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Post by mcirish on Feb 28, 2024 15:20:34 GMT -6
Digging in a little deeper, I see Arc does not have any profiles for headphones. I use the headphone profiles in Sonarworks all the time. I had Arc studio in my cart, all ready to buy, but didn't do it.
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Post by wiz on Feb 28, 2024 17:09:45 GMT -6
Johnkenn you should demo this and compare to your Trinnov..... might free up some cash.. might not cheers Wiz
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 28, 2024 17:26:43 GMT -6
But trinnov corrects time domain issues, neither Sonarworks or Arc do that .
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Post by mcirish on Feb 29, 2024 6:55:33 GMT -6
Trinnov and Dirac can fix time domain issues but they both add latency. If you track live through your Daw, that latency would make it unusable. Dirac is 23ms and I believe Trinnov is higher. I'd have to turn off Dirac or Trinnov to track with VST instruments. I couldn't figure out how to play that ahead of the beat to compensate.
I may still try Arc Studio. 1.4ms is workable. Sonarworks can be set for zero latency. I guess I'm pretty used to that. I'd have to change how I recorded if I change systems. That was something I had not thought about till yesterday. Everything is a compromise.
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Post by Quint on Feb 29, 2024 8:29:53 GMT -6
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Post by mcirish on Feb 29, 2024 9:14:21 GMT -6
That's a thought Quint. A mini Mac or mini PC could be configured to do the processing. At that point, it makes me think about creating a custom impulse response of the room correction and just load that into a convolution reverb, thus bypassing any potentially buggy software alltogether. hmmm... lots of options and things to think about.
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Post by christopher on Feb 29, 2024 13:23:35 GMT -6
I decided to try the ARC software again, using a LDC, on my 40+ year old KEF 105s.
Last time I tried the NS10’s and it was.. interesting and weird. It extended them out into the sub area, and stretched them up to 15k. The surprising thing was it showed NS10s measured mostly very flat from 500-8k before things start to roll off. ARC took away the boxy lows, really made the 10’s sound yuck after that, lol. BUT it could be useful I guess.
This time on the KEFs w/ mono sub.. way better experience. It did kill all lows in the room, made these giant robots sound like little tiny desktop speakers. The tweeter is smooth enough that it’s not nasty or grainy though, still have a good top end. I didn’t notice any phases weirdness, just clean. I guess my KEFs rolled off too, probably why I like them.. this extended them, so pop reference could hear all the air. I tried some quick mixing, different but kinda nice not to have any lows at all to give fatigue even with a sub on. For low end to get more lows I go to the edit tab, it can bypass lows up to 200 Hz. Also I bypass the plug.
This was a temp setup for me, gonna move them to a more permanent position. But I’m impressed
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 29, 2024 15:30:26 GMT -6
Trinnov and Dirac can fix time domain issues but they both add latency. If you track live through your Daw, that latency would make it unusable. Dirac is 23ms and I believe Trinnov is higher. I'd have to turn off Dirac or Trinnov to track with VST instruments. I couldn't figure out how to play that ahead of the beat to compensate. I may still try Arc Studio. 1.4ms is workable. Sonarworks can be set for zero latency. I guess I'm pretty used to that. I'd have to change how I recorded if I change systems. That was something I had not thought about till yesterday. Everything is a compromise. Uh...there's a bypass button |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 29, 2024 15:31:53 GMT -6
Oh - and reduce the latency of the TRinnov? |
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 29, 2024 15:33:37 GMT -6
Do you guys have issues with your monitors and room treatment?
I don't fully understand what these various boxes are doing beyond EQ'ing the stereo feed.
Well I know they do more than just EQ but still, what is triggering wanting one, are you having mix translation issues?
