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Post by paulcheeba on Oct 3, 2023 5:08:36 GMT -6
A common subject and a unsubtle plug for work ;-) "A" was better from the get go. Hybrid for me every time. There's no doubt that the cliche that plug ins are improving is true especially at higher band widths. Well presented with a manageable and affordable amount of gear to do multiple mixes easily enough. I have a Wes/Bettermaker/Nicerizer rig for total recall. I prefer my 500 console though which is automated with Wes ng gear I leave it set and forget most of the time with outboard.
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Post by smashlord on Oct 4, 2023 18:35:13 GMT -6
Optimized workflow can lead to better sonics. I always feel having more time to spend on a mix typically benefits it more than any sonics provided by outboard. Same goes for being able to take a break and pull up something else when you hit a creative roadblock or start to lose enthusiasm for one particular song. ?? Don't understand. Instantiating my hybrid workflow is faster than instantiating plugins. For me, aside from being able to get sounds much faster and better with analog gear, the actual workflow is faster. Then again, I have my studio very dialed, and my PT i/o template is simple and easy. If your studio is primarily used for mixing and can keep general settings on the gear that you can mix into, I get that. If you regularly flip back and forth between tracking and mixing where the gear is being utilized differently, it becomes more complicated. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2023 19:11:22 GMT -6
It took a lot of learning and opening of a closed mind but now I know that when used properly, it's as good as any other workflow. Well, we all have an opinion. Sorry mine doesn't correlate. |
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Post by svart on Oct 5, 2023 7:29:54 GMT -6
It took a lot of learning and opening of a closed mind but now I know that when used properly, it's as good as any other workflow. Well, we all have an opinion. Sorry mine doesn't correlate. It's all good. We each have our ways of working. I'm simply pointing out that it's not as black and white as I used to think it was. Still lots of people out there will die on the hill of "this is the only way" and I used to be one of them.. Until I wasn't. I still think that people don't give things (anything really) a solid chance when they have strong opinions. I see it a lot in "artistic" circles where emotion is equally important as skill for obtaining the desired end result. It's just how people are. They'll swear up and down that they've done the homework but most of the time they haven't. The do a little, hit a mild pebble in the road and then throw up their hands and give up and then be even more convinced their way was the right way. But as far as hybrid vs. ITB.. Honestly I probably couldn't care much less anymore. Shaking off those chains has freed me. I used to AGONIZE about choices.. Which preamp was best for tambourine? Which version of 1176 should the vocals get and which should be on the bass? Should I move the mic a quarter of an inch to the right? Are these XLR cables free-range copper crafted by Himalayan artisans for best IMD at 5GHz? Is this version of 1176 plug correctly modelling the input transformer if it's only oversampling by 256x? Which brand of NE5532 opamps are in this converter and how can I strip out all of that and replace it with hundreds of dollars worth of parts that will make it nearly unstable, run extremely hot and give me an extra 1% of frequency response? It's all bulljive to me now. Just plugging something up and dropping a few plugs into my template and moving along is so much less stressful. I can worry about other things now, like what is for lunch or even making sure the singer is getting enough water during takes instead of wondering if the LA2A clone is adding too much harmonics compared to an original. The workflow improvements going mostly ITB have been worth more than anything. The minor differences in tone have not been a stumbling block in the least. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2023 10:14:21 GMT -6
Well, we all have an opinion. Sorry mine doesn't correlate. It's all good. We each have our ways of working. I'm simply pointing out that it's not as black and white as I used to think it was. Still lots of people out there will die on the hill of "this is the only way" and I used to be one of them.. Until I wasn't. I still think that people don't give things (anything really) a solid chance when they have strong opinions. I see it a lot in "artistic" circles where emotion is equally important as skill for obtaining the desired end result. It's just how people are. They'll swear up and down that they've done the homework but most of the time they haven't. The do a little, hit a mild pebble in the road and then throw up their hands and give up and then be even more convinced their way was the right way. But as far as hybrid vs. ITB.. Honestly I probably couldn't care much less anymore. Shaking off those chains has freed me. I used to AGONIZE about choices.. Which preamp was best for tambourine? Which version of 1176 should the vocals get and which should be on the bass? Should I move the mic a quarter of an inch to the right? Are these XLR cables free-range copper crafted by Himalayan artisans for best IMD at 5GHz? Is this version of 1176 plug correctly modelling the input transformer if it's only oversampling by 256x? Which brand of NE5532 opamps are in this converter and how can I strip out all of that and replace it with hundreds of dollars worth of parts that will make it nearly unstable, run extremely hot and give me an extra 1% of frequency response? It's all bulljive to me now. Just plugging something up and dropping a few plugs into my template and moving along is so much less stressful. I can worry about other things now, like what is for lunch or even making sure the singer is getting enough water during takes instead of wondering if the LA2A clone is adding too much harmonics compared to an original. The workflow improvements going mostly ITB have been worth more than anything. The minor differences in tone have not been a stumbling block in the least. The moment you stop using ersatz is when your sound gets better. |
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Post by drbill on Oct 5, 2023 10:34:19 GMT -6
You've got to make decisions either way. IMO, the analog decisions are much better and much faster. Committing is seemingly a lost art these days. Slap more plugins on it becomes the mantra. And from my perspective, the more in a session, the more 2 dimensional it sounds.
