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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2024 7:41:49 GMT -6
The 03 cost $2000 usd, ya I know there are more expensive speakers, but don’t think of these as low cost ? I heard one pair of bf I think 2’s, can’t say they did much for me, thought the bass a little overdone and they didn’t sound very clear to me. If I could demo the 03 properly, I’d do so, but so far, no opportunity. Enjoy your Amphion John, you seem well calibrated to them and confident about your mix decisions and quality: that’s like money in the bank, as you won’t waste time. Yeah…Dear Amphion god, I am sorry I ever doubted you. |
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Post by FM77 on Jun 5, 2024 7:46:21 GMT -6
The 03 cost $2000 usd, ya I know there are more expensive speakers, but don’t think of these as low cost ? I completely understand this. Though I think we can likely agree that $2000 doesn't go as far as it used to and this is for a pair of 3-ways. 4 drivers, 2 tweeters, 3 way amplifier, crossovers, tuned enclosures etc. And both manufacture and retailer have margin. I cannot imagine how any well designed 3-way speaker can be executed for less than twice that. The Focal Shape Twins would be my preference at the $2k price. 2.5 way. I felt that was my biggest mistake losing those.
I feel my Focal Trios are my 'semi-budget' but still professional 3 ways monitors, whereas my ATCs are my true reference monitors. But again it is all relative and personal and we all make up our own rules about it all as we go. Though it does seem, relativity is a perspective that can't be pushed aside in a professional environment for the sake of convenience.
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Post by Dan on Jun 5, 2024 8:05:01 GMT -6
The 03 cost $2000 usd, ya I know there are more expensive speakers, but don’t think of these as low cost ? I completely understand this. Though I think we can likely agree that $2000 doesn't go as far as it used to and this is for a pair of 3-ways. 4 drivers, 2 tweeters, 3 way amplifier, crossovers, tuned enclosures etc. And both manufacture and retailer have margin. I cannot imagine how any well designed 3-way speaker can be executed for less than twice that. The Focal Shape Twins would be my preference at the $2k price. 2.5 way. I felt that was my biggest mistake losing those.
I feel my Focal Trios are my 'semi-budget' but still professional 3 ways monitors, whereas my ATCs are my true reference monitors. But again it is all relative and personal and we all make up our own rules about it all as we go. Though it does seem, relativity is a perspective that can't be pushed aside in a professional environment for the sake of convenience.
Also focal and atc make their own top of the line low distortion drivers so they can afford to use them in smaller, cheaper products like the two ways while other manufacturers have to buy them. The lower end non SL ATCs and the Focal Shapes and Arias are still excellent speakers. |
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Post by Dan on Jun 5, 2024 8:16:31 GMT -6
After all that… The mix that sounded pretty phenomenal in my studio sounded like shit in the car…I’m actually kind of surprised…I’m sure I could learn them, but the mix levels were…not right in the car…I haven’t had issues with that on the Amphions. Vocals were too low and I made a point of trying to get them right…Bass boomy…just not happy with that at all. Maybe it was just a day when I mixed too long and lost perspective. But like I said - I don’t have that issue with the Amphions… There are things I really like about them, but I’m trying to figure out whether to just cut bait or potentially waste time mixing on them more. Let me say - they sound pretty spectacular with the sub and going through the Trinnov. The bottom/low mids are tighter with the Barefoots and I’d venture to say - by my memory (I’ll be able to have them side by side hopefully here by the end of the weekend. Watching this thread unfold, respectfully, I was genuinely waiting for this. With monitors, honeymoon responses are rarely worth much consideration.
Lower priced monitors, sub or not, tend to be hyped on purpose. Perhaps harder discern in today's hyped audio landscape where the ear reaches for a certain 'over the topness'? So many bright or over-hyped plugins and hyped references might make it easier to feel insta-good about them etc. Honestly I don't know. I do know that with monitors as with so many other things, true quality costs. Flat and natural costs money to design, implement and execute. There just isn't any way around it.
It doesn't mean we are better at mixing with flat and natural monitors. And then of course, mix on these for a few months and you'll tame the problem areas with experience and your mixes will start to translate. But it still doesn't make them less hyped.