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 29, 2024 15:41:58 GMT -6
Trinnov and Dirac can fix time domain issues but they both add latency. If you track live through your Daw, that latency would make it unusable. Dirac is 23ms and I believe Trinnov is higher. I'd have to turn off Dirac or Trinnov to track with VST instruments. I couldn't figure out how to play that ahead of the beat to compensate. I may still try Arc Studio. 1.4ms is workable. Sonarworks can be set for zero latency. I guess I'm pretty used to that. I'd have to change how I recorded if I change systems. That was something I had not thought about till yesterday. Everything is a compromise. Unless you're room is utterly pants and you somehow can't get hold of headphones I'm not sure why this would be an issue? If someone's room really is so bad that you can't ballpark for a good tracking session, room correction units wouldn't be my first choice of things to purchase. I'd be asking GIK questions, using their room designer thingy and buying some treatment. I think room correction HW can help a bit with things like less than ideal shaped rooms or mix consistency but again if I couldn't crank out decent recordings or mixes without it I'd be looking at the room or even monitors. IME some speaker setups just don't work all that well in some rooms, my current setup isn’t a fan of rear ported as it causes all sorts of issues and despite GLM being so sophisticated (that does support time domain coherence and it also gives you a full room report with tips on how to improve it) the SW couldn't correct completely for the room itself. Front ported or sealed I have no issues with, ahh well.
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Post by mcirish on Feb 29, 2024 16:17:23 GMT -6
Trinnov and Dirac can fix time domain issues but they both add latency. If you track live through your Daw, that latency would make it unusable. Dirac is 23ms and I believe Trinnov is higher. I'd have to turn off Dirac or Trinnov to track with VST instruments. I couldn't figure out how to play that ahead of the beat to compensate. I may still try Arc Studio. 1.4ms is workable. Sonarworks can be set for zero latency. I guess I'm pretty used to that. I'd have to change how I recorded if I change systems. That was something I had not thought about till yesterday. Everything is a compromise. Unless you're room is utterly pants and you somehow can't get hold of headphones I'm not sure why this would be an issue? If someone's room really is so bad that you can't ballpark for a good tracking session, room correction units wouldn't be my first choice of things to purchase. I'd be asking GIK questions, using their room designer thingy and buying some treatment. I think room correction HW can help a bit with things like less than ideal shaped rooms or mix consistency but again if I couldn't crank out decent recordings or mixes without it I'd be looking at the room or even monitors. IME some speaker setups just don't work all that well in some rooms, my current setup isn’t a fan of rear ported as it causes all sorts of issues and despite GLM being so sophisticated (that does support time domain coherence and it also gives you a full room report with tips on how to improve it) the SW couldn't correct completely for the room itself. Front ported or sealed I have no issues with, ahh well.
Of course for tracking I can turn off room correction. I was just speaking generally on latency. My studio sounds pretty good and I only have a couple areas in the low end that can't be flattened out without some room correction EQ. I can and did track and mix for decades without any EQ help. But, after working with Sonarworks, I wouldn't go back. Too much guessing. My room would never be able to be made perfect. Watching Eric Valentine go through his studio build was encouraging to see even him struggle with some peaks and nulls due to room modes. I didn't mean to upset anyone with my observations. Just kind of talking outloud... I've posted enough on this. |
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Post by Quint on Feb 29, 2024 16:23:13 GMT -6
Oh - and reduce the latency of the TRinnov? Trinnov is all strictly hardware, correct? They don't sell standalone software, correct? If so, what I'm talking about wouldn't apply to Trinnov. I was just simply saying that somebody could essentially recreate the same thing as these turnkey hardware solutions, like that offered from Trinnov, Dirac, and now IK ARC. The benefit being that you could use your own converters of choice and use whatever room correction software you like (among the available standalone software programs like Sonarworks, etc.). As for latency, I'm not sure what the latency from Trinnov is, but it seems like you could get pretty good latency numbers running a Mac Mini setup, as I described, especially considering that room correction would be the only job you'd be asking the Mac Mini to do. No DAW. No nothing else. It'd just come down to how latent the software itself is. Since Sonarworks, for example, has a low latency mode, it seems like you could use a Mac Mini setup like this with Sonarworks to run with pretty low latency. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 29, 2024 17:20:18 GMT -6
