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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 22, 2024 16:59:50 GMT -6
Thoughts ?
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 22, 2024 17:06:51 GMT -6
Firstly, don't listen to that intro on full range monitors or your windows will be shaking.. Secondly I much prefer ARC to Sonarworks and now it's on HW form, I'll buy the crap out of it..
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 22, 2024 17:19:15 GMT -6
$299 including the Mike, very good value.
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Post by Quint on Feb 22, 2024 18:10:22 GMT -6
I'm a little skeptical of running my expensive monitors and expensive conversion and expensive monitor controller with a $299 box in between it all. The AD and DA on a $299 box (where $150 of that cost is the software and the mic costs $?) can't be anything special, no? But I WANT this to be the exception.  |
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Post by andersmv on Feb 22, 2024 18:18:44 GMT -6
I’m reaching out to them about reviewing this. I’m happy with what SonarWorks is doing for me sonically, but work flow wise it’s a pain in the ass splitting my workflow between my UA Apollo and physical analog console. I’ve needed an outboard solution for a while and just not willing to jump full on into Trinnov land…
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Post by dok on Feb 22, 2024 18:30:38 GMT -6
Firstly, don't listen to that intro on full range monitors or your windows will be shaking.. Secondly I much prefer ARC to Sonarworks and now it's on HW form, I'll buy the crap out of it.. Can you speak about the differences? Sonarworks has been pretty great over here but I've never tried anything else. Have you measured the results after applying both, and how would you quantify the difference? |
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Post by Quint on Feb 22, 2024 21:03:44 GMT -6
I’m reaching out to them about reviewing this. I’m happy with what SonarWorks is doing for me sonically, but work flow wise it’s a pain in the ass splitting my workflow between my UA Apollo and physical analog console. I’ve needed an outboard solution for a while and just not willing to jump full on into Trinnov land… Dirac seems more affordable, but not so cheap that I'm automatically skeptical that passing thru the AD/DA will degrade things. And Trinnov IS expensive. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 22, 2024 21:41:32 GMT -6
Firstly, don't listen to that intro on full range monitors or your windows will be shaking.. Secondly I much prefer ARC to Sonarworks and now it's on HW form, I'll buy the crap out of it.. Interesting, my experience was exactly the opposite. Never quite got along with Arc but just got Sonarworks and I love it. Why do you prefer Arc? What’s it doing for you that SW isn’t? |
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Post by andersmv on Feb 22, 2024 21:59:49 GMT -6
I’m reaching out to them about reviewing this. I’m happy with what SonarWorks is doing for me sonically, but work flow wise it’s a pain in the ass splitting my workflow between my UA Apollo and physical analog console. I’ve needed an outboard solution for a while and just not willing to jump full on into Trinnov land… Dirac seems more affordable, but not so cheap that I'm automatically skeptical that passing thru the AD/DA will degrade things. And Trinnov IS expensive. I tried Dirac at the same time I got Sonarworks. Dirac sounded kind of weird and just "off" to me in my space, Sonarworks immediately seemed to tackle a lot of the issues I was having and didn't feel like completely different speakers. Plenty of people out there saying the opposite, I never really read into it that much and just went with Sonarworks. The workflow wasn't too frustrating. I'm about to upgrade my monitoring again, hopefully for the "last time"  . I've had my Barefoot MM45's for a bit now and want to add the pair of Barefoot subs for them, keeping an eye out for a good deal on some used ones. At that point, part of me feels guilty NOT considering something like the Trinnov system. But at the same time, I'm not made of money and it's going to mean spending as much on the room correction system as I am on the speaker upgrade... Maybe one day, but at this point I have to prioritize and kind of "baby step" towards the Trinnov system one day. At this point, I would be happy just to get rid of the plugin hovering in the background and over my mix bus. I've gotten used to it, but it's frustrating during large tracking sessions. I'll sacrifice the theoretical blasphemy of pairing my expensive speakers with another "lowly" stage of conversion in a box to make my life easier.... |
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 23, 2024 5:06:06 GMT -6
I did a lot of research into this because as Quint rightly stated when you've got a $3K - $15K set of monitors you don't want a cheap piece of software (or hardware) messing with it. Plus my REW results aren't that bad already +-4dB down to 40Hz(ish). Firstly I agree with this review: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/comparison-of-drcs-dirac-live-for-studio-ik-multimedia-arc-system-3-and-sonarworks-reference-4-studio-edition.18607/Quote: "Sonarworks Reference 4 Studio edition - I couldn't make myself agree with this one  Sure, there are some nice features there (plus great systemwide version and some extensive headphone EQ options) so I'm sure it works great for many - but lack of filter sharpness, true correction range limiting and detailed target curve editing are for now deal-breakers for me."
