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Post by drbill on Oct 10, 2023 15:32:05 GMT -6
The reason I asked is this : when it comes to instruments, consoles, mics and even outboard gear - good enough generally ISN'T. We all (most of us) seek to gain the extra advantage of a piece of gear or instrument that we love, and it brings creative juices, tone and a sense of musicality that cannot be achieved without said piece. But when it comes to mixes - ITB is "good enough"? Because we need recall? Because of speed? Because it's cheaper? Because it's convenient? Because we can't hear the difference? (I don't believe that - because the above mixes were OBVIOIUSLY different) I don't get it..... Speed, convenience, recall, expense? They of course all factor in to making music in 2023, but I strive to make them non issues....to the best of my ability. Certain professional situations do require 100% compliance with recall - so I get the ITB argument for that - but even Hybrid based mixes CAN mitigate that within specific constraints. I essentially have a 100% recallable Hybrid mix solution that I can backwards work - right back to the writing components. Anyway - just musing while keeping my leg elevated. Only 2 more weeks before I can start learning to walk again....  |
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Post by seawell on Oct 10, 2023 15:53:19 GMT -6
The reason I asked is this : when it comes to instruments, consoles, mics and even outboard gear - good enough generally ISN'T. We all (most of us) seek to gain the extra advantage of a piece of gear or instrument that we love, and it brings creative juices, tone and a sense of musicality that cannot be achieved without said piece. But when it comes to mixes - ITB is "good enough"? Because we need recall? Because of speed? Because it's cheaper? Because it's convenient? Because we can't hear the difference? (I don't believe that - because the above mixes were OBVIOIUSLY different) I don't get it..... Speed, convenience, recall, expense? They of course all factor in to making music in 2023, but I strive to make them non issues....to the best of my ability. Certain professional situations do require 100% compliance with recall - so I get the ITB argument for that - but even Hybrid based mixes CAN mitigate that within specific constraints. I essentially have a 100% recallable Hybrid mix solution that I can backwards work - right back to the writing components. Anyway - just musing while keeping my leg elevated. Only 2 more weeks before I can start learning to walk again.... Because our industry has been in a race to the bottom for quite a while now. If the music business was still lucrative I don't think we'd be having this conversation 😬 |
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Post by wiz on Oct 10, 2023 16:03:25 GMT -6
The reason I asked is this : when it comes to instruments, consoles, mics and even outboard gear - good enough generally ISN'T. We all (most of us) seek to gain the extra advantage of a piece of gear or instrument that we love, and it brings creative juices, tone and a sense of musicality that cannot be achieved without said piece. But when it comes to mixes - ITB is "good enough"? Because we need recall? Because of speed? Because it's cheaper? Because it's convenient? Because we can't hear the difference? (I don't believe that - because the above mixes were OBVIOIUSLY different) I don't get it..... Speed, convenience, recall, expense? They of course all factor in to making music in 2023, but I strive to make them non issues....to the best of my ability. Certain professional situations do require 100% compliance with recall - so I get the ITB argument for that - but even Hybrid based mixes CAN mitigate that within specific constraints. I essentially have a 100% recallable Hybrid mix solution that I can backwards work - right back to the writing components. Anyway - just musing while keeping my leg elevated. Only 2 more weeks before I can start learning to walk again.... Hey bill hope the leg is getting better… If you found that plug ins could in fact do “exactly” what your hardware did…and your computer handled it just as efficiently as your current workflow….would you change? theatrical question obviously? Cheers Wiz |
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Post by copperx on Oct 10, 2023 17:19:56 GMT -6
theatrical question obviously? Cheers Wiz Act 1: wiz: If Hybrid and ITB were in a horror movie, who'd survive till the end? drbill: Hybrid, without a doubt. It's been through the trials and tribulations of the analog age; it can handle a haunted house. Act 2: wiz: What about ITB? drbill: Dies in the first act. Probably while trying to update its software in a creepy basement. Punchline: wiz: Ah, so Hybrid is the final girl, and ITB is the disposable sidekick. Classic. |
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Post by drbill on Oct 10, 2023 17:50:44 GMT -6
