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Post by tasteliketape on Sept 21, 2023 11:30:55 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2023 11:44:51 GMT -6
Prices still far too high and tier differentiated software doesn’t fly. Avid needs to make a dent in the home and project studio crowd but Logic is 200 dollars and Reaper is 60/225. Pro Tools HDX might be dominant in the commercial studios and finally has a hybrid engine but Logic and Reaper own the market for younger users in genres not made with pirated copies of Ableton or FL.
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Post by ml on Sept 21, 2023 12:03:09 GMT -6
Prices still far too high and tier differentiated software doesn’t fly. Avid needs to make a dent in the home and project studio crowd but Logic is 200 dollars and Reaper is 60/225. Pro Tools HDX might be dominant in the commercial studios and finally has a hybrid engine but Logic and Reaper own the market for younger users in genres not made with pirated copies of Ableton or FL. Buuuut they have Pro Tools “intro” with a whopping 8 track limit! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2023 15:44:06 GMT -6
Prices still far too high and tier differentiated software doesn’t fly. Avid needs to make a dent in the home and project studio crowd.. Sorry Dan, got to disagree. HDX within its own eco-system has always been for me the most reliable, hassle free and latency devoid system you could ever have. Unfortunately under Avid ownership they treat it like some sort of cash cow demanding extortionate prices. The "current" Avid doesn't need to make a dent in the home or project studio, there's many options for that. When it comes to business or serious project / studio's *(Note 1) there's still nothing like it (I'm not sure where Luna is at the moment but it was lacking a lot in comparison), for one they actually respond to support requests in a reasonable manor. I submitted a bug with my Pro Tools Studio (not Ultimate) license and it was fixed in 24 hours. That's incredible for any software business, I've done a bit of post, mixing, scoring, mastering etc. and on some schedules I could not afford gotcha's, workarounds etc. and I really do not like swapping between DAW's. Pro Tools did it all with no fuss..
What I've never understood about Pro Tools is their lower tiers, Pro Tools Studio is finally worth a look but it does lack some basic functionality if you don't have an Avid interface. Latency on RTT for HW inserts isn't a problem with their equipment but try that with a third party? Hmm.. Logic and others have an RTT ping tool, it wouldn't take much for them to have it but they want you on HD. Back in 2011 it was ten times worse, it lacked all sorts of functionality like side chain compensation that was available in HDX but nowhere to be seen in Pro Tools lesser tiers.
HD (or ultimate) for me was a simple, multi-facted, all in one easy to use piece of software. The only real competitor (to an extent) was Nuendo and that ain't cheap either..
Note 1: I'm not saying that serious studio's can't do wonders with any DAW but I hope you can see my POV here. Note 2: I don't know if the new company (or ownership) will keep this up but I've never paid full price with Avid, I went with equipment bundles, crossgrades etc.
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Post by drbill on Sept 21, 2023 18:59:27 GMT -6
I hate updating my computer constantly. I buy a perpetual license from Avid, download the latest version, wait a year till my perpetual license is about to be non-supported, and then upgrade again. i.e. if I bought in Jan, 2019, I'll upgrade it again in Jan 2020. Then I get busy and make music. For a couple of years.
Then, two or three (or more) years later, I buy another perpetual license, and hold it till I'm ready to upgrade again. Then I get the latest, plus a year of updates. Works for me. Most of the perpetual licenses I have bought have been in the $3-400 range. For me, it ends up being around $75-100 per year.
TOTALLY REASONABLE!! (IMO of course.) For someone who wants to be constantly updating their OS and PT revision, the subscription would be necessary I guess. But that's not me....
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Post by niklas1073 on Sept 22, 2023 5:16:16 GMT -6
I think this is great news. I always hated the subscription idea. Always had the perpetual myself and bought the upgrade maybe every 3-5 years. Usually in combination with upgrade on new mac as that usually requires an upgrade on pt too. Got the last perpetuals when they were about to quit them. But this is nice. The update plan is about 200. So in 10 years ive paid maybe 700 all and all if i managed to go 5 of them with the initial purchase… so 70 bucks per year. And the next 10 drops to 40/year.
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Post by seawell on Sept 22, 2023 10:32:07 GMT -6
This is awesome! Not being penalized for your subscription or perpetual license lapsing is the best part to me. I just checked my account, I last bought a perpetual license in 2016 and I can upgrade now for $399. I've been on a subscription for several years now but I really don't need to have every version that comes out so I'll gladly get back to updating every 2-3 years instead. Between this and Waves having to turn tail and run I hope these companies are starting to realize a subscription only model is not what most people want in pro audio.
