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Post by drbill on Mar 7, 2024 9:26:06 GMT -6
I don’t honestly get into the cork sniffing converter thing. There isn’t anything wrong with the newest Hd I/o 16 x 16 box. You’d have no problem making things sound great with it. but I thought k remembered people specifically saying those old HD units sounded bad. Apogee salesmen?  They are not bad. One thing they ARE is very full featured and modular in approach though. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 7, 2024 9:27:17 GMT -6
Those are to-buy, though - not a true demo that can be automatically returned. My Sweetwater dude fights like crazy to not let me return anything. I stopped buying from them as a result. Yeah. I just returned a stream deck and an SPL Big. Need to keep something again before I return. |
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Post by notneeson on Mar 7, 2024 9:30:28 GMT -6
but I thought k remembered people specifically saying those old HD units sounded bad. Apogee salesmen? They are not bad. One thing they ARE is very full featured and modular in approach though. Yeah seriously, a lot of this comes from people who had never been near a real studio regurgitating Fletcher’s opinions as fact back in the day. After tracking in rooms with all the usual suspect converters I found myself seriously underwhelmed by the differences. |
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Post by drbill on Mar 7, 2024 9:30:52 GMT -6
Cool, this is really helpful - so the ones that have the "192" on the left edge of the front faceplate are 1 gen older than the ones that just say "Avid" in that spot? Is that right? Yes. AVID for newer, 192 for older. Also you can tell by the color. The older 192's have a silver-ish faceplate. The HD's are darker grey. |
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 7, 2024 9:32:25 GMT -6
Cool, this is really helpful - so the ones that have the "192" on the left edge of the front faceplate are 1 gen older than the ones that just say "Avid" in that spot? Is that right? Yes. AVID for newer, 192 for older. Also you can tell by the color. The older 192's have a silver-ish faceplate. The HD's are darker grey. That clarifies everything! Thanks DrBill |
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 7, 2024 9:33:56 GMT -6
Those are to-buy, though - not a true demo that can be automatically returned. My Sweetwater dude fights like crazy to not let me return anything. I stopped buying from them as a result. Yeah. I just returned a stream deck and an SPL Big. Need to keep something again before I return. Warning! Don’t watch Colt Capperunes latest video!😆 |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 7, 2024 9:34:36 GMT -6
Yeah. I just returned a stream deck and an SPL Big. Need to keep something again before I return. Warning! Don’t watch Colt Capperunes latest video!😆 I don’t watch any of them |
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 7, 2024 9:35:09 GMT -6
Warning! Don’t watch Colt Capperunes latest video!😆 I don’t watch any of them Good call, the GAS is real! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 7, 2024 9:35:41 GMT -6
Yeah. I just returned a stream deck and an SPL Big. Need to keep something again before I return. Warning! Don’t watch Colt Capperunes latest video!😆 But I have an AS 1178 |
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 7, 2024 9:36:13 GMT -6
Warning! Don’t watch Colt Capperunes latest video!😆 But I have an AS 1178 Well, there you go! You don’t need any more gear👍🏻 Well, maybe just a Carbon!😆 |
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Post by Dan on Mar 7, 2024 9:36:21 GMT -6
id rather use zoom products and stock pro tools or reaper than touch anything Presonus again. Awful experience gainstaging it. The software feels illogical like Logic + Pro Tools + Reaper’s drag and drop. Oh and it’s buggy and they will introduce bugs version to version where Cubase will fix the bugs from the new version quickly and if something in a new version of Reaper is broken, it will get reverted quickly and then added back fixed. Justin and Schwa are good about that. I had terrible bug issues with Studio One which is why I switched to Reaper for a time. But it's been rock solid with all the updates within the last year. Don't know if Fender gets the credit or what, but something changed over there and they now do fewer updates but WAY better stability on the updates. Presonus software is a totally different business unit than the hardware and is in a completely different realm in terms of quality. Their software division is based in Germany (seems like all the great software is?) and seems to be run by very smart people intent on dominating the DAW space someday. The hardware division is based in Baton Rouge and seems to be run by people intent on getting the lowest price points possible to sell the most units possible to entry level buyers. I know the Quantum was a bad experience and many others have verified that, but gain staging within the DAW itself is the picture of simplicity. It's actually part of why I left Illogic. i meant the hardware. the software was made by breakaway steinberg programmers and fender's new corporate overlords seem intent on marketing it to prosumers and musicians instead of fixing the bugs that prevent its adoption. most younger musicians seem to be on reaper or logic if they use any full featured daws and then ableton or fl for the "producers". i still know musicians recording into audacity and garage band. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 7, 2024 9:44:52 GMT -6
Apogee salesmen? They are not bad. One thing they ARE is very full featured and modular in approach though. Yeah seriously, a lot of this comes from people who had never been near a real studio regurgitating Fletcher’s opinions as fact back in the day. After tracking in rooms with all the usual suspect converters I found myself seriously underwhelmed by the differences. remember fletcher's tape levels? overheads not moving the meters and of course with most real world decks, bring up those overheads and you get NOISE.