The reason I asked is this : when it comes to instruments, consoles, mics and even outboard gear - good enough generally ISN'T. We all (most of us) seek to gain the extra advantage of a piece of gear or instrument that we love, and it brings creative juices, tone and a sense of musicality that cannot be achieved without said piece. But when it comes to mixes - ITB is "good enough"? Because we need recall? Because of speed? Because it's cheaper? Because it's convenient? Because we can't hear the difference? (I don't believe that - because the above mixes were OBVIOIUSLY different) I don't get it..... Speed, convenience, recall, expense? They of course all factor in to making music in 2023, but I strive to make them non issues....to the best of my ability. Certain professional situations do require 100% compliance with recall - so I get the ITB argument for that - but even Hybrid based mixes CAN mitigate that within specific constraints. I essentially have a 100% recallable Hybrid mix solution that I can backwards work - right back to the writing components. Anyway - just musing while keeping my leg elevated. Only 2 more weeks before I can start learning to walk again.... Hey bill hope the leg is getting better… If you found that plug ins could in fact do “exactly” what your hardware did…and your computer handled it just as efficiently as your current workflow….would you change? theatrical question obviously? Cheers Wiz Thanks for the kind words Wiz. It's actually my foot/heel and to a lesser degree - my ankle. But who's counting. To the point - Is this a theatrical or theoretical question? (Gotta love spell correction. Where is GOOD AI??) If I was starting from scratch, my percentage of hardware to software ration would go way down I'd guess. Money IS a factor in a business that has almost completely collapsed for the common man/person. But if I had it all sitting in the control room like it is now? I'd stick 100% with the hardware even if identical sounding. There is an intangible creative bump that comes from being surrounded by blinking lights, knobs, switches, faders, etc. in a more traditional setup that a "virtual world clone" on your laptop cannot give you. That is tangible, valuable, and essential for me. I'd always have some critical hardware, but my HW spending habits would no doubt change up to a degree. Hope that answers your theatrical question. Cheers, |
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Post by drbill on Oct 10, 2023 17:51:23 GMT -6
The reason I asked is this : when it comes to instruments, consoles, mics and even outboard gear - good enough generally ISN'T. We all (most of us) seek to gain the extra advantage of a piece of gear or instrument that we love, and it brings creative juices, tone and a sense of musicality that cannot be achieved without said piece. But when it comes to mixes - ITB is "good enough"? Because we need recall? Because of speed? Because it's cheaper? Because it's convenient? Because we can't hear the difference? (I don't believe that - because the above mixes were OBVIOIUSLY different) I don't get it..... Speed, convenience, recall, expense? They of course all factor in to making music in 2023, but I strive to make them non issues....to the best of my ability. Certain professional situations do require 100% compliance with recall - so I get the ITB argument for that - but even Hybrid based mixes CAN mitigate that within specific constraints. I essentially have a 100% recallable Hybrid mix solution that I can backwards work - right back to the writing components. Anyway - just musing while keeping my leg elevated. Only 2 more weeks before I can start learning to walk again.... Because our industry has been in a race to the bottom for quite a while now. If the music business was still lucrative I don't think we'd be having this conversation 😬 I'm sure you are right on that Josh. |
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Post by drbill on Oct 10, 2023 17:52:18 GMT -6
theatrical question obviously? Cheers Wiz Act 1: wiz: If Hybrid and ITB were in a horror movie, who'd survive till the end? drbill: Hybrid, without a doubt. It's been through the trials and tribulations of the analog age; it can handle a haunted house. Act 2: wiz: What about ITB? drbill: Dies in the first act. Probably while trying to update its software in a creepy basement. Punchline: wiz: Ah, so Hybrid is the final girl, and ITB is the disposable sidekick. Classic. Hahaaaaa!!! Best post of the thread. Thanks for the laughs! |
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Post by seawell on Oct 10, 2023 18:01:26 GMT -6
theatrical question obviously? Cheers Wiz Act 1: wiz: If Hybrid and ITB were in a horror movie, who'd survive till the end? drbill: Hybrid, without a doubt. It's been through the trials and tribulations of the analog age; it can handle a haunted house. Act 2: wiz: What about ITB? drbill: Dies in the first act. Probably while trying to update its software in a creepy basement. Punchline: wiz: Ah, so Hybrid is the final girl, and ITB is the disposable sidekick. Classic. ITB is the girl who inevitably trips running through the woods 🤣 |
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Post by drbill on Oct 10, 2023 18:13:12 GMT -6