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Post by niklas1073 on Sept 22, 2023 11:09:07 GMT -6
When avid announced a few years ago they would switch away from perpetual, and I actually thought this might be the last perpetual I get to buy. I decided that if they would eventually drop the perpetual I would not continue with pt. I already made an escape plan where I calculated I could actually get by with Luna, especially if they keep developing it.
Around the same time I dropped all plugin vendors that had this almost yearly upgrade requirements to keep them up with my os. This I have discussed on another thread here but it kind goes hand in hand here.
I do still stick with pt as long as its perpetual, maybe partially out of laziness to make a huge switch, since its the only daw I actually know how to use and it’s still an industry standard you will find loads of support from the communities. Which I feel for example UA is extremely limited in due to limited usage.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2023 15:22:05 GMT -6
Prices still far too high and tier differentiated software doesn’t fly. Avid needs to make a dent in the home and project studio crowd.. Sorry Dan, got to disagree. HDX within its own eco-system has always been for me the most reliable, hassle free and latency devoid system you could ever have. Unfortunately under Avid ownership they treat it like some sort of cash cow demanding extortionate prices. The "current" Avid doesn't need to make a dent in the home or project studio, there's many options for that. When it comes to business or serious project / studio's *(Note 1) there's still nothing like it (I'm not sure where Luna is at the moment but it was lacking a lot in comparison), for one they actually respond to support requests in a reasonable manor. I submitted a bug with my Pro Tools Studio (not Ultimate) license and it was fixed in 24 hours. That's incredible for any software business, I've done a bit of post, mixing, scoring, mastering etc. and on some schedules I could not afford gotcha's, workarounds etc. and I really do not like swapping between DAW's. Pro Tools did it all with no fuss..
What I've never understood about Pro Tools is their lower tiers, Pro Tools Studio is finally worth a look but it does lack some basic functionality if you don't have an Avid interface. Latency on RTT for HW inserts isn't a problem with their equipment but try that with a third party? Hmm.. Logic and others have an RTT ping tool, it wouldn't take much for them to have it but they want you on HD. Back in 2011 it was ten times worse, it lacked all sorts of functionality like side chain compensation that was available in HDX but nowhere to be seen in Pro Tools lesser tiers.
HD (or ultimate) for me was a simple, multi-facted, all in one easy to use piece of software. The only real competitor (to an extent) was Nuendo and that ain't cheap either..
Note 1: I'm not saying that serious studio's can't do wonders with any DAW but I hope you can see my POV here. Note 2: I don't know if the new company (or ownership) will keep this up but I've never paid full price with Avid, I went with equipment bundles, crossgrades etc.
HDX engine was inexistent for modern mixing until 2021 when Avid finally admitted that AAX DSP was dead on arrival and implemented the hybrid engine. Now HDX cards work more like UAD Apollos and Metric Halo interface dsp but it’s a bit more centralized and runs part of the computer daw on the interface. Native daws are perfectly reliable for recording large amounts of simultaneous tracks. That is not a cpu demanding application or even a demand on the i/o busses of a computer since PCI, FireWire, and USB 2. The biggest issue is the quality and speed of interface drivers. Avid’s own are not particular fast. Avid should have never developed HDX and should have ditched the antiquated Motorola DSP chip based TDM sooner. They should’ve just written key features into native pro tools, written iron clad system requirements into the program, and written low latency drivers but that still evades them when they should’ve done it back in the FireWire days. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2023 15:33:29 GMT -6
I hate updating my computer constantly. I buy a perpetual license from Avid, download the latest version, wait a year till my perpetual license is about to be non-supported, and then upgrade again. i.e. if I bought in Jan, 2019, I'll upgrade it again in Jan 2020. Then I get busy and make music. For a couple of years. Then, two or three (or more) years later, I buy another perpetual license, and hold it till I'm ready to upgrade again. Then I get the latest, plus a year of updates. Works for me. Most of the perpetual licenses I have bought have been in the $3-400 range. For me, it ends up being around $75-100 per year. TOTALLY REASONABLE!! (IMO of course.) For someone who wants to be constantly updating their OS and PT revision, the subscription would be necessary I guess. But that's not me.... Avid has a ton of regular worthy updates. They now have the HDX hybrid engine, better processor scheduling, and have fixed a lot of things behind the scenes to no longer make pro tools the black sheep of daws. Pro Tools and Reaper are the daws that have improved the most in stability over the past couple of years. |
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Post by seawell on Sept 23, 2023 16:28:37 GMT -6
Sorry Dan, got to disagree. HDX within its own eco-system has always been for me the most reliable, hassle free and latency devoid system you could ever have. Unfortunately under Avid ownership they treat it like some sort of cash cow demanding extortionate prices. The "current" Avid doesn't need to make a dent in the home or project studio, there's many options for that. When it comes to business or serious project / studio's *(Note 1) there's still nothing like it (I'm not sure where Luna is at the moment but it was lacking a lot in comparison), for one they actually respond to support requests in a reasonable manor. I submitted a bug with my Pro Tools Studio (not Ultimate) license and it was fixed in 24 hours. That's incredible for any software business, I've done a bit of post, mixing, scoring, mastering etc. and on some schedules I could not afford gotcha's, workarounds etc. and I really do not like swapping between DAW's. Pro Tools did it all with no fuss..