I hope you get the Amphions sorted John.
What is flat too? Neumann is flat but they equalize their speakers to death in the crossover with cheap plate amps so have limited detail and headroom and the crossovers are still audible on all of them not the no headroom, one note bass kh80 now. Genelec too now but they’re a little higher end and clearer and the limiters are very heavy to protect that crazy coax array and weird Bose looking oval woofer. Otherwise you’d crunch that thing up (what happened to all the great Yamaha msp monitors) and rip the weirdo woofer off of its surrounds in normal use. They have zero headroom next to ATC and Focal and even KRK. |
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Post by Dan on Jun 5, 2024 8:18:19 GMT -6
After all that… The mix that sounded pretty phenomenal in my studio sounded like shit in the car…I’m actually kind of surprised…I’m sure I could learn them, but the mix levels were…not right in the car…I haven’t had issues with that on the Amphions. Vocals were too low and I made a point of trying to get them right…Bass boomy…just not happy with that at all. Maybe it was just a day when I mixed too long and lost perspective. But like I said - I don’t have that issue with the Amphions… There are things I really like about them, but I’m trying to figure out whether to just cut bait or potentially waste time mixing on them more. Let me say - they sound pretty spectacular with the sub and going through the Trinnov. The bottom/low mids are tighter with the Barefoots and I’d venture to say - by my memory (I’ll be able to have them side by side hopefully here by the end of the weekend. Barefoots sound like hifi speakers designed to flatter rap. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 5, 2024 8:30:35 GMT -6
The 03 cost $2000 usd, ya I know there are more expensive speakers, but don’t think of these as low cost ? I completely understand this. Though I think we can likely agree that $2000 doesn't go as far as it used to and this is for a pair of 3-ways. 4 drivers, 2 tweeters, 3 way amplifier, crossovers, tuned enclosures etc. And both manufacture and retailer have margin. I cannot imagine how any well designed 3-way speaker can be executed for less than twice that. The Focal Shape Twins would be my preference at the $2k price. 2.5 way. I felt that was my biggest mistake losing those.
I feel my Focal Trios are my 'semi-budget' but still professional 3 ways monitors, whereas my ATCs are my true reference monitors. But again it is all relative and personal and we all make up our own rules about it all as we go. Though it does seem, relativity is a perspective that can't be pushed aside in a professional environment for the sake of convenience.
Ya, we are discussing not arguing, the dyn lyd48’s retail I think for around $2600 usd and they have a good rep. |
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Post by FM77 on Jun 5, 2024 8:42:02 GMT -6
I completely understand this. Though I think we can likely agree that $2000 doesn't go as far as it used to and this is for a pair of 3-ways. 4 drivers, 2 tweeters, 3 way amplifier, crossovers, tuned enclosures etc. And both manufacture and retailer have margin. I cannot imagine how any well designed 3-way speaker can be executed for less than twice that. The Focal Shape Twins would be my preference at the $2k price. 2.5 way. I felt that was my biggest mistake losing those.
I feel my Focal Trios are my 'semi-budget' but still professional 3 ways monitors, whereas my ATCs are my true reference monitors. But again it is all relative and personal and we all make up our own rules about it all as we go. Though it does seem, relativity is a perspective that can't be pushed aside in a professional environment for the sake of convenience.
Ya, we are discussing not arguing, the dyn lyd48’s retail I think for around $2600 usd and they have a good rep. I can see that.
Dyns are made 100% in house. They control high quality standards. Just a great company and always been used here until about 3 years ago I sold my last pair.
Barefoot imports drivers. At least they used to.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2024 8:44:00 GMT -6
I don't believe you have to spend $10k on monitors to be able to do fantastic work.
The Barefoots sound good...I might spend a little time trying to fix this mix and see if my hearing was just shot. I'm trying to figure out why there would be such a difference when they're both supposedly being corrected by the Trinnov. I realize different speakers will have different results, but this was not close enough to my prior results to kinda make me panic lol.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 5, 2024 8:45:34 GMT -6
My first thought about the 03, was that they were intended to be lyd48 killers: $5-600 usd price difference, but I’m not convinced the 03 are better, while being cheaper
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Post by FM77 on Jun 5, 2024 8:50:43 GMT -6
I don't believe you have to spend $10k on monitors to be able to do fantastic work. Of course. We agree on that. That has been proven time and again and I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.