Act 1: wiz: If Hybrid and ITB were in a horror movie, who'd survive till the end? drbill: Hybrid, without a doubt. It's been through the trials and tribulations of the analog age; it can handle a haunted house. Act 2: wiz: What about ITB? drbill: Dies in the first act. Probably while trying to update its software in a creepy basement. Punchline: wiz: Ah, so Hybrid is the final girl, and ITB is the disposable sidekick. Classic. ITB is the girl who inevitably trips running through the woods 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 |
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Post by ericn on Oct 10, 2023 18:40:23 GMT -6
The reason I asked is this : when it comes to instruments, consoles, mics and even outboard gear - good enough generally ISN'T. We all (most of us) seek to gain the extra advantage of a piece of gear or instrument that we love, and it brings creative juices, tone and a sense of musicality that cannot be achieved without said piece. But when it comes to mixes - ITB is "good enough"? Because we need recall? Because of speed? Because it's cheaper? Because it's convenient? Because we can't hear the difference? (I don't believe that - because the above mixes were OBVIOIUSLY different) I don't get it..... Speed, convenience, recall, expense? They of course all factor in to making music in 2023, but I strive to make them non issues....to the best of my ability. Certain professional situations do require 100% compliance with recall - so I get the ITB argument for that - but even Hybrid based mixes CAN mitigate that within specific constraints. I essentially have a 100% recallable Hybrid mix solution that I can backwards work - right back to the writing components. Anyway - just musing while keeping my leg elevated. Only 2 more weeks before I can start learning to walk again.... Because our industry has been in a race to the bottom for quite a while now. If the music business was still lucrative I don't think we'd be having this conversation 😬 We went from being a professional tool market to consumer toys, it sucks but we have managed to get a handful of useful inexpensive tools. |
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Post by wiz on Oct 10, 2023 19:18:21 GMT -6
Hey bill hope the leg is getting better… If you found that plug ins could in fact do “exactly” what your hardware did…and your computer handled it just as efficiently as your current workflow….would you change? theatrical question obviously? Cheers Wiz Thanks for the kind words Wiz. It's actually my foot/heel and to a lesser degree - my ankle. But who's counting. To the point - Is this a theatrical or theoretical question? (Gotta love spell correction. Where is GOOD AI??) If I was starting from scratch, my percentage of hardware to software ration would go way down I'd guess. Money IS a factor in a business that has almost completely collapsed for the common man/person. But if I had it all sitting in the control room like it is now? I'd stick 100% with the hardware even if identical sounding. There is an intangible creative bump that comes from being surrounded by blinking lights, knobs, switches, faders, etc. in a more traditional setup that a "virtual world clone" on your laptop cannot give you. That is tangible, valuable, and essential for me. I'd always have some critical hardware, but my HW spending habits would no doubt change up to a degree. Hope that answers your theatrical question. Cheers, Thank for the reply.. yeah, what a auto correct... somehow just perfect....8) cheers Wiz |
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Post by seawell on Oct 10, 2023 19:37:44 GMT -6
Because our industry has been in a race to the bottom for quite a while now. If the music business was still lucrative I don't think we'd be having this conversation 😬 We went from being a professional tool market to consumer toys, it sucks but we have managed to get a handful of useful inexpensive tools. True. The problem with "good enough" is that when you do that enough times across a mix, it's death by a thousand paper cuts. Coming up short instance after instance has a significant cumulative effect on the end product. Just take a listen to the general crop of new music out there. It's not even a generational thing of not liking it stylistically, most all of it just sounds horrible. It's kind of crazy how low the standards have gotten. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2023 19:39:05 GMT -6
