the cabinets are pretty. Having Known people at EV/ Bosch MG, Tannoy and TC Turbo, etc. and we are talking C suite level, we have to balance our opinion of the current state of these brands with this simple fact, would we be better off had MG not purchased them, because in most cases the alternative is a world without them. I’ll admit I’m not sure what would be worse. Thanks for the update, interesting Tannoy targeting the hi fi market more than the pro market under the new ownership. the other companies have nothing to offer the professional anymore and the names are just used for marketing, KT would never make such cheap products like the 1176, LA2a & Pultec, Midas never made transformers AFAIK, they would never had made cheap digital consoles with "midas preamps", you can't get support or parts for the Pro Series console's anymore, we had 11. So maybe it wouldn't be much loss without them. As audio gear becomes more and more closed loop IT, we unfortunately have to realize long term manufacture support is a thing of the past, and yes it sucks, big time. |
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Post by doubledog on May 23, 2024 8:15:57 GMT -6
My Sweetwater rep called me to tell me I should really preorder if I wanted it (I hit the "notify me when in stock" button) and I'm sure I disappointed him when I said I was in no hurry and really only going to buy it if there was large consensus that it beat the UAD plugin (which I already do have - and like on drum bus). Otherwise, I'll save $500 or wait until they show up used for < $250. conversation didn't last much longer after that lol. |
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Post by kcatthedog on May 23, 2024 9:24:41 GMT -6
Sell the sizzle! |
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Post by Dan on May 23, 2024 10:02:38 GMT -6
My Sweetwater rep called me to tell me I should really preorder if I wanted it (I hit the "notify me when in stock" button) and I'm sure I disappointed him when I said I was in no hurry and really only going to buy it if there was large consensus that it beat the UAD plugin (which I already do have - and like on drum bus). Otherwise, I'll save $500 or wait until they show up used for < $250. conversation didn't last much longer after that lol. it has to beat everything that can have an auto release a big overshoot / smack or a lot distortion so: the softube chandler germanium compressor and zener limiter and the new vca comps, Weiss ds1, molot ge, faraday limiter, vulf comp, psp impressor, unisum, the kush Silika, the dmg trackcomp 2 zener mode (only good part of it along with the 2.5k that sounds nothing like a 2500), etc. there’s a lot of stuff and it won’t have the dull behringer sound or noise issues or lack of harmonic distortion to cover over the cymbal flutter and high end imd present in jrc4580 or the hash of the crappy behringer smps. |
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timix
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Post by timix on May 23, 2024 10:46:05 GMT -6
My Sweetwater rep called me to tell me I should really preorder if I wanted it (I hit the "notify me when in stock" button) and I'm sure I disappointed him when I said I was in no hurry and really only going to buy it if there was large consensus that it beat the UAD plugin (which I already do have - and like on drum bus). Otherwise, I'll save $500 or wait until they show up used for < $250. conversation didn't last much longer after that lol. THis will of interest to you |
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Post by patrickp on May 23, 2024 18:13:39 GMT -6
I love dan
I have the AlexB Nebula version of 33609 metal knob. Don't have the uad version but
Pretty Shure the Nebula one is better. Even better when using dual mono in Bluwcats Patchwork. I like to use my Nebula comp this way on mixbus or mastering
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Post by Blackdawg on May 24, 2024 0:16:18 GMT -6
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Post by Dan on May 24, 2024 7:19:26 GMT -6
the envelope the behringer is applying to that mix sounds so stupid |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 24, 2024 17:04:35 GMT -6
the envelope the behringer is applying to that mix sounds so stupid What does that mean? |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 24, 2024 17:10:28 GMT -6
My Sweetwater rep called me to tell me I should really preorder if I wanted it (I hit the "notify me when in stock" button) and I'm sure I disappointed him when I said I was in no hurry and really only going to buy it if there was large consensus that it beat the UAD plugin (which I already do have - and like on drum bus). Otherwise, I'll save $500 or wait until they show up used for < $250. conversation didn't last much longer after that lol. THis will of interest to you Just watching on my phone. Where is he saying they’re rolling off on the bottom? What freq |
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Post by Dan on May 24, 2024 18:11:21 GMT -6
the envelope the behringer is applying to that mix sounds so stupid What does that mean? Attack and release are low pass filters on the control path of a compressor that slow down the gain reduction and gain recovery. They always introduce an envelope on the signal. This can be subtle or very obvious. The better compressors speed up and slow down with the material they are fed. That’s why it’s crucial to get the compressor and music working in tandem to reduce audible modulation of the signal. For transients on auto releases or an opto, you want to get the compressor to where the release speeds up to release quickly and then use the slower release for the non transient body of the signal and there will often be a secondary slower attack too after the initial faster one like on an ssl bus or an optical compressor en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Envelope_(music)Diode bridge compressors are feedback compressors with a diode used as a variable resister at a small point in its transfer curve. They’re feedback because they’re not logarithmic like we hear so the compression is in response to events that have already occurred and the attack tends to start out slow and then speed up. So you get an attack that goes like: 1. — (inaction. Overshoot, what triggers the feedback compressor afterwards) 2. \ (gentle slope which is mostly unique to diode bridges, some fets, and some digital and vca compressors) 3. \ (steeper slope until it reaches the amount of gain reduction it’s supposed to or the signal changes) which is unusual and can apply a weird artificial envelope to percussion that just makes it sound fake in many cases but can also help it punch through a wall of murk. If the circuit as a whole has more saturation or sounds mushy, you can get away with this unnatural envelope. If it doesn’t, the attack rate is poorly chosen or the capacitors and resistors being used poorly specced and considering the junky transistors, opamps, and transformers behringer has in their parts bins, the artificial envelope applied to the drums gets a lot more obvious and sounds like a dirty, distorted crappy transient, ie fake. |
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Post by the other mark williams on May 24, 2024 19:37:21 GMT -6
I haven't had a chance yet to listen to the other videos posted after this one, but on this particular video, I'm a little surprised I'm hearing as much difference as (I think) I am. The Neve version sounds more open and natural on top, and tighter on bottom. The Behringer sounds flubbier and looser on bottom and more closed or caved in on top (to me). They both sound unneeded on the drum-only example because the drums already seem overprocessed to me, but they both sound nice on the full song mix - they both add some excitement. I do like the Neve more in this particular example. I look forward to checking out the other vids after this one. |
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Post by thehightenor on May 25, 2024 2:09:18 GMT -6
I haven't had a chance yet to listen to the other videos posted after this one, but on this particular video, I'm a little surprised I'm hearing as much difference as (I think) I am. The Neve version sounds more open and natural on top, and tighter on bottom. The Behringer sounds flubbier and looser on bottom and more closed or caved in on top (to me). They both sound unneeded on the drum-only example because the drums already seem overprocessed to me, but they both sound nice on the full song mix - they both add some excitement. I do like the Neve more in this particular example. I look forward to checking out the other vids after this one. +1 That’s the word I use to describe cheap and cheerful clone compressors - flubby sounding. |
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Post by thehightenor on May 25, 2024 2:10:28 GMT -6
I’m waiting for the £4,999 Neve 88RS console clone. I am not. I was being sarcastic! |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 25, 2024 8:11:48 GMT -6
I’m on the preorder list. It’s $500. If it sucks I can return it or probably sell it for a $60 loss or something.
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