Every era of pro audio shifts with the tools. Both for the better and the worse.
Though you may have to spend $10k if you buy new and you want a certain monitor to use. The last percentages in gear quality is never linear in cost.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 5, 2024 9:10:43 GMT -6
When I heard the Amphion line they instantly reminded me of NS-10's. If I wanted NS-10's I'd get them. I miss my Avantone Abbeys. They were incredibly transparent and sounded great, even at very low levels. It was only medical expenses that made me sell them.
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Post by FM77 on Jun 5, 2024 9:18:31 GMT -6
What I personally mean by relativity, is often these dialogues about monitoring are happening in the last 5-10% of the equation where alot of gear heads live. That be said of alot gear conversations with professionals or tone maniacs.
Countless brands and models are 90-95% there by default, at many different price points. This is where alot of people live and where alot of people make music. And it can sound really great. It is much easier to get to the 95% mark (arbitrary) and call it good.
When you are living in the details of your craft, whether for your own interest or for your client, the reality between 95% and the gaps to be where you want to be, might come at a genuine or significant up cost.
And there are always exceptions.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2024 9:47:27 GMT -6
What I personally mean by relativity, is often these dialogues about monitoring are happening in the last 5-10% of the equation where alot of gear heads live. That be said of alot gear conversations with professionals or tone maniacs. Countless brands and models are 90-95% there by default, at many different price points. This is where alot of people live and where alot of people make music. And it can sound really great. It is much easier to get to the 95% mark (arbitrary) and call it good. When you are living in the details of your craft, whether for your own interest or for your client, the reality between 95% and the gaps to be where you want to be, might come at a genuine or significant up cost. And there are always exceptions. Yeah most everything at a certain price point is absolutely fine to great…I could learn these I assume and maybe I just need to buckle my shit down and really see if I can get there with these… After I heard that mix (which probably wouldn’t piss anyone else off necessarily with a few fixes) I just wanted to box them up and take them back. I’m not an OCD guy at all, but when I’m used to something and it gets taken away, I feel like I have no baseline anymore. That make sense? So I get panicky lol. |
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Post by Dan on Jun 5, 2024 10:09:27 GMT -6
What I personally mean by relativity, is often these dialogues about monitoring are happening in the last 5-10% of the equation where alot of gear heads live. That be said of alot gear conversations with professionals or tone maniacs. Countless brands and models are 90-95% there by default, at many different price points. This is where alot of people live and where alot of people make music. And it can sound really great. It is much easier to get to the 95% mark (arbitrary) and call it good. When you are living in the details of your craft, whether for your own interest or for your client, the reality between 95% and the gaps to be where you want to be, might come at a genuine or significant up cost. And there are always exceptions. the problem is a lot of this cheaper stuff or flavor of the month gear is insanely compromised in real world use. see gearslutz threads with guys defending crap over the last couple of years, the cheap chinese and austrailian mics that are totally messed up in the top end, the live sound consoles that are borderline usesless, the cheap monitors with crazy resonances or headroom issues, the cheap circuits that are cleaned up versions of behringer, the awful clones of 60s-80s gear, the dysfunctional plugin eqs that sound like crap over 4 khz, the crappy dynamics processors both analog and digital that just pump stuff around. the high pass filter on my apogee symphony channel strip adds low end noise, the metric halo and harrison channel strip compressors don't really compress, there are plugins and converters still with thousands of degrees of phase shift like old adats and other old junk converters. some of this stuff is technically worse in many ways than some 80s cd players but oh we can go to gearslutz right now and read people defend it as pro.