the real value for apogee was always in the really old stuff you could get dirt cheap and then in some of the first firewire units. what they're currently selling is way better in the real world than the older stuff. the element 88 was great value for money and now the symphony desktop is great and they're trying to sell lower power consumption multichannel converters now. i want to see a new symphony chassis with better thermals. i know guys who have beefed with them over repairs too.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 7, 2024 9:51:08 GMT -6
Well, there you go! You don’t need any more gear👍🏻 Well, maybe just a Carbon!😆 Trying to get this 78 to work with no latency is what’s brought all of this on. |
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 7, 2024 9:56:23 GMT -6
Well, there you go! You don’t need any more gear👍🏻 Well, maybe just a Carbon!😆 Trying to get this 78 to work with no latency is what’s brought all of this on. Oh yes, I see…So, your GAS escalated into an advanced stage of GAS! Well, not to agitate your condition, however when I got my Carbon and plugged in my outboard! That was the first time after ditching the analog board that I was very happy being able to use my outboard effectively again. I need more I/O, so I’m going with a PRE8 soon. The only thing that stinks about the Carbon is I miss my AES/EBU! |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 7, 2024 10:04:58 GMT -6
They are not BAD. They are not quite as good as the HD I/o's though. I have mostly HD's and one 192. It's not night and day, but if it's your only AD/DA, I'd shoot for an HD I/o. 8-10 years more modern. re: perpetuals. I buy one for $400-ish every 2-3 years. Keep it updated for one year, and let it "lapse" for the next 1-2 years. Then rinse and repeat. I'd guess my average yearly cost for HDX is around $150 or so. Again, talk to the right people when you buy. My guy always takes care of me and my clients very well. AVID has a huge markup, but it doesn't have to cost a bloody fortune. Same here, I don't think I've ever paid anywhere near list for anything Avid. I bought the Carbons with $1278.00 off (yeah, seriously) which included Pro Tools Ultimate perpetual license and some additional stuff. The Mbox Pro I bought also at a 30% discount had a Studio perpetual in it, even when I went HDX years back I got a couple of grand back and I got the Digi license free as well.
What gets me is, if they can afford to sell it at this price why not just do it so the price looks more attractive from the get go? It's like the commercial equivalent of Scotty's time fudge, c'aptain it'll take me 4 hours.. Scotty: C'aptain did in 30 minutes, 300 fixes later. Kirk: "this guy's just lying to us at this point", Mariner: "Buffer time wooo"..
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Post by ragan on Mar 7, 2024 10:08:43 GMT -6
Re: converters, I don’t think any of this stuff will hamper great recordings in any meaningful way.