The reason I asked is this : when it comes to instruments, consoles, mics and even outboard gear - good enough generally ISN'T. We all (most of us) seek to gain the extra advantage of a piece of gear or instrument that we love, and it brings creative juices, tone and a sense of musicality that cannot be achieved without said piece. But when it comes to mixes - ITB is "good enough"? Because we need recall? Because of speed? Because it's cheaper? Because it's convenient? Because we can't hear the difference? (I don't believe that - because the above mixes were OBVIOIUSLY different) I don't get it..... Speed, convenience, recall, expense? They of course all factor in to making music in 2023, but I strive to make them non issues....to the best of my ability. Certain professional situations do require 100% compliance with recall - so I get the ITB argument for that - but even Hybrid based mixes CAN mitigate that within specific constraints. I essentially have a 100% recallable Hybrid mix solution that I can backwards work - right back to the writing components. Anyway - just musing while keeping my leg elevated. Only 2 more weeks before I can start learning to walk again.... Yes ITB is good enough unless you want a specific thing you can only do in hardware: diode bridge thump, really bad varimu thump, very hard knee compression, unique distortions, hysteresis, ringing, particular saturations, certain weird dynamics behavior (dbx 160 compressor type things, super fast modern optos, vintage vca emulation, and the list narrows for behavior that is not available itb). Until very recently, optical compressor over/under shoot and fully controllable sigmoid attacks weren't available itb. Now you can replicate the unique attack of many diode bridge and fet compressors digitally. I will say that "digital with multiple hands" is the most flexible solution with a GOOD control surface like a Eucon or the SSL stuff (not surgical enough but well built). |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2023 19:50:21 GMT -6
The reason I asked is this : when it comes to instruments, consoles, mics and even outboard gear - good enough generally ISN'T. We all (most of us) seek to gain the extra advantage of a piece of gear or instrument that we love, and it brings creative juices, tone and a sense of musicality that cannot be achieved without said piece. But when it comes to mixes - ITB is "good enough"? Because we need recall? Because of speed? Because it's cheaper? Because it's convenient? Because we can't hear the difference? (I don't believe that - because the above mixes were OBVIOIUSLY different) I don't get it..... Speed, convenience, recall, expense? They of course all factor in to making music in 2023, but I strive to make them non issues....to the best of my ability. Certain professional situations do require 100% compliance with recall - so I get the ITB argument for that - but even Hybrid based mixes CAN mitigate that within specific constraints. I essentially have a 100% recallable Hybrid mix solution that I can backwards work - right back to the writing components. Anyway - just musing while keeping my leg elevated. Only 2 more weeks before I can start learning to walk again.... Because our industry has been in a race to the bottom for quite a while now. If the music business was still lucrative I don't think we'd be having this conversation 😬 There's no money outside of lowest common denominator bullshit and nostalgia for dumbed down versions of older music. We've seen it happen to all forms of metal, punk, shoegaze, coldwave, etc at this point. Rehash the past, remove all creativity, make the music repetitive, remove anything interesting about the production, and make it sound fake. We don't even need the clone bands to do it. The original artists will do it themselves. See Metallica and the Stones. |
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Post by seawell on Oct 10, 2023 19:54:07 GMT -6
Because our industry has been in a race to the bottom for quite a while now. If the music business was still lucrative I don't think we'd be having this conversation 😬 There's no money outside of lowest common denominator bullshit and nostalgia for dumbed down versions of older music. We've seen it happen to all forms of metal, punk, shoegaze, coldwave, etc at this point. Rehash the past, remove all creativity, make the music repetitive, remove anything interesting about the production, and make it sound fake. We don't even need the clone bands to do it. The original artists will do it themselves. See Metallica and the Stones.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2023 19:59:56 GMT -6
We went from being a professional tool market to consumer toys, it sucks but we have managed to get a handful of useful inexpensive tools. True. The problem with "good enough" is that when you do that enough times across a mix, it's death by a thousand paper cuts. Coming up short instance after instance has a significant cumulative effect on the end product. Just take a listen to the general crop of new music out there. It's not even a generational thing of not liking it stylistically, most all of it just sounds horrible. It's kind of crazy how low the standards have gotten. superior drummer, quantization to the grid even of di guitars to then reamp, amp sims, autotune, avid lofi, rc-20, decapitator, waves ssl and cla, ssl prosumer hardware and plugs, multiband limiters that sound like FM but worse, soothe, valhalla vintage and other overused effect verbs, gulfoss, ai mastering with pre applied eq curves from cookie cutter music, shit circuitry and filters. worst of all there are apologetics for this garbage.