their excuse is always some producer made a hit song with it that doesn't sound close to high fidelity or natural.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2024 10:16:42 GMT -6
I'll say this - IMO, neither the Amphions or 03's are overly impressive without a sub. Again, you could learn it...but why would you do that if you could end up with something you DON'T have to learn?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2024 16:49:12 GMT -6
After all that… The mix that sounded pretty phenomenal in my studio sounded like shit in the car…I’m actually kind of surprised…I’m sure I could learn them, but the mix levels were…not right in the car…I haven’t had issues with that on the Amphions. Vocals were too low and I made a point of trying to get them right…Bass boomy…just not happy with that at all. Maybe it was just a day when I mixed too long and lost perspective. But like I said - I don’t have that issue with the Amphions… There are things I really like about them, but I’m trying to figure out whether to just cut bait or potentially waste time mixing on them more. Let me say - they sound pretty spectacular with the sub and going through the Trinnov. The bottom/low mids are tighter with the Barefoots and I’d venture to say - by my memory (I’ll be able to have them side by side hopefully here by the end of the weekend. Barefoots sound like hifi speakers designed to flatter rap. You're not wrong. I've never had so much trouble getting a bass to sit right...nothing wrong with the recording, it's just everything is hyped sounding. Now, I'm being hyperbolic to describe what I'm hearing...it's not terrible at all. Like I said...a lot of major label stuff sounds really great - maybe even "cleaner" sounding than the Amphions. But holy shit, this isn't intuitive for mixing...I went back to the shitty Mix I tried on them and I heard stuff that needed changing. Listening in PT again - I thing a lot of that mix could be chalked up to 8 hours straight in the studio... I went back and tried to be very intentional and made a lot of changes. I need to listen in the 4runner, but in the studio, it sounded better for sure. Took a three hour break, came back and it doesn't sound like I want it to sound. Here are my final judgments about the Footprint 03: (unless it's not) They are hyped on the bottom and the top. It's throwing me off big time. I don't know what it is, but the mix sounds over compressed, bloomy on bottom and take an eye out on top (remember, hyperbole for description sake) and I can't figure out how to fix it. I'm also really confused as to how it can be "corrected" by the trinnov and still feel bloomy and bright. Are reproductions of frequencies the same regardless of the speaker? Obviously I guess not - just like a trio of singers can sing the same notes but they all have different resonances and timbre. I have no idea whether that's true or not, but it sounds good. eric svart the speaker dudes GITT |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2024 16:51:18 GMT -6
Everything feels tight and tension-y. Not sure how to describe it - but it sounds "hard."
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 5, 2024 17:01:41 GMT -6
Hmm, sounds like they need to break in, could you just run white noise through them for 1-2 days, before you send them back ?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2024 18:31:23 GMT -6
Hmm, sounds like they need to break in, could you just run white noise through them for 1-2 days, before you send them back ? Yeah I thought about that as I was typing. How loud should it be…or is music better? |
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Post by svart on Jun 5, 2024 18:49:43 GMT -6
Hmm, sounds like they need to break in, could you just run white noise through them for 1-2 days, before you send them back ? Yeah I thought about that as I was typing. How loud should it be…or is music better? White or pink noise, the loudest you can stand it, lol. You're trying to get the speaker suspensions to soften up. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 7, 2024 18:59:21 GMT -6
Yeah...I'm taking them back. The following is my opinion. I find that they tend to be - bottom forward, little foggy/smeary in the 300-800, forward in the 2-4khz and then the top could take your head off if you wanted it to. Maybe it's the flavor of the mids, but they can be pretty harsh and take over the show.
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Post by nick8801 on Jun 7, 2024 19:56:02 GMT -6
So you just gonna stick with the Amphions?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,086 
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Post by ericn on Jun 7, 2024 20:08:21 GMT -6
Yeah...I'm taking them back. The following is my opinion. I find that they tend to be - bottom forward, little foggy/smeary in the 300-800, forward in the 2-4khz and then the top could take your head off if you wanted it to. Maybe it's the flavor of the mids, but they can be pretty harsh and take over the show. That’s kind of consistent with every Barefoot I have heard. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 7, 2024 20:27:10 GMT -6
So you just gonna stick with the Amphions? Yeah…if the tweeter hadn’t blown, I wouldn’t have even demoed. Pardon me…they don’t demo, I had to freaking buy them |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 8, 2024 3:08:42 GMT -6
And that’s the rub, oh well, at least now, you know.
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