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Post by niklas1073 on Oct 5, 2023 10:50:29 GMT -6
You've got to make decisions either way. IMO, the analog decisions are much better and much faster. Committing is seemingly a lost art these days. Slap more plugins on it becomes the mantra. And from my perspective, the more in a session, the more 2 dimensional it sounds. I would rather say that the art of producing and tracking has been a dying breed. This leads to decisions left undone and doors left open until mastering. When the producing and tracking is done well and right the mixing does not have to be that excessive and complicated. The committing to the sound happens in my opinion at the stage of tracking where the big money is spent. Then mixing itb vs hw does not really make a difference. I would argue it is impossible to tell wether its hw or itb mixed regarding the experienced depth in the sound field. |
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Post by christopher on Oct 5, 2023 11:45:18 GMT -6
My goal is to use no plugins: Just polarity, fader and pan. Nothing is faster or easier. If I don’t like something, loop it through an analog chain and I’m happy with that track after 1 playback of the song. Within 5 seconds into an EQ it sounds better, maybe 30 more seconds to dial in some compression, help or not?. Takes 5 minutes.
When I REALLY wish it could be re-recorded, that what will suck the life out of me. I mean hours and days and weeks, never happy.. that’s when one day out of desperation I whipped out the tube mic, choose the preamp and get it on the woofer and re-record it myself, using mic technique -same as a drum or amp. It worked! I got my life back. So now I do that first thing.(Chinese mic and Tambo, I’m looking at you!)
Of course I still use plugins all the time because they are just a mouse click and super fun to play with. But I’ve reduced the amount I use to very few, and I work to bypass them as much as possible. And try to have something outboard I can use instead.
I’m just the type who will put the headphones on and lose 3-8 hours without realizing it. Staying on faders only has given my life back
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Post by drbill on Oct 5, 2023 12:22:44 GMT -6
You've got to make decisions either way. IMO, the analog decisions are much better and much faster. Committing is seemingly a lost art these days. Slap more plugins on it becomes the mantra. And from my perspective, the more in a session, the more 2 dimensional it sounds. This leads to decisions left undone and doors left open until mastering. When the producing and tracking is done well and right the mixing does not have to be that excessive and complicated. The committing to the sound happens in my opinion at the stage of tracking where the big money is spent. Then mixing itb vs hw does not really make a difference. I would argue it is impossible to tell wether its hw or itb mixed regarding the experienced depth in the sound field. Yes, agreed on the art of production / tracking. That was essentially my point. However, I cannot state how much I disagree with "then mixing itb vs hw does not really make a difference". What many people miss is how many trips thru hardware - op amps, transformers, tape, outboard, etc. - audio signals actually went thru in old school production. You know, those classic albums that many continually covet and seek the sound of. One trip thru great hardware during tracking does not get you there. I've actually put my money where my mouth is, and spent multiple hundreds of thousands over decades to get the workflow and sonics to where I want it. (I've built / had many studios, many consoles, many tape machines, countless outboard and mics, tens of thousands on wiring, etc. - ending up with a pretty insane Hybrid setup now.). It makes an immeasurable difference for me - or I would have a vacation home win HI with the money saved. YMMV of course. Come to think about it.....at this stage of life, and looking at the industry, maybe I should have gone for the HI vacation home, but the other 10 months of the year working itb would make the fun of making music so much less, so..... Again, this is for me. But with my luck, I would have bought in Lahina..... :-( Life is short - there are no guarantees on how many more days we have in the studio - live it to the fullest!!! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2023 13:59:32 GMT -6