It's not like ARC is perfect, as in target curves however Sonarworks has always sounded a bit weird to me. IME, I would never use linear phase (go zero latency instead) and I didn't often use it 100% wet because I got pre-ringing and a blurry image. I not a fan of the filters they use (it seemed a bit phasey), I ran a REW report and corrected via a Tokyo Dawn EQ on the monitor outs and it just sounded so much better. I didn't have most of these issues with ARC but there's no systemwide version so I gave that one up too TBH, at the moment I don't use any sort of correction but with this that might change.
IME Genelec GLM is the best that I've tried (I can't afford Trinnov at the moment), the only issue is I'd have to buy some Genelec monitors. Not that I have an issue with them, it's just I like my Dyn's..
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 23, 2024 7:03:50 GMT -6
Interesting, my experience was exactly the opposite. Never quite got along with Arc but just got Sonarworks and I love it. Hmm, interesting. How come you didn't get along with Arc and which version did you use? I bought Arc 3.. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 23, 2024 7:05:35 GMT -6
ShadowkI have tried Sonarworks 3 X’s, but always end up not using it. I think many don’t realize that REW can be used to create a very accurate eq correction curve. I think only trinnov corrects for time domain issues, but costs a lot more.
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 23, 2024 7:32:04 GMT -6
This is a good overview but all it does is make me want the Trinnov even more.
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Post by andersmv on Feb 23, 2024 8:15:52 GMT -6
This is a good overview but all it does is make me want the Trinnov even more. I'll probably give the Trinnov a try at some point and save up, but it's a lot of $$... At almost $4k, I almost feel like it would be a better investment to really deep dive into fixing the problems in my room and doing some really specific acoustical treatment and just stick with the IK Arc (with the "hope" that at the end of that process, the room correction is going to be doing very little). At any rate, I've got a few friends with a Trinnov system that have their Trinnov mic sitting in the closet, so I can at least save a little bit of money and borrow a mic from someone to set it up . It was always weird to me that Trinnov makes you buy their mic. They should have set up some sort of "mic share" system where they send you one when you buy a system, then you ship it back to them when you're done. If you ever need it again, just put in a request. I know a lot of studios with money to burn would want one sitting in their closet just for the piece of mind, but it's an aweful lot of money for something that probably 75% of people are going to use once and never touch it again... |
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Post by svart on Feb 23, 2024 8:19:13 GMT -6
I know folks love room calibrators but I just see them as gimmicks. You either trust your room and learn it or you don't. I feel like these things are just placebos for performance anxiety.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 23, 2024 8:37:18 GMT -6
That’s basically what I thought for myself, like a delta, each non performance thing I am correcting/altering in my mix is identifying a recurring/inherent problem in my room/monitors, so how can I mentally recalibrate for that?
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Post by svart on Feb 23, 2024 8:52:29 GMT -6
That’s basically what I thought for myself, like a delta, each non performance thing I am correcting/altering in my mix is identifying a recurring/inherent problem in my room/monitors, so how can I mentally recalibrate for that? I guess what I'm saying is that if you're always looking for something wrong, you will always find something wrong. It's a rabbit hole that can never be filled since it comes from worry about your end result.. But the problem is that you'll never have a stable end result if you're always changing things. If you're always changing things, then you can never have a stable mental calibration. You'd have to recalibrate your ears and mind every single time you change something. I used to do it with gear modding and honestly, I lost the forest in the trees with it all. Sometimes you just got to use what you have as-it-is. And the whole marketing concept of these things is essentially "Buy this thing and never worry about your room again!", which is why I feel like they're coming across as placebos. You exchange money to alleviate a worry that is likely overblown in most cases. I mean, for pete's sake people are making hit records with NS-10's and folks are worried about whether their room is perfect. |
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 23, 2024 9:04:45 GMT -6
For what it's worth, I never turn on Sonarworks anymore. I hated the change in tone to my speakers. Plus it cut level so I could never accurately gage level. Did it help with mixing? Sometimes? I definitely enjoy working more without it.
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 23, 2024 9:13:30 GMT -6
I guess what I'm saying is that if you're always looking for something wrong, you will always find something wrong. It's a rabbit hole that can never be filled since it comes from worry about your end result.. But the problem is that you'll never have a stable end result if you're always changing things. If you're always changing things, then you can never have a stable mental calibration. You'd have to recalibrate your ears and mind every single time you change something. I mean, for pete's sake people are making hit records with NS-10's and folks are worried about whether their room is perfect. I agree with everything you're saying but if it does make life easier than why not? I've had monitor setup's where there were just too much guesswork going on, that resulted in testing on tons of other devices to get a baseline then going earblind. Usually though, since the new room, Dyn's (LYD or Core) I just use calibration as a 20 second reference, if nothing sticks out then it's back to using monitors as they are.
Although ultimately you are right and sometimes I've just used headphones..
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 23, 2024 9:25:59 GMT -6
If you change once and learn that, that makes sense.
It’s what I never liked about the slate headphone idea, multiple environments : too much variation for me.