Last time I was shopping for conversion, a friend and I did blind tests between BF Apollo, Symphony MKII, and the then-current Avid box. I think it was like 16x16 Omni or something like that? It was around 2018. We just did a bunch of loop back testing and ranked them blind. We both picked Symphony MKII -> BF Apollo -> Avid box. Wasn’t huge difference but we were both kinda underwhelmed with the Avid unit.
I’d still probably pick workflow over sonics.
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 7, 2024 10:08:58 GMT -6
They are not BAD. They are not quite as good as the HD I/o's though. I have mostly HD's and one 192. It's not night and day, but if it's your only AD/DA, I'd shoot for an HD I/o. 8-10 years more modern. re: perpetuals. I buy one for $400-ish every 2-3 years. Keep it updated for one year, and let it "lapse" for the next 1-2 years. Then rinse and repeat. I'd guess my average yearly cost for HDX is around $150 or so. Again, talk to the right people when you buy. My guy always takes care of me and my clients very well. AVID has a huge markup, but it doesn't have to cost a bloody fortune. Same here, I don't think I've ever paid anywhere near list for anything Avid. I bought the Carbons with $1278.00 off (yeah, seriously) which included Pro Tools Ultimate perpetual license and some additional stuff. The Mbox Pro I bought also at a 30% discount had a Studio perpetual in it, even when I went HDX years back I got a couple of grand back and I got the Digi license free as well.
What gets me is, if they can afford to sell it at this price why not just do it so the price looks more attractive from the get go? It's like the commercial equivalent of Scotty's time fudge, c'aptain it'll take me 4 hours.. Scotty: C'aptain did in 30 minutes, 300 fixes later. Kirk: "this guy's just lying to us at this point", Mariner: "Buffer time wooo"..
I’m about to get an Avid PRE8, can you hook a brotha up? |
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 7, 2024 10:09:23 GMT -6
Same here, I don't think I've ever paid anywhere near list for anything Avid. I bought the Carbons with $1278.00 off (yeah, seriously) which included Pro Tools Ultimate perpetual license and some additional stuff. The Mbox Pro I bought also at a 30% discount had a Studio perpetual in it, even when I went HDX years back I got a couple of grand back and I got the Digi license free as well.
What gets me is, if they can afford to sell it at this price why not just do it so the price looks more attractive from the get go? It's like the commercial equivalent of Scotty's time fudge, c'aptain it'll take me 4 hours.. Scotty: C'aptain did in 30 minutes, 300 fixes later. Kirk: "this guy's just lying to us at this point", Mariner: "Buffer time wooo"..
I’m about to get an Avid PRE8, can you hook an Avid Audio brotha up? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 7, 2024 10:09:34 GMT -6
Trying to get this 78 to work with no latency is what’s brought all of this on. Oh yes, I see…So, your GAS escalated into an advanced stage of GAS! Well, not to agitate your condition, however when I got my Carbon and plugged in my outboard! That was the first time after ditching the analog board that I was very happy being able to use my outboard effectively again. I need more I/O, so I’m going with a PRE8 soon. The only thing that stinks about the Carbon is I miss my AES/EBU! Damnit. You’re costing me money. |
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 7, 2024 10:10:33 GMT -6
Oh yes, I see…So, your GAS escalated into an advanced stage of GAS! Well, not to agitate your condition, however when I got my Carbon and plugged in my outboard! That was the first time after ditching the analog board that I was very happy being able to use my outboard effectively again. I need more I/O, so I’m going with a PRE8 soon. The only thing that stinks about the Carbon is I miss my AES/EBU! Damnit. You’re costing me money. That wasn’t my intention, I just think it will save you a lot of headache searching for a solution. Yes, they aren’t cheap dammit!!! One day when I hit the lottery😆, I’ll jump into a DrBill rig! Then I will be able to use all my outboard!🤟🏻 Another thing I thought about when going Carbon is it will force me into a smaller more manageable setup, and I won’t be upgrading my monitoring system for almost the same price as a Carbon! I would demo it first! Find a demo and try it. I am curious to hear what you think about the product and if it fits your workflow and solves your issues, and maybe even your GAS? 😆 And not going to even mention the STA, oops😆 One of the boxes on my list because you kept talking about it! 😆 I had a Doublewide, it was ok, but didn’t thrill me, and it was sold. |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 7, 2024 10:17:23 GMT -6