You've got to make decisions either way. IMO, the analog decisions are much better and much faster. Committing is seemingly a lost art these days. Slap more plugins on it becomes the mantra. And from my perspective, the more in a session, the more 2 dimensional it sounds. what plugins are you using? How are they set? Are you using emulations that misfire all the time? Distorted circuit models? Multiband plugins that will scramble an instrument and if poorly set will sound like a bad fm station? Are you just using HDX plugins, the majority of which are over 20 year old algorithms designed for ancient Motorola 56k dsp processors and Pentium and PowerPC CPUs? Many of those have horrible timbre or the dynamic processors apply an obvious envelope to the audio but so do many popular pieces of analog equipment like a distressor, an 1176 used beyond a basic peak limiter, or an la2a if you’re not automating it to keep the signal in the sweet spot of the unit’s gain reduction meter. Inserting most modern plugin in modern daws leads to 32-but convergent rounding at worst if using aax or au plugins. A plugin that oversamples the audio path will have an anti alias filter too. A hardware insert will truncate your floating point audio to 24-bit fixed necessitating dither (different dithers sound different), passing through multiple fir filters (if you have well designed converters), different amplifier circuits, converter ic processing, and back into the daw. These are far greater than the first all other things being equal especially that since all AD converters change the sound that comes out of your DA a little bit, your analog insert must change the sound more than the AD to not be perceptibly detrimental. |
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Post by niklas1073 on Oct 5, 2023 14:19:57 GMT -6
I would rather say that the art of producing and tracking has been a dying breed. This leads to decisions left undone and doors left open until mastering. When the producing and tracking is done well and right the mixing does not have to be that excessive and complicated. The committing to the sound happens in my opinion at the stage of tracking where the big money is spent. Then mixing itb vs hw does not really make a difference. I would argue it is impossible to tell wether its hw or itb mixed regarding the experienced depth in the sound field. Yes, agreed on the art of production / tracking. That was essentially my point. However, I cannot state how much I disagree with "then mixing itb vs hw does not really make a difference". What many people miss is how many trips thru hardware - op amps, transformers, tape, outboard, etc. - audio signals actually went thru in old school production. You know, those classic albums that many continually covet and seek the sound of. One trip thru great hardware during tracking does not get you there. I've actually put my money where my mouth is, and spent multiple hundreds of thousands over decades to get the workflow and sonics to where I want it. (I've built / had many studios, many consoles, many tape machines, countless outboard and mics, tens of thousands on wiring, etc. - ending up with a pretty insane Hybrid setup now.). It makes an immeasurable difference for me - or I would have a vacation home win HI with the money saved. YMMV of course. Come to think about it.....at this stage of life, and looking at the industry, maybe I should have gone for the HI vacation home, but the other 10 months of the year working itb would make the fun of making music so much less, so..... Again, this is for me. But with my luck, I would have bought in Lahina..... :-( Life is short - there are no guarantees on how many more days we have in the studio - live it to the fullest!!! I have no doubt your setup sounds stellar. And ofcourse a great deal of the outcome relies on how the workflow sits in the hands of the engineer. And I am sure you as most others here, has far more experience than me with my limited track record and diversity regarding setups. I started to build my studio when digital was already state of the art. And since I don’t see itb and hw a VS. debate but rather coexisting approaches at this point, I started thinking what would I do with a few hundred grands to my studio… which is in the low tenths maybe at this point after all. I would probably still mix itb and not touch anything post A/D. But I would build an amazing sounding large studio. Fill it up with great hw setup, instruments, and a hell of a mic locker. And spend the rest on hiring a killer producer and a few killer players and lay down an album. 🤣🤣 But yeah, at the end of the day, whatever makes you comfortable and makes you put out the best outcome of your mix will likely have a greater impact on the final product than the tech itself, as we are still dealing with either a state of the art hybrid or state or the art itb setup in this conversation. |
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Post by drbill on Oct 5, 2023 14:28:52 GMT -6
Hey Dan!