what happened to all the 80s to 2000 or so bands where only one guy would have a genre appropriate amp and the production would be weird but cool with one or two instruments somehow totally bungled and inaudible? now everything is universally mediocre to shit sounding
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Post by seawell on Oct 10, 2023 20:10:21 GMT -6
True. The problem with "good enough" is that when you do that enough times across a mix, it's death by a thousand paper cuts. Coming up short instance after instance has a significant cumulative effect on the end product. Just take a listen to the general crop of new music out there. It's not even a generational thing of not liking it stylistically, most all of it just sounds horrible. It's kind of crazy how low the standards have gotten. superior drummer, quantization to the grid even of di guitars to then reamp, amp sims, autotune, avid lofi, rc-20, decapitator, waves ssl and cla, ssl prosumer hardware and plugs, multiband limiters that sound like FM but worse, soothe, valhalla vintage and other overused effect verbs, gulfoss, ai mastering with pre applied eq curves from cookie cutter music, shit circuitry and filters. worst of all there are apologetics for this garbage.
what happened to all the 80s to 2000 or so bands where only one guy would have a genre appropriate amp and the production would be weird but cool with one or two instruments somehow totally bungled and inaudible? now everything is universally mediocre to shit sounding
That's a great point Dan, the corner cutting starts way before we even get to the mixing stage. |
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Post by ragan on Oct 10, 2023 22:18:09 GMT -6
I think the thing I dislike most about modern production is the lack of specificity. I like records that sound like a particular thing happening with a particular person or group of people in a particular place and time. My tastes can run all over the place (though there are definitely some well trodden paths of course), but universally, for me to connect with a record, it needs to sound like something specific happened. Something I can connect to and process and think about. Something that didn't happen anywhere else. I like how some dude makes an impulse buy of a weird guitar and kinda comes up on it as he learns, and then that weird guitar becomes part of his sound. Or someone can't afford a crapload of stuff and they just have a few kind of random pieces and that's what they work with. And (in the cases of real creativity and talent) they figure out how to do something cool with it.
Modern productions give me the same feeling I get when I'm on a roadtrip and I come up to a town and it's full of Applebee's and CVS and Best Buy. Oh, cool, another nondescript place that feels exactly like the last 100 nondescript places I've been. It just feels like nothing.
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 11, 2023 3:01:35 GMT -6
We are never going to escape that the excitement and creativity in music came from technological advances.
As a very rough history ....
Big bands gave way to Rock n Roll when the guitar amplifier was invented.
Rock n Roll gave way to Stadium Rock (Zepp, Floyd, Genesis) when the mega watt PA was invented.
Stadium Rock gave way to New Wave Synth pop and "Disco" when the synth keyboard was invented.
New Wave synth pop gave way to EDM, Urban and Dance music when the MIDI/Sequencer/DAW/VI's was invented.
and then erh .... hello .... anything new .... the industry is stuck rehashing the above decades .... over and over and over.
And as pointed artists are becoming their own tribute band!
What's the new stimulus for advancement and creativity?