Trinnov and Dirac can fix time domain issues but they both add latency. If you track live through your Daw, that latency would make it unusable. Dirac is 23ms and I believe Trinnov is higher. I'd have to turn off Dirac or Trinnov to track with VST instruments. I couldn't figure out how to play that ahead of the beat to compensate. I may still try Arc Studio. 1.4ms is workable. Sonarworks can be set for zero latency. I guess I'm pretty used to that. I'd have to change how I recorded if I change systems. That was something I had not thought about till yesterday. Everything is a compromise. Unless you're room is utterly pants and you somehow can't get hold of headphones I'm not sure why this would be an issue? If someone's room really is so bad that you can't ballpark for a good tracking session, room correction units wouldn't be my first choice of things to purchase. I'd be asking GIK questions, using their room designer thingy and buying some treatment. I think room correction HW can help a bit with things like less than ideal shaped rooms or mix consistency but again if I couldn't crank out decent recordings or mixes without it I'd be looking at the room or even monitors. IME some speaker setups just don't work all that well in some rooms, my current setup isn’t a fan of rear ported as it causes all sorts of issues and despite GLM being so sophisticated (that does support time domain coherence and it also gives you a full room report with tips on how to improve it) the SW couldn't correct completely for the room itself. Front ported or sealed I have no issues with, ahh well. OK. Lets clarify some things. No one - No one - is telling anyone to not treat their room. That's absolutely step one. But that's not a financial or viable option for some. Two, headphones are notoriously not-flat. The Slate thing is pretty good - at least it sounded similar to my setup when I tried them. I think we're conflating tracking and mixing too. It's not designed for tracking. And - of course we would suggest working on room acoustics before suggesting the Trinnov. And I'm not trying to be a jerk - typing can come off badly - but when you make the comment like "I think room correction HW can help a bit with things like less than ideal shaped rooms or mix consistency but again if I couldn't crank out decent recordings or mixes without it I'd be looking at the room or even monitors." That immediately tells me you've never used one. I don't doubt for one second that there are rooms that are done so well, the trinnov wouldn't be worth the price. But I also know that some of the best mastering guys in town use them and love them. Someone asked "why are you wanting this thing are you having translation issues? I don't have translation issues anymore. What I hear in the room now translates everywhere. The idea of "learning" a room - which I've certainly done - is like trying to paint a portrait of someone but their reflection is coming from a funhouse mirror. Can it be done? Absolutely. But why would you prefer doing it that way? I just cannot mix something to sound wrong on purpose. Oh - and like McIrish...I'm gonna bow out. I find it to be the most important tool in my studio, but YMMV. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 29, 2024 17:26:21 GMT -6
And not sure about Arc but SW and the Trinnov have a bypass button so you can hear how things sound without them in place.
On the latency, we don't use softsynths much if at all so I've got a little mixer that gives us zero latency and then move stuff if needed in the session.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 29, 2024 17:26:42 GMT -6