I don't really know what to say other than I use VERY few older plugins, I purchase/update the "latest/greatest" plugins fairly often, my conversion is AVID HD i/o, and I use my ears and gut to decide what to use in my mix sessions. I am not ANTI plugin - there are 374 in my plugin folder - most of which never get instantiated. I am however PRO hardware as I find hardware with electrons flowing much more musical, three dimensional, and compelling for the music I'm doing, and the sonics I desire. I use plugins sparingly, but often enough. I can mix either way, as I have it all at my disposal. I choose Hybrid - it's an art decision - not a scientific one or a financial one. Cheers,
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 5, 2023 16:40:27 GMT -6
What I love the most about hardware is it’s authentic, it’s the original real deal.
It’s not a tribute act.
There’s no narrative needed when using it, you know how it goes using plug-ins.
“They’re 90% there … who cares about the last 10%”
“Nobody can tell the difference anyway, only the engineer”
“ I’m focusing on the music”
Blah blah blah ….
When I’m using hardware, I’m never comparing it to plug-ins.
I use plug-ins (I have to) but they never ever sound as rich, detailed, musical or straight up magical as my hardware.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2023 18:23:33 GMT -6
Hey Dan! I don't really know what to say other than I use VERY few older plugins, I purchase/update the "latest/greatest" plugins fairly often, my conversion is AVID HD i/o, and I use my ears and gut to decide what to use in my mix sessions. I am not ANTI plugin - there are 374 in my plugin folder - most of which never get instantiated. I am however PRO hardware as I find hardware with electrons flowing much more musical, three dimensional, and compelling for the music I'm doing, and the sonics I desire. I use plugins sparingly, but often enough. I can mix either way, as I have it all at my disposal. I choose Hybrid - it's an art decision - not a scientific one or a financial one. Cheers, I decided to go fully itb on a whim when I realized that my MOTU AVB inputs sounded analog in a bad way; they warmed over everything and killed detail. I get occasional gear lust but I can just grin and bear it. Molot GE having just come out bolstered my decision because it let me control attack and release envelopes without digital artifacts.
Now I have come the other way and found that I think dynamics processing that imposes an obvious envelope on percussive instruments including pianos and guitars sounds incredibly stupid when not bolstering a wimpy performance or recording. Anything resembling Distressor envelopes makes me wince. Thus I am enamored right now with the Sound Radix Drum Leveler and Powair, MDWDRC2, the Tokyo Dawn plugins set to not sound hydraulic, and tweaking good old MJUC into Dirt McGirt. I am playing around with the demos of the DDMF Magic Death Eye Plugs too. Most of the new compressors, both in software and hardware, seem to be toys though for musicians, mixers, and producers to ruin their sound. Occasionally they can be useful to punch up a wimpy performance but a lot of the more flexible ones aren't selling. 1176 clones that apply an obvious envelope to the sound when used as anything but a peak limiter or slowest attack, fast to medium release, 1 vu off on a SM57 snare sell more than say the Daking compressors or new super smooth designs.
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Post by drbill on Oct 5, 2023 18:32:38 GMT -6
Most of the new compressors, both in software and hardware, seem to be toys though for musicians, mixers, and producers to ruin their sound.
Thanks for the thoughts Dan. As to the above - ^^^^ - interesting. With plugins (at least the ones I have), I'd tend to agree. But with the hardware I have I find quite the opposite to be true. It's hard to "ruin" a sound with them. In fact, for what I'm looking for at least, it's just so easy to make things sound good that I often end up laughing at myself. Maybe I'm just at a point where I relax and embrace the envelope they impose. I can however relate to that concept with pianos. I've never had a piano compressor that I liked - either hardware or software - until I got a Manley Vari-Mu. After that it was all soooo easy. Like butter.... |
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Post by smashlord on Oct 5, 2023 19:32:34 GMT -6
You've got to make decisions either way. IMO, the analog decisions are much better and much faster. Committing is seemingly a lost art these days. Slap more plugins on it becomes the mantra. And from my perspective, the more in a session, the more 2 dimensional it sounds. I would rather say that the art of producing and tracking has been a dying breed. This leads to decisions left undone and doors left open until mastering. When the producing and tracking is done well and right the mixing does not have to be that excessive and complicated. The committing to the sound happens in my opinion at the stage of tracking where the big money is spent. Then mixing itb vs hw does not really make a difference. I would argue it is impossible to tell wether its hw or itb mixed regarding the experienced depth in the sound field. This. I find artists have more issues committing than the engineer does most of the time. You can be nearing the finish line and the artist will all of a sudden do a complete 180 on direction sometimes. I do find though that this happens more on mix projects where there was no producer overseeing the entire project. I have had to explain to artists a few times that "the sound" is not created in mixing... its created in the production stage. We have some pretty amazing tools but still no time machine to go back and recut those roomy drums with towels in an iso, recut that J bass with rounds with a P bass with flats, or change guitar voicings that step all over the busy bass line. |