What I've never understood about Pro Tools is their lower tiers, Pro Tools Studio is finally worth a look but it does lack some basic functionality if you don't have an Avid interface. Latency on RTT for HW inserts isn't a problem with their equipment but try that with a third party? Hmm.. Logic and others have an RTT ping tool, it wouldn't take much for them to have it but they want you on HD. Back in 2011 it was ten times worse, it lacked all sorts of functionality like side chain compensation that was available in HDX but nowhere to be seen in Pro Tools lesser tiers.
HD (or ultimate) for me was a simple, multi-facted, all in one easy to use piece of software. The only real competitor (to an extent) was Nuendo and that ain't cheap either..
Note 1: I'm not saying that serious studio's can't do wonders with any DAW but I hope you can see my POV here. Note 2: I don't know if the new company (or ownership) will keep this up but I've never paid full price with Avid, I went with equipment bundles, crossgrades etc.
HDX engine was inexistent for modern mixing until 2021 when Avid finally admitted that AAX DSP was dead on arrival and implemented the hybrid engine. Now HDX cards work more like UAD Apollos and Metric Halo interface dsp but it’s a bit more centralized and runs part of the computer daw on the interface. Native daws are perfectly reliable for recording large amounts of simultaneous tracks. That is not a cpu demanding application or even a demand on the i/o busses of a computer since PCI, FireWire, and USB 2. The biggest issue is the quality and speed of interface drivers. Avid’s own are not particular fast. Avid should have never developed HDX and should have ditched the antiquated Motorola DSP chip based TDM sooner. They should’ve just written key features into native pro tools, written iron clad system requirements into the program, and written low latency drivers but that still evades them when they should’ve done it back in the FireWire days. A HDX rig has never really been about DSP power for mixing, it's about having the lowest latency tracking and seamless delay compensation for hardware inserts. Two invaluable things once you've experienced them. I know there are other DAWS out there that meet the needs of their user base but I'm more surprised no one else has made a better DSP Card based system to compete with Avid as opposed to Avid trying to emulate the native based DAWs. For all the things there are to like about Studio One, Logic, Luna, etc.., none of them have put together something to actually compete with Avid across the board if you're doing a lot of tracking and hybrid mixing. I made two pretty serious attempts to switch DAWs over the years and both times I came away appreciating Pro Tools a lot more. It's just fashionable to knock it for whatever reason. |
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Post by mythundreamt on Sept 23, 2023 17:31:46 GMT -6
A HDX rig has never really been about DSP power for mixing, it's about having the lowest latency tracking and seamless delay compensation for hardware inserts. Two invaluable things once you've experienced them. I know there are other DAWS out there that meet the needs of their user base but I'm more surprised no one else has made a better DSP Card based system to compete with Avid as opposed to Avid trying to emulate the native based DAWs. For all the things there are to like about Studio One, Logic, Luna, etc.., none of them have put together something to actually compete with Avid across the board if you're doing a lot of tracking and hybrid mixing. I made two pretty serious attempts to switch DAWs over the years and both times I'm came away appreciating Pro Tools a lot more. It's just fashionable to knock it for whatever reason. This is a brilliant write up, thank you. If I was king of the world it would be a sticky on every pro audio site. It took me way too long to figure this out myself. |
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Post by notneeson on Sept 23, 2023 17:32:39 GMT -6
This feels like a Mac thread. All the Windows homies coming out of the woodwork to talk about how much they love Winamp. 😂
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 23, 2023 17:34:56 GMT -6