Crack that and you'll be a very rich person :-)
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Post by Oneiro on Oct 11, 2023 20:07:04 GMT -6
Interesting thread.
Change is the nature of everything. I think if you're running a business and pragmatism is the number one concern, I'm not sure why you're in music. At this moment, it is one of the more irrational endeavors a person can undertake. So if you're on the path of having tons of outboard, mixing OTB, etc. no need to justify anything to anyone. It's your pirate ship on your lawless seas. Do what feels good. If clients want a lot of changes, ITB it is, I guess. Chances are very few understand and recognize how the process influences the results - in this case, you do things for yourself or save the "special process" for ones who appreciate it and understand the give and take. Hopefully you know the cost (in terms of many things, not just money) and what you can afford.
I think what gets conflated are the notions that "you can make something cool with anything" which is always true vs. "you'll be fine with whatever works" which is silly and blatantly untrue. I love specificity and sometimes specificity needs a great room, thousands of dollars worth of mics and instruments and great players. You can try to make your Dark Side of the Moon on a Focusrite Scarlett or whatnot - I think that's an interesting, probably worthwhile experiment - but, purely on a sonic level, you'll fall short of the goal and it won't be subtle.
I did an all tape session for the first time in a long long time and I was struck by how attentive everyone was. You're naturally listening and looking for punch points or listening for things about the arrangement that need to be addressed before the next take. The processing decisions were a little more labored over, a little more watching the meters and listening back. All in all - a much more caring, delicate process than what I had gotten used to over the past decade, which almost seems quite brute force and mechanical in comparison, despite the efficiency. The psychology of these things is always last to be appreciated and first to be dismissed. "No you're just hearing non-linearities! No, you're just being romantic and overlooking all these inconveniences!" As if I (or anyone else) am so irrational that we'd overlook major bottlenecks in favor of questionable gain. Nah, buddy - you're the one overlooking things. There is this online pattern of debating minutiae endlessly but throwing out all these major processes which influence the macro picture and then wondering why the product isn't the same as it used to be.
As far as the pursuit of excellence goes, everyone has their risk tolerance, their budget, their tastes. I'm fucking crazy, as I suspect some of you are as well - I know it was irrational to pursue this, I did it anyway and I love it. I have so much useless information in my head about the most random audio/music-related things but it's fine. I don't care if musicians are relegated to the minstrel's corner again - this is one of the most magical mysterious things humans have ever decided to do and I'd like to do it as well as I can to my own standards.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 11, 2023 21:29:12 GMT -6
The reason I asked is this : when it comes to instruments, consoles, mics and even outboard gear - good enough generally ISN'T. We all (most of us) seek to gain the extra advantage of a piece of gear or instrument that we love, and it brings creative juices, tone and a sense of musicality that cannot be achieved without said piece. But when it comes to mixes - ITB is "good enough"? Because we need recall? Because of speed? Because it's cheaper? Because it's convenient? Because we can't hear the difference? (I don't believe that - because the above mixes were OBVIOIUSLY different) I don't get it..... Speed, convenience, recall, expense? They of course all factor in to making music in 2023, but I strive to make them non issues....to the best of my ability. Certain professional situations do require 100% compliance with recall - so I get the ITB argument for that - but even Hybrid based mixes CAN mitigate that within specific constraints. I essentially have a 100% recallable Hybrid mix solution that I can backwards work - right back to the writing components. Anyway - just musing while keeping my leg elevated. Only 2 more weeks before I can start learning to walk again.... Hey bill hope the leg is getting better… If you found that plug ins could in fact do “exactly” what your hardware did…and your computer handled it just as efficiently as your current workflow….would you change? theatrical question obviously? Cheers Wiz  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 11, 2023 21:36:53 GMT -6