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 5, 2023 23:04:53 GMT -6
Well, we all have an opinion. Sorry mine doesn't correlate. It's all good. We each have our ways of working. I'm simply pointing out that it's not as black and white as I used to think it was. Still lots of people out there will die on the hill of "this is the only way" and I used to be one of them.. Until I wasn't. I still think that people don't give things (anything really) a solid chance when they have strong opinions. I see it a lot in "artistic" circles where emotion is equally important as skill for obtaining the desired end result. It's just how people are. They'll swear up and down that they've done the homework but most of the time they haven't. The do a little, hit a mild pebble in the road and then throw up their hands and give up and then be even more convinced their way was the right way. But as far as hybrid vs. ITB.. Honestly I probably couldn't care much less anymore. Shaking off those chains has freed me. I used to AGONIZE about choices.. Which preamp was best for tambourine? Which version of 1176 should the vocals get and which should be on the bass? Should I move the mic a quarter of an inch to the right? Are these XLR cables free-range copper crafted by Himalayan artisans for best IMD at 5GHz? Is this version of 1176 plug correctly modelling the input transformer if it's only oversampling by 256x? Which brand of NE5532 opamps are in this converter and how can I strip out all of that and replace it with hundreds of dollars worth of parts that will make it nearly unstable, run extremely hot and give me an extra 1% of frequency response? It's all bulljive to me now. Just plugging something up and dropping a few plugs into my template and moving along is so much less stressful. I can worry about other things now, like what is for lunch or even making sure the singer is getting enough water during takes instead of wondering if the LA2A clone is adding too much harmonics compared to an original. The workflow improvements going mostly ITB have been worth more than anything. The minor differences in tone have not been a stumbling block in the least. With great respect, I honestly don’t understand this attitude and thinking. Could you imagine the same thing applied to songwriting. I don’t care anymore I’ve shaken off the chains and I don’t agonise anymore about which key I write in I just use C major no black keys to worry about. I don’t agonise over the chords and melody - I just go for the standard patterns and nice easy lyrics about easy vanilla subjects …. Ok I’m being silly - but the point for me is everything matters when I’m creating art. I pour my heart and soul into every aspect from agonising over the tiniest chord voicing and melodic choice to picking out the perfect pre and mic for the acoustic guitar part - definitely using Vovox solid core mic cable! Maybe it’s a pointless approach, but I have no choice it’s built into my DNA to always take the road less travelled. |
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Post by christophert on Oct 6, 2023 3:12:29 GMT -6
I'm running out of popcorn  Looking forward to patching in my hardware on the next mix - I might patch in a few more items after reading some of these posts. |
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 6, 2023 4:25:14 GMT -6
I'm running out of popcorn Looking forward to patching in my hardware on the next mix - I might patch in a few more items after reading some of these posts. What converters do you use for channel I/O to hardware? My main converters are a Crane song HEDD 192, so that takes care of tracking and mixing through hardware. To come out to hardware for channels I’d need a dedicated system and I’m looking at about 5-6K for an 8 channel Burl mothership 16 AES loaded with an 8 channel AD and 8 channel DA. Not cheap to do properly and preserve the signal I tracked with the HEDD 192. I looked a cheaper ADA’s from Ferrofish but I’ve concluded I’d probably be better staying in the box until I can get something really pro from Burl? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2023 7:01:20 GMT -6
Well, we all have an opinion. Sorry mine doesn't correlate. It's all good. We each have our ways of working. I'm simply pointing out that it's not as black and white as I used to think it was. Still lots of people out there will die on the hill of "this is the only way" and I used to be one of them.. Until I wasn't. I still think that people don't give things (anything really) a solid chance when they have strong opinions. I see it a lot in "artistic" circles where emotion is equally important as skill for obtaining the desired end result. It's just how people are. They'll swear up and down that they've done the homework but most of the time they haven't. The do a little, hit a mild pebble in the road and then throw up their hands and give up and then be even more convinced their way was the right way. The workflow improvements going mostly ITB have been worth more than anything. The minor differences in tone have not been a stumbling block in the least. For me it's an ever evolving landscape that shifts tonally, I've been in the I don't care camp all the way back to HW is a must. The reality is things change, I look back at some of my old productions and they're not what I'd look for today. The way I approach things is different, how I want something to sound is different and the end result is different.