That wasn’t my intention. It's generally mine, if you've got GAS it's best to just release it.  |
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 7, 2024 10:21:00 GMT -6
That wasn’t my intention. It's generally mine, if you've got GAS it's best to just release it. I’m terrible, I hope the Lord can forgive my sudden GAS! It can be terrible at times. I keep thinking about how nice 24 I/O would be all wrapped up in three Carbon units with my outboard connected! Just an Audio Heaven! |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 7, 2024 10:26:43 GMT -6
I had terrible bug issues with Studio One which is why I switched to Reaper for a time. But it's been rock solid with all the updates within the last year. Don't know if Fender gets the credit or what, but something changed over there and they now do fewer updates but WAY better stability on the updates. Presonus software is a totally different business unit than the hardware and is in a completely different realm in terms of quality. Their software division is based in Germany (seems like all the great software is?) and seems to be run by very smart people intent on dominating the DAW space someday. The hardware division is based in Baton Rouge and seems to be run by people intent on getting the lowest price points possible to sell the most units possible to entry level buyers. I know the Quantum was a bad experience and many others have verified that, but gain staging within the DAW itself is the picture of simplicity. It's actually part of why I left Illogic. i meant the hardware. the software was made by breakaway steinberg programmers and fender's new corporate overlords seem intent on marketing it to prosumers and musicians instead of fixing the bugs that prevent its adoption. most younger musicians seem to be on reaper or logic if they use any full featured daws and then ableton or fl for the "producers". i still know musicians recording into audacity and garage band. I mean Logic is bug city. I don't use ProTools but plenty of folks complain about years old ProTools bugs. The only DAW that isn't bug ridden is Reaper and that's because they use native graphics instead of building their own UI. That's really smart from a stability perspective but it's also why it looks the way it does. Even at its worst Studio One was more stable than ILLogic. But it really is way, way more stable than before. I say that as someone who bailed because of the dreaded export bug. It's smooth as silk these days. Oh yeah, and someone finally told me to never use AU in Studio One. That helped too. Studio One's manual is good but it's forums and online support are virtually useless. That's one thing Logic and ProTools have going for them, millions of people to point you in the right direction. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 7, 2024 10:32:47 GMT -6
Re: converters, I don’t think any of this stuff will hamper great recordings in any meaningful way. Last time I was shopping for conversion, a friend and I did blind tests between BF Apollo, Symphony MKII, and the then-current Avid box. I think it was like 16x16 Omni or something like that? It was around 2018. We just did a bunch of loop back testing and ranked them blind. We both picked Symphony MKII -> BF Apollo -> Avid box. Wasn’t huge difference but we were both kinda underwhelmed with the Avid unit. I’d still probably pick workflow over sonics. The main thing I've noticed is you get a little more clarity for some guitarists' tones or nice things people have or subtle itb processrs that can be lost. Most of this is probably the analog circuitry not being great. I cannot tell the difference between a lot of distortions on cheaper, "warm" sounding converters like MOTU and the SPL Crimson/Madison. This effects my ability to dial things in to please the client.
The top end can also be awful or lost from some things with prosumer circuitry that distorts if it goes through it or minimum phase anti-alias filters in the outputs if loopbacked. Not generally recent Avid converters or something like an Apollo. Think Focusrite, Behringer, and RME.
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Post by christopher on Mar 7, 2024 10:34:52 GMT -6
If we are thinking carbon, would MTRX be smarter for 25% more?
Or is Carbon/MTRX still some sort of compromise because it’s not the HDX racks?
Dante would be nice for running snakes… unless there’s some downside I don’t know about
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