Interesting thread. Change is the nature of everything. I think if you're running a business and pragmatism is the number one concern, I'm not sure why you're in music. At this moment, it is one of the more irrational endeavors a person can undertake. So if you're on the path of having tons of outboard, mixing OTB, etc. no need to justify anything to anyone. It's your pirate ship on your lawless seas. Do what feels good. If clients want a lot of changes, ITB it is, I guess. Chances are very few understand and recognize how the process influences the results - in this case, you do things for yourself or save the "special process" for ones who appreciate it and understand the give and take. Hopefully you know the cost (in terms of many things, not just money) and what you can afford. I think what gets conflated are the notions that "you can make something cool with anything" which is always true vs. "you'll be fine with whatever works" which is silly and blatantly untrue. I love specificity and sometimes specificity needs a great room, thousands of dollars worth of mics and instruments and great players. You can try to make your Dark Side of the Moon on a Focusrite Scarlett or whatnot - I think that's an interesting, probably worthwhile experiment - but, purely on a sonic level, you'll fall short of the goal and it won't be subtle. I did an all tape session for the first time in a long long time and I was struck by how attentive everyone was. You're naturally listening and looking for punch points or listening for things about the arrangement that need to be addressed before the next take. The processing decisions were a little more labored over, a little more watching the meters and listening back. All in all - a much more caring, delicate process than what I had gotten used to over the past decade, which almost seems quite brute force and mechanical in comparison, despite the efficiency. The psychology of these things is always last to be appreciated and first to be dismissed. "No you're just hearing non-linearities! No, you're just being romantic and overlooking all these inconveniences!" As if I (or anyone else) am so irrational that we'd overlook major bottlenecks in favor of questionable gain. Nah, buddy - you're the one overlooking things. There is this online pattern of debating minutiae endlessly but throwing out all these major processes which influence the macro picture and then wondering why the product isn't the same as it used to be. As far as the pursuit of excellence goes, everyone has their risk tolerance, their budget, their tastes. I'm fucking crazy, as I suspect some of you are as well - I know it was irrational to pursue this, I did it anyway and I love it. I have so much useless information in my head about the most random audio/music-related things but it's fine. I don't care if musicians are relegated to the minstrel's corner again - this is one of the most magical mysterious things humans have ever decided to do and I'd like to do it as well as I can to my own standards. #postmore |
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Post by ragan on Oct 11, 2023 23:58:19 GMT -6
What John said 👍
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 12, 2023 1:50:02 GMT -6
The reason I asked is this : when it comes to instruments, consoles, mics and even outboard gear - good enough generally ISN'T. We all (most of us) seek to gain the extra advantage of a piece of gear or instrument that we love, and it brings creative juices, tone and a sense of musicality that cannot be achieved without said piece. But when it comes to mixes - ITB is "good enough"? Because we need recall? Because of speed? Because it's cheaper? Because it's convenient? Because we can't hear the difference? (I don't believe that - because the above mixes were OBVIOIUSLY different) I don't get it..... Speed, convenience, recall, expense? They of course all factor in to making music in 2023, but I strive to make them non issues....to the best of my ability. Certain professional situations do require 100% compliance with recall - so I get the ITB argument for that - but even Hybrid based mixes CAN mitigate that within specific constraints. I essentially have a 100% recallable Hybrid mix solution that I can backwards work - right back to the writing components. Anyway - just musing while keeping my leg elevated. Only 2 more weeks before I can start learning to walk again.... Yes ITB is good enough unless you want a specific thing you can only do in hardware: diode bridge thump, really bad varimu thump, very hard knee compression, unique distortions, hysteresis, ringing, particular saturations, certain weird dynamics behavior (dbx 160 compressor type things, super fast modern optos, vintage vca emulation, and the list narrows for behavior that is not available itb). Until very recently, optical compressor over/under shoot and fully controllable sigmoid attacks weren't available itb. Now you can replicate the unique attack of many diode bridge and fet compressors digitally. I will say that "digital with multiple hands" is the most flexible solution with a GOOD control surface like a Eucon or the SSL stuff (not surgical enough but well built). Dan, in your pursuit of digital perfection and control you know you can extend this to using Just Intonation keyboards and guitars. Like analog hardware, piano’s, std synths and keyboard and guitars are a horrible compromise! That pesky cycle of fifths doesn’t quite pan out as you proceed around the cycle, those interval ratios drift and we end up with an equal tempered compromise. I’m personally a fan of all this imperfection, both analog hardware and slightly out of tune instruments! I have a friend who really digs Just Intonation instruments and makes his music with them, you know I have never asked him if he’s ITB or Hybrid …. it would be an interesting question |