Simply put I don't really have a definitive answer and even if I did it could be invalidated three months down the line, I certainly have observations though. For example most VCA's have a certain sound to me until I met one recently which falls more in line with a typical vocal opto sound. More so than the two other Opto's I have, hmm... For me it has made a massive difference because it's a two way street, it reacts differently to my voice causing me to sing differently then we have both a performance and HW impact. If multiple factors change there's going to be a very notable difference.
Here's the other thing, I look at this from a holistic standpoint. I don't really get much information from testing dry mic's with no processing. Even a mildly used comp in the chain might not have a major impact. When it's been through a chain of comps, a desk, a de-esser, EQ etc. then the differences start to stack quickly and that includes the methodology I chose on that day. Sure, in the grand scheme it is the song and arrangement that matters the most. On occasion something that's not all that well recorded (sometimes on purpose) has punched through to the top but that doesn't mean the equipment or approach can't heavily impact the end result. Whether that really matters to the listener or not? Well there's too many opposing anecdotes or observations to ever really find something solid.
Generally though the people putting that much effort in do so at every stage and there is a certain consistency to a lot of mass consumed music. So, ultimately I just try to find things that make life easy for me to achieve the sonic quality or effect I desire, sometimes that's hardware and other times it's software. Whatever it takes..
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Post by svart on Oct 6, 2023 9:02:45 GMT -6
It's all good. We each have our ways of working. I'm simply pointing out that it's not as black and white as I used to think it was. Still lots of people out there will die on the hill of "this is the only way" and I used to be one of them.. Until I wasn't. I still think that people don't give things (anything really) a solid chance when they have strong opinions. I see it a lot in "artistic" circles where emotion is equally important as skill for obtaining the desired end result. It's just how people are. They'll swear up and down that they've done the homework but most of the time they haven't. The do a little, hit a mild pebble in the road and then throw up their hands and give up and then be even more convinced their way was the right way. But as far as hybrid vs. ITB.. Honestly I probably couldn't care much less anymore. Shaking off those chains has freed me. I used to AGONIZE about choices.. Which preamp was best for tambourine? Which version of 1176 should the vocals get and which should be on the bass? Should I move the mic a quarter of an inch to the right? Are these XLR cables free-range copper crafted by Himalayan artisans for best IMD at 5GHz? Is this version of 1176 plug correctly modelling the input transformer if it's only oversampling by 256x? Which brand of NE5532 opamps are in this converter and how can I strip out all of that and replace it with hundreds of dollars worth of parts that will make it nearly unstable, run extremely hot and give me an extra 1% of frequency response? It's all bulljive to me now. Just plugging something up and dropping a few plugs into my template and moving along is so much less stressful. I can worry about other things now, like what is for lunch or even making sure the singer is getting enough water during takes instead of wondering if the LA2A clone is adding too much harmonics compared to an original. The workflow improvements going mostly ITB have been worth more than anything. The minor differences in tone have not been a stumbling block in the least. With great respect, I honestly don’t understand this attitude and thinking. Could you imagine the same thing applied to songwriting. I don’t care anymore I’ve shaken off the chains and I don’t agonise anymore about which key I write in I just use C major no black keys to worry about. I don’t agonise over the chords and melody - I just go for the standard patterns and nice easy lyrics about easy vanilla subjects …. Ok I’m being silly - but the point for me is everything matters when I’m creating art. I pour my heart and soul into every aspect from agonising over the tiniest chord voicing and melodic choice to picking out the perfect pre and mic for the acoustic guitar part - definitely using Vovox solid core mic cable! Maybe it’s a pointless approach, but I have no choice it’s built into my DNA to always take the road less travelled. I think you're applying your apples to my oranges. I'm speaking of overthinking things to the detriment of all else. If I'm sitting there worrying about some small details all the time, then I've probably lost the big picture. For me, as I've mentioned before, it was all about chasing tone while thinking I could buy/build/mod my way into quality work. I lost a lot of money and time thinking that better hardware could short-circuit the need for developing skill. It only gets you so far and then when you're over the bell curve it only helps show your lack of skill. The short story is that I spent ALL my time looking for perfection in the gear and none of it by learning HOW to record/mix. The amount of skill that I did collect was often overshadowed by GAS and the feeling of inadequacy that was quelled by having new and cool gear that I believed would leapfrog me past others... And when it didn't, then it was clearly the wrong gear and I needed NEW and BETTER gear.. Right? (WRONG). Once I stopped obsessing over tiny details in the gear, I was able to focus on the larger things that mattered to the overall product much more than whether or not my SM57 was made in USA-made in 1982 or if it was a mexican-made one in 2010 and so on.. So obsessing over small details can be fun and fulfilling but at some point it hurts you more than it helps because it keeps you circling the drain instead of moving ahead. |