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Post by svart on Feb 23, 2024 9:26:45 GMT -6
I guess what I'm saying is that if you're always looking for something wrong, you will always find something wrong. It's a rabbit hole that can never be filled since it comes from worry about your end result.. But the problem is that you'll never have a stable end result if you're always changing things. If you're always changing things, then you can never have a stable mental calibration. You'd have to recalibrate your ears and mind every single time you change something. I mean, for pete's sake people are making hit records with NS-10's and folks are worried about whether their room is perfect. I agree with everything you're saying but if it does make life easier than why not? I've had monitor setup's where there were just too much guesswork going on, that resulted in testing on tons of other devices to get a baseline then going earblind. Usually though, since the new room, Dyn's (LYD or Core) I just use calibration as a 20 second reference, if nothing sticks out then it's back to using monitors as they are.
Although ultimately you are right and sometimes I've just used headphones..
People are certainly free to do what they want. I just offer (what I hope) is a different viewpoint. At 300$ it's certainly more palatable than 3000$, but then folks will just wonder "if I only spent 300$ is it really as good as the 3000$ option?".. Because it all comes from doubt.. Doubt doesn't just go away without some kind of self-reflection. You always end up trading up, or buying something else or swapping things around in search of perfection. I know, because I've been there myself and I still do it sometimes! let's face it, all of marketing is predatory. You're never cool enough, pretty enough, sound good enough, etc.. You NEED this product to go the extra mile in life!!! |
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Post by mcirish on Feb 23, 2024 9:49:13 GMT -6
I know folks love room calibrators but I just see them as gimmicks. You either trust your room and learn it or you don't. I feel like these things are just placebos for performance anxiety. I have to totally disagree with this. No disrtespect at all. My room is well treated but still has some serious issues. The uneveness in the lows and low midrange made me add way more 80HZ to a bass than I really needed. After getting sonarworks quite a few years ago, all the second guessing went away. I never get mixes pushed back to me from mastering now. I know Sonarworks is not perfect. I've used it since version 3 and now it's on version 5 SoundID. Some of their updates have been amazingly buggy, but I found a beta release from last summer that is rock solid. No crashes and my mixes translate. I'm fairly old (62) and I never could get mixes to translate. I hated having to trick my ears into making moves that I can't hear correctly. Room correction software solves that for me. I now just make the instruments sound like what I want and it's good. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Feb 23, 2024 9:59:44 GMT -6
I hear what you’re saying, svart, and I’m sympathetic to it for sure. So much marketing is about exploiting our anxieties. But even so, Johnkenn has said many times here just what a huge difference Trinnov has made in his room. He’s said over and over he would sell a bunch of other stuff before the Trinnov. So it makes me think there’s really something to it. Now, I’m not in any danger of buying one myself right now (too many other puzzles I’m trying to solve at the moment), but I like the way John hears things, so what he’s said definitely makes me pay attention. |
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Post by ragan on Feb 23, 2024 10:18:50 GMT -6
I use Sonarworks and really like it. The corrective curve it applied after doing the calibration process is not severe, but immediately sounded clearer, mostly in the low/low-mid range. I went back and forth for a bit but I could just objectively hear more clearly what was going on with SW engaged, so I’ve used it ever since, for several years now. I love the systemwide feature, so I never have to think about whether it’s engaged or not and I’m always listening to everything consistently. I dunno, I don’t feel like I’m chasing any sort of never-ending self-doubt. It’s just a tool that works well and I’m satisfied with it.
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Post by svart on Feb 23, 2024 10:22:12 GMT -6
I hear what you’re saying, svart , and I’m sympathetic to it for sure. So much marketing is about exploiting our anxieties. But even so, Johnkenn has said many times here just what a huge difference Trinnov has made in his room. He’s said over and over he would sell a bunch of other stuff before the Trinnov. So it makes me think there’s really something to it. Now, I’m not in any danger of buying one myself right now (too many other puzzles I’m trying to solve at the moment), but I like the way John hears things, so what he’s said definitely makes me pay attention. Let me say this.. John is a great producer and a great mixer. I've listened to the stuff he's posted throughout the years and honestly I haven't heard a lot of the problems in his work that he does. I'm not saying that it's not there or that he's hearing things, but I think we're all our own worst enemies when it comes to wanting perfection. If someone wants to use room correction, then so be it. But I can't help but wondering how many people are doing fine work, like John, but fall prey to "what if".. |
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. I've had my Barefoot MM45's for a bit now and want to add the pair of Barefoot subs for them, keeping an eye out for a good deal on some used ones. At that point, part of me feels guilty NOT considering something like the Trinnov system. But at the same time, I'm not made of money and it's going to mean spending as much on the room correction system as I am on the speaker upgrade... 
Sure, there are some nice features there (plus great systemwide version and some extensive headphone EQ options) so I'm sure it works great for many - but lack of filter sharpness, true correction range limiting and detailed target curve editing are for now deal-breakers for me."