Unless you're room is utterly pants and you somehow can't get hold of headphones I'm not sure why this would be an issue? If someone's room really is so bad that you can't ballpark for a good tracking session, room correction units wouldn't be my first choice of things to purchase. I'd be asking GIK questions, using their room designer thingy and buying some treatment. I think room correction HW can help a bit with things like less than ideal shaped rooms or mix consistency but again if I couldn't crank out decent recordings or mixes without it I'd be looking at the room or even monitors. IME some speaker setups just don't work all that well in some rooms, my current setup isn’t a fan of rear ported as it causes all sorts of issues and despite GLM being so sophisticated (that does support time domain coherence and it also gives you a full room report with tips on how to improve it) the SW couldn't correct completely for the room itself. Front ported or sealed I have no issues with, ahh well. OK. Lets clarify some things. No one - No one - is telling anyone to not treat their room. That's absolutely step one. But that's not a financial or viable option for some. Two, headphones are notoriously not-flat. The Slate thing is pretty good - at least it sounded similar to my setup when I tried them. I think we're conflating tracking and mixing too. It's not designed for tracking. And - of course we would suggest working on room acoustics before suggesting the Trinnov. And I'm not trying to be a jerk - typing can come off badly - but when you make the comment like "I think room correction HW can help a bit with things like less than ideal shaped rooms or mix consistency but again if I couldn't crank out decent recordings or mixes without it I'd be looking at the room or even monitors." That immediately tells me you've never used one. I don't doubt for one second that there are rooms that are done so well, the trinnov wouldn't be worth the price. But I also know that some of the best mastering guys in town use them and love them. Someone asked "why are you wanting this thing are you having translation issues? I don't have translation issues anymore. What I hear in the room now translates everywhere. The idea of "learning" a room - which I've certainly done - is like trying to paint a portrait of someone but their reflection is coming from a funhouse mirror. Can it be done? Absolutely. But why would you prefer doing it that way? I just cannot mix something to sound wrong on purpose. Oh - and like McIrish...I'm gonna bow out. I find it to be the most important tool in my studio, but YMMV. BTW - I said "we would suggest." I meant RGO peeps. Just wanted to clarify that I paid full price for my Trinnov and have zero relationship with them. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 29, 2024 18:49:09 GMT -6
Trinnov and Dirac can fix time domain issues but they both add latency. If you track live through your Daw, that latency would make it unusable. Dirac is 23ms and I believe Trinnov is higher. I'd have to turn off Dirac or Trinnov to track with VST instruments. I couldn't figure out how to play that ahead of the beat to compensate. I may still try Arc Studio. 1.4ms is workable. Sonarworks can be set for zero latency. I guess I'm pretty used to that. I'd have to change how I recorded if I change systems. That was something I had not thought about till yesterday. Everything is a compromise. Why would you have either on for tracking, just monitor on headphones? I don’t understand having room correction on for tracking: what’s the point ? |
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 29, 2024 19:07:37 GMT -6
OK. Lets clarify some things. No one - No one - is telling anyone to not treat their room. That's absolutely step one. But that's not a financial or viable option for some. Two, headphones are notoriously not-flat. The Slate thing is pretty good - at least it sounded similar to my setup when I tried them. I think we're conflating tracking and mixing too. It's not designed for tracking. And - of course we would suggest working on room acoustics before suggesting the Trinnov. And I'm not trying to be a jerk - typing can come off badly - but when you make the comment like "I think room correction HW can help a bit with things like less than ideal shaped rooms or mix consistency but again if I couldn't crank out decent recordings or mixes without it I'd be looking at the room or even monitors." That immediately tells me you've never used one. Used what? I've had GLM with Genelec (the one's) which can AFAIK do everything Trinnov can and I've got ARC. You want photo's to prove it? Got plenty. I'm not saying that room correction isn't an invaulable tool but still Svart is right we've got along pretty well without it for decades, some of the field engineering rooms I was in were pretty crap. Part of the journey is just learning the room, headphones or monitors. I'm not saying that it works every time but again Svart was right, we've mixed on NS10's and I mean they are simply not good monitors.
My point is, there is room for compromise here. You're not damned if you don't have it with some graft and compared to Trinnov which is what $5K here? I mean I could hire an acoustic designer, buy tons of treatment and pocket a couple of thousand so it's certainly not the financially viable way to go. Yes, the room is the most expensive part of all of this and I've been in situations where my house wasn't up to it. It's not like I'd stop just because though..