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Post by svart on Oct 6, 2023 9:28:31 GMT -6
It's all good. We each have our ways of working. I'm simply pointing out that it's not as black and white as I used to think it was. Still lots of people out there will die on the hill of "this is the only way" and I used to be one of them.. Until I wasn't. I still think that people don't give things (anything really) a solid chance when they have strong opinions. I see it a lot in "artistic" circles where emotion is equally important as skill for obtaining the desired end result. It's just how people are. They'll swear up and down that they've done the homework but most of the time they haven't. The do a little, hit a mild pebble in the road and then throw up their hands and give up and then be even more convinced their way was the right way. The workflow improvements going mostly ITB have been worth more than anything. The minor differences in tone have not been a stumbling block in the least. For me it's an ever evolving landscape that shifts tonally, I've been in the I don't care camp all the way back to HW is a must. The reality is things change, I look back at some of my old productions and they're not what I'd look for today. The way I approach things is different, how I want something to sound is different and the end result is different.
Simply put I don't really have a definitive answer and even if I did it could be invalidated three months down the line, I certainly have observations though. For example most VCA's have a certain sound to me until I met one recently which falls more in line with a typical vocal opto sound. More so than the two other Opto's I have, hmm... For me it has made a massive difference because it's a two way street, it reacts differently to my voice causing me to sing differently then we have both a performance and HW impact. If multiple factors change there's going to be a very notable difference.
Here's the other thing, I look at this from a holistic standpoint. I don't really get much information from testing dry mic's with no processing. Even a mildly used comp in the chain might not have a major impact. When it's been through a chain of comps, a desk, a de-esser, EQ etc. then the differences start to stack quickly and that includes the methodology I chose on that day. Sure, in the grand scheme it is the song and arrangement that matters the most. On occasion something that's not all that well recorded (sometimes on purpose) has punched through to the top but that doesn't mean the equipment or approach can't heavily impact the end result. Whether that really matters to the listener or not? Well there's too many opposing anecdotes or observations to ever really find something solid.
Generally though the people putting that much effort in do so at every stage and there is a certain consistency to a lot of mass consumed music. So, ultimately I just try to find things that make life easy for me to achieve the sonic quality or effect I desire, sometimes that's hardware and other times it's software. Whatever it takes..
I think you sort of point out something I was alluding to.. I used to think of sound in terms of "this needs a VCA compressor" or "this needs an opto" and it used to send me down all kinds of rabbit holes studying the different kinds of VCAs/Optos/whatever. I used to take pride in knowing all these little details because it made me feel knowledgeable.. But in the end I was failing to utilize the small details to any effectiveness. It turns out that I simply don't need to know these things. I only need to know which device will give me the envelope that I need. And even then, the program material greatly affects the outcome too, so that opens up even more avenues of chasing geese. For example, I don't *need* to compress my master bus to get the overall level up, but I want the drums to be very obvious. I would choose to use a compressor with a fairly quick attack and fast-medium release. Does it really matter if it's opto or vca or FET if I can adjust these settings to get the desired GR without pumping like crazy? I used to think so, but I no longer believe it's even relevant. The only relevant thing is that it sounds like I want it to sound in the end. I also don't think engineers of yore cared about these things. They used what they had available and made it work, usually because hardware has always been comparatively expensive and not all studios could afford racks full of gear. We have it easy today. Loads of clones, loads of simulators, loads of places for information. We are inundated with so much *audio stuff* that I think a lot of people forget that most of these discussions about which piece of gear is more authentic or which plug has best modelling of a transistor never happened before a handful of years ago. Before then, people just used what the studio had. |
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Post by notneeson on Oct 6, 2023 10:14:45 GMT -6
For me it's an ever evolving landscape that shifts tonally, I've been in the I don't care camp all the way back to HW is a must. The reality is things change, I look back at some of my old productions and they're not what I'd look for today. The way I approach things is different, how I want something to sound is different and the end result is different.