HDX engine was inexistent for modern mixing until 2021 when Avid finally admitted that AAX DSP was dead on arrival and implemented the hybrid engine. Now HDX cards work more like UAD Apollos and Metric Halo interface dsp but it’s a bit more centralized and runs part of the computer daw on the interface. Native daws are perfectly reliable for recording large amounts of simultaneous tracks. That is not a cpu demanding application or even a demand on the i/o busses of a computer since PCI, FireWire, and USB 2. The biggest issue is the quality and speed of interface drivers. Avid’s own are not particular fast. Avid should have never developed HDX and should have ditched the antiquated Motorola DSP chip based TDM sooner. They should’ve just written key features into native pro tools, written iron clad system requirements into the program, and written low latency drivers but that still evades them when they should’ve done it back in the FireWire days. A HDX rig has never really been about DSP power for mixing, it's about having the lowest latency tracking and seamless delay compensation for hardware inserts. Two invaluable things once you've experienced them. I know there are other DAWS out there that meet the needs of their user base but I'm more surprised no one else has made a better DSP Card based system to compete with Avid as opposed to Avid trying to emulate the native based DAWs. For all the things there are to like about Studio One, Logic, Luna, etc.., none of them have put together something to actually compete with Avid across the board if you're doing a lot of tracking and hybrid mixing. I made two pretty serious attempts to switch DAWs over the years and both times I'm came away appreciating Pro Tools a lot more. It's just fashionable to knock it for whatever reason. Harrison, Yamaha, SSL Fairlight and a few others have understood the advantages of low latency, they just applied it to consoles vs the DAW. PT is really the only DAW that is built for true large scale post, Foley and ADR, the fact that low latency DSP systems also are great for multitrack recording is a bonus. |
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Post by seawell on Sept 23, 2023 19:00:36 GMT -6
A HDX rig has never really been about DSP power for mixing, it's about having the lowest latency tracking and seamless delay compensation for hardware inserts. Two invaluable things once you've experienced them. I know there are other DAWS out there that meet the needs of their user base but I'm more surprised no one else has made a better DSP Card based system to compete with Avid as opposed to Avid trying to emulate the native based DAWs. For all the things there are to like about Studio One, Logic, Luna, etc.., none of them have put together something to actually compete with Avid across the board if you're doing a lot of tracking and hybrid mixing. I made two pretty serious attempts to switch DAWs over the years and both times I'm came away appreciating Pro Tools a lot more. It's just fashionable to knock it for whatever reason. This is a brilliant write up, thank you. If I was king of the world it would be a sticky on every pro audio site. It took me way too long to figure this out myself. Haha thanks! The funny thing is, you start to notice a trend where most of the online slagging of Pro Tools is by people who have A) Never used it, B) Never recorded a full drum kit and C) Never inserted a piece of hardware in a mix. No offense to those dudes but if you don't do those things then of course you won't see the value in HDX but that also doesn't mean that it isn't the best tool for those of us that do. Particularly for the used prices a HDX 1 card system goes for these days, I think a lot of people would be doing themselves a huge favor by giving it a try. |
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Post by bgrotto on Sept 23, 2023 20:04:20 GMT -6
Yeah hdx is all about latency latency latency. Easily the best integration of low latency cue mixing, and it gets reaaaaal hard to live without once you gotten used to it.
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Post by drbill on Sept 23, 2023 20:49:50 GMT -6
HDX all the way. Never turning back.
120 inserts across 2 different types of interfaces, and 100+ channels of outboard - sometimes with 4-5 or more hardware inserts per track - and the most I ever have to think about latency is....one click and delay compensation is on. Done. Happy Bill....