I didn't take it like you was coming off like a jerk but I wouldn't necessarily make assumptions, I'm fortunate in one way being somewhere where you can demo just about anything even if that comes with a hefty price tag in general purchasing.  .. It's just a conversation John, you do whatever works best for you. It's the results that count in the end, nothing else. |
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 29, 2024 19:24:42 GMT -6
Of course for tracking I can turn off room correction. I was just speaking generally on latency. My studio sounds pretty good and I only have a couple areas in the low end that can't be flattened out without some room correction EQ. I can and did track and mix for decades without any EQ help. But, after working with Sonarworks, I wouldn't go back. Too much guessing. My room would never be able to be made perfect. Watching Eric Valentine go through his studio build was encouraging to see even him struggle with some peaks and nulls due to room modes. I didn't mean to upset anyone with my observations. Just kind of talking outloud... I've posted enough on this. Upset? If you believe that Irish I'm not entirely sure that you could entirely contemplate what it actually takes to piss me off  , I love a bit of banter & debate. Did my post come across a bit blunt? I can never tell TBH. Anyway whatever makes your life easier, I'm going to buy ARC cause I'm too broke to get a Trinnov. Keep talking out loud, it's an interesting debate before we go back and get whatever then do whatever anyway .. |
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Post by mcirish on Feb 29, 2024 19:37:19 GMT -6
Danny,
I'm so upset that I think to make me feel better... You should send me the Core 59s. That might smooth things over.... ;-)
All is good. I'm one of those who over thinks just about everything...
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 29, 2024 20:06:42 GMT -6
Danny, I'm so upset that I think to make me feel better... You should send me the Core 59s. That might smooth things over.... ;-) All is good. I'm one of those who over thinks just about everything... Nice try mate, nice try ..
Anyway, back on topic if anyone gets the ARC HW before me let us know. They've only just been released today my side, looking forward to testing it out when it arrives.
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Post by andersmv on Feb 29, 2024 21:21:09 GMT -6
Trinnov and Dirac can fix time domain issues but they both add latency. If you track live through your Daw, that latency would make it unusable. Dirac is 23ms and I believe Trinnov is higher. I'd have to turn off Dirac or Trinnov to track with VST instruments. I couldn't figure out how to play that ahead of the beat to compensate. I may still try Arc Studio. 1.4ms is workable. Sonarworks can be set for zero latency. I guess I'm pretty used to that. I'd have to change how I recorded if I change systems. That was something I had not thought about till yesterday. Everything is a compromise. Why would you have either on for tracking, just monitor on headphones? I don’t understand having room correction on for tracking: what’s the point ? Because I’m in the control room listening to mic placement, setting EQ and compression. If I’m just recording a bass guitar or electric part in the control room and monitoring with the speakers, I don’t “need” it to be able to play my part as an artist. It would be nice to have it when I’m in engineer mode though. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 29, 2024 22:09:44 GMT -6
I don't understand all the bickering. How's the Arc? Is it a better solution than SW? What's working for you in your room?
These seem like choices to me, not evangelical dart throwing.
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Post by andersmv on Feb 29, 2024 22:30:59 GMT -6
I don't understand all the bickering. How's the Arc? Is it a better solution than SW? What's working for you in your room? These seem like choices to me, not evangelical dart throwing. For sure. If you think the whole analog box thing is stupid and doesn’t make sense to you, then that’s fine. There’s nothing to “get”, and there’s no point for you buying it. If you’ve got a ridiculously stupid setup like I do (and a lot of other people), this is instantly appealing simply from a workflow standpoint. That’s all this is, it’s simplifying the process a bit. It makes way more sense to just stick with it as software if that’s working for you. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 29, 2024 23:18:56 GMT -6
I don't understand all the bickering. How's the Arc? Is it a better solution than SW? What's working for you in your room? These seem like choices to me, not evangelical dart throwing. For sure. If you think the whole analog box thing is stupid and doesn’t make sense to you, then that’s fine. There’s nothing to “get”, and there’s no point for you buying it. If you’ve got a ridiculously stupid setup like I do (and a lot of other people), this is instantly appealing simply from a workflow standpoint. That’s all this is, it’s simplifying the process a bit. It makes way more sense to just stick with it as software if that’s working for you. You're confusing me with someone else maybe? I just installed a Trinnov Nova in my setup. I agree with whatever works though, for sure. |
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.. It's just a conversation John, you do whatever works best for you. It's the results that count in the end, nothing else.
, I love a bit of banter & debate. Did my post come across a bit blunt? I can never tell TBH. Anyway whatever makes your life easier, I'm going to buy ARC cause I'm too broke to get a Trinnov. Keep talking out loud, it's an interesting debate before we go back and get whatever then do whatever anyway 