Simply put I don't really have a definitive answer and even if I did it could be invalidated three months down the line, I certainly have observations though. For example most VCA's have a certain sound to me until I met one recently which falls more in line with a typical vocal opto sound. More so than the two other Opto's I have, hmm... For me it has made a massive difference because it's a two way street, it reacts differently to my voice causing me to sing differently then we have both a performance and HW impact. If multiple factors change there's going to be a very notable difference.
Here's the other thing, I look at this from a holistic standpoint. I don't really get much information from testing dry mic's with no processing. Even a mildly used comp in the chain might not have a major impact. When it's been through a chain of comps, a desk, a de-esser, EQ etc. then the differences start to stack quickly and that includes the methodology I chose on that day. Sure, in the grand scheme it is the song and arrangement that matters the most. On occasion something that's not all that well recorded (sometimes on purpose) has punched through to the top but that doesn't mean the equipment or approach can't heavily impact the end result. Whether that really matters to the listener or not? Well there's too many opposing anecdotes or observations to ever really find something solid.
Generally though the people putting that much effort in do so at every stage and there is a certain consistency to a lot of mass consumed music. So, ultimately I just try to find things that make life easy for me to achieve the sonic quality or effect I desire, sometimes that's hardware and other times it's software. Whatever it takes..
I think you sort of point out something I was alluding to.. I used to think of sound in terms of "this needs a VCA compressor" or "this needs an opto" and it used to send me down all kinds of rabbit holes studying the different kinds of VCAs/Optos/whatever. I used to take pride in knowing all these little details because it made me feel knowledgeable.. But in the end I was failing to utilize the small details to any effectiveness. It turns out that I simply don't need to know these things. I only need to know which device will give me the envelope that I need. And even then, the program material greatly affects the outcome too, so that opens up even more avenues of chasing geese. For example, I don't *need* to compress my master bus to get the overall level up, but I want the drums to be very obvious. I would choose to use a compressor with a fairly quick attack and fast-medium release. Does it really matter if it's opto or vca or FET if I can adjust these settings to get the desired GR without pumping like crazy? I used to think so, but I no longer believe it's even relevant. The only relevant thing is that it sounds like I want it to sound in the end. I also don't think engineers of yore cared about these things. They used what they had available and made it work, usually because hardware has always been comparatively expensive and not all studios could afford racks full of gear. We have it easy today. Loads of clones, loads of simulators, loads of places for information. We are inundated with so much *audio stuff* that I think a lot of people forget that most of these discussions about which piece of gear is more authentic or which plug has best modelling of a transistor never happened before a handful of years ago. Before then, people just used what the studio had. One fun thing about analog is that moment when you pull up a different session and the routing goes wonky— that's how you find out that opto compressor that supposedly "isn't for drums" kills on kick or whatever. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2023 11:59:43 GMT -6
I think you sort of point out something I was alluding to.. I believe the only real difference between our thought train is how much something matters, a specfic chain can make a lot of difference to me (some of them don't but that's a different topic). I'll be straight up here, I come to these forums to converse about the deeper side of audio with cool people. Although, the audio equipment side is no more than a means to an end and a specific toolset to use (I'm far from the only engineer I've met that feels this way), the LA-2A for me might as well be a Ryobi drill. I care about the music, how I get to my end goals is sorta irrelevant..
That being said, right tools for the job and that's been a learning experience.
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Post by christophert on Oct 6, 2023 15:11:28 GMT -6
I'm running out of popcorn Looking forward to patching in my hardware on the next mix - I might patch in a few more items after reading some of these posts. What converters do you use for channel I/O to hardware? My main converters are a Crane song HEDD 192, so that takes care of tracking and mixing through hardware. To come out to hardware for channels I’d need a dedicated system and I’m looking at about 5-6K for an 8 channel Burl mothership 16 AES loaded with an 8 channel AD and 8 channel DA. Not cheap to do properly and preserve the signal I tracked with the HEDD 192. I looked a cheaper ADA’s from Ferrofish but I’ve concluded I’d probably be better staying in the box until I can get something really pro from Burl? I'm using Antelope Galaxy / Mytek 8x192 and Dangerous. I need 40 inputs for tracking. I looked into the Burls, but could not justify the huge price for 40 channels |
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