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Post by svart on Oct 12, 2023 9:22:43 GMT -6
Interesting thread. Change is the nature of everything. I think if you're running a business and pragmatism is the number one concern, I'm not sure why you're in music. At this moment, it is one of the more irrational endeavors a person can undertake. So if you're on the path of having tons of outboard, mixing OTB, etc. no need to justify anything to anyone. It's your pirate ship on your lawless seas. Do what feels good. If clients want a lot of changes, ITB it is, I guess. Chances are very few understand and recognize how the process influences the results - in this case, you do things for yourself or save the "special process" for ones who appreciate it and understand the give and take. Hopefully you know the cost (in terms of many things, not just money) and what you can afford. I think what gets conflated are the notions that "you can make something cool with anything" which is always true vs. "you'll be fine with whatever works" which is silly and blatantly untrue. I love specificity and sometimes specificity needs a great room, thousands of dollars worth of mics and instruments and great players. You can try to make your Dark Side of the Moon on a Focusrite Scarlett or whatnot - I think that's an interesting, probably worthwhile experiment - but, purely on a sonic level, you'll fall short of the goal and it won't be subtle. I did an all tape session for the first time in a long long time and I was struck by how attentive everyone was. You're naturally listening and looking for punch points or listening for things about the arrangement that need to be addressed before the next take. The processing decisions were a little more labored over, a little more watching the meters and listening back. All in all - a much more caring, delicate process than what I had gotten used to over the past decade, which almost seems quite brute force and mechanical in comparison, despite the efficiency. The psychology of these things is always last to be appreciated and first to be dismissed. "No you're just hearing non-linearities! No, you're just being romantic and overlooking all these inconveniences!" As if I (or anyone else) am so irrational that we'd overlook major bottlenecks in favor of questionable gain. Nah, buddy - you're the one overlooking things. There is this online pattern of debating minutiae endlessly but throwing out all these major processes which influence the macro picture and then wondering why the product isn't the same as it used to be. As far as the pursuit of excellence goes, everyone has their risk tolerance, their budget, their tastes. I'm fucking crazy, as I suspect some of you are as well - I know it was irrational to pursue this, I did it anyway and I love it. I have so much useless information in my head about the most random audio/music-related things but it's fine. I don't care if musicians are relegated to the minstrel's corner again - this is one of the most magical mysterious things humans have ever decided to do and I'd like to do it as well as I can to my own standards. I just recently dumped a 2" tape from 1984 to digital for an artist. What really struck me as different was the way the tracks were "perfect" to tape. Songs done in one take, no edits and no punches. It sounded like a record right off the tape. It's a rare thing to hear these days, when a band of 6 or more musicians can just run through an 8 minute song and it be in-time and have a groove as well. It's also funny because the artist who had me do this also wanted me to do a remix of one of the songs in digital and he likes MY version so much better than the original and all I did was edit it for noise (tape hiss/breaths/background noise, etc) and then do a rudimentary EQ/compression mix of the song. He said that what I did in a few hours took them days to do in the studio for the original tune. We discussed the session from 1984 and compared to him sitting in on my editing/mix sessions today and he LOVES modern recording so much more. So many more options, faster workflows, everything inherently orderly and best of all, no destructive editing so he can try ideas without consequence. This guy's been on a ton of records since the 70's and it's an interesting take to hear that he much prefers today's studios because lots of folks proclaim that older folks prefer the *old way* of recording with hard decisions and destructive edits which is often taken as gospel, but seems to not be a universal truth. |
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