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Post by christophert on Sept 23, 2023 23:11:56 GMT -6
Yeah hdx is all about latency latency latency. Easily the best integration of low latency cue mixing, and it gets reaaaaal hard to live without once you gotten used to it. Yep - never dealing with latency issues when recording. |
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Post by paulnajar on Sept 24, 2023 4:42:52 GMT -6
HDX all the way. Never turning back. 120 inserts across 2 different types of interfaces, and 100+ channels of outboard - sometimes with 4-5 or more hardware inserts per track - and the most I ever have to think about latency is....one click and delay compensation is on. Done. Happy Bill.... Hoping to learn a thing or two here. While I’ve been a PT user in the past, for the longest time I’ve done everything in Logic and let my PT license stop at V10. I don’t run the huge hardware IO insert numbers as you Dr Bill but I do have around 25 - 30 hardware inserts on every mix these days - all in Logic. The delay compensation is not something that has crossed my conscious mind for some time now. Logic IO plugins have a ping function to figure that out - and for me it just works. In fact I have to thank you Dr Bill for sharing your signal flow with me in another thread here some months ago that set me onto my current workflow/ signal flow when mixing that I’m very happy with:-) On the tracking side all my sessions have been at 96Khz for a few years now. 16 - 24 tracks are no problem at about 3ms RTL and deriving all my cue mixes from within Logic back to performers. I’m using RME audio hardware and I know they are pretty well top of the heap for low native latency while having low CPU overhead. Maybe HDX does better than this RTL when tracking but I would love to know for sure - and - maybe nowadays there are other alternatives for low RTL when tracking and and reliable latency compensation when using lots of hardware IO inserts when mixing? |
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Post by seawell on Sept 24, 2023 10:06:14 GMT -6
HDX all the way. Never turning back. 120 inserts across 2 different types of interfaces, and 100+ channels of outboard - sometimes with 4-5 or more hardware inserts per track - and the most I ever have to think about latency is....one click and delay compensation is on. Done. Happy Bill.... Hoping to learn a thing or two here. While I’ve been a PT user in the past, for the longest time I’ve done everything in Logic and let my PT license stop at V10. I don’t run the huge hardware IO insert numbers as you Dr Bill but I do have around 25 - 30 hardware inserts on every mix these days - all in Logic. The delay compensation is not something that has crossed my conscious mind for some time now. Logic IO plugins have a ping function to figure that out - and for me it just works. In fact I have to thank you Dr Bill for sharing your signal flow with me in another thread here some months ago that set me onto my current workflow/ signal flow when mixing that I’m very happy with:-) On the tracking side all my sessions have been at 96Khz for a few years now. 16 - 24 tracks are no problem at about 3ms RTL and deriving all my cue mixes from within Logic back to performers. I’m using RME audio hardware and I know they are pretty well top of the heap for low native latency while having low CPU overhead. Maybe HDX does better than this RTL when tracking but I would love to know for sure - and - maybe nowadays there are other alternatives for low RTL when tracking and and reliable latency compensation when using lots of hardware IO inserts when mixing? At 96kHz/64-sample buffer you get 0.7ms latency on HDX. That's the setting I usually track on. |
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Post by ml on Sept 24, 2023 14:20:50 GMT -6
This is a brilliant write up, thank you. If I was king of the world it would be a sticky on every pro audio site. It took me way too long to figure this out myself. Haha thanks! The funny thing is, you start to notice a trend where most of the online slagging of Pro Tools is by people who have A) Never used it, B) Never recorded a full drum kit and C) Never inserted a piece of hardware in a mix. No offense to those dudes but if you don't do those things then of course you won't see the value in HDX but that also doesn't mean that it isn't the best tool for those of us that do. Particularly for the used prices a HDX 1 card system goes for these days, I think a lot of people would be doing themselves a huge favor by giving it a try. My only gripe with pro tools is that its hard to recommend it to someone just starting out. Most newbs would rather spend $200 bucks on logic and be done VS subscribing $100/yr for PT artist. But we all know that $200 bucks is also too much for them, so they will download a pirated version of Logic instead! haha |
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Post by paulnajar on Sept 24, 2023 15:39:26 GMT -6
At 96kHz/64-sample buffer you get 0.7ms latency on HDX. That's the setting I usually track on. Not wanting to hijack this thread but is that 0.7ms in & out or just one direction? Also should have mentioned my 3ms is on a 64 sample buffer. My mac studio can manage 32 buffer at 96Khz for about 1.6ms round trip but the 3ms @64 buffer is a lot safer. Kind regards |
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Post by christopher on Sept 24, 2023 16:24:30 GMT -6
$1500 for an automated software delivery? Good luck to all. We’ll see how long before it gets sold again. Look from their side: it’s the same program as it always is, they just need money. It costs them nothing to get your money, it’s their decision. My guess $750 a year from now
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Sept 24, 2023 18:29:12 GMT -6
I'll throw gas on this and say that all other DAWs suck ass. Especially Reaper.
Edit: GUI and workflow-wise. Nothing compares.
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Post by christophert on Sept 24, 2023 20:27:25 GMT -6
In a pro studio environment, when moving sessions between studios / producers / film companies, PT HDX is the standard, and the best option.
Even at $750 every couple of years, it is nothing compared to the time cost of continually bouncing stems to share with everyone.
I'm no fan boy of Avid at all - but I do cherish the huge time (cost) saving by being compatible with the industry, the stability of the software, and never having to deal with latency.
It just works.
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