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Post by plinker on Aug 29, 2023 22:46:59 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 29, 2023 23:17:46 GMT -6
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Post by bricejchandler on Aug 30, 2023 1:08:30 GMT -6
drbill that just tells me that the dealers don’t update their sites. That is not the point I’ve been trying to make. I really don’t know how to better communicate it. bricejchandler this is the first time I’m hearing of this issue. And I have spent time of late going through Flea related threads, and I hadn’t picked up on anything remotely similar. But cool, moving on. Yeah, I just did a quick GS search and was able to easily find 2 threads where there were mentions of this, and I remember reading about it quite a few times in the last 5 years or so, and the Flea response was that their site hadn't been updated, this was when Flea was still advertising the wrong tubes on their own site, now from what I understand it's only on some dealer sites. But in the end it is Flea's responsibility to have an updated website and dealer blurbs. Ultimately not a huge huge deal, particularly in the world of boutique mic builders, where being ghosted or never receiving a mic is far too common. |
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Post by timcampbell on Aug 30, 2023 4:16:46 GMT -6
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Post by paulcheeba on Aug 30, 2023 4:36:39 GMT -6
drbill that just tells me that the dealers don’t update their sites. That is not the point I’ve been trying to make. I really don’t know how to better communicate it. bricejchandler this is the first time I’m hearing of this issue. And I have spent time of late going through Flea related threads, and I hadn’t picked up on anything remotely similar. But cool, moving on. Yeah, I just did a quick GS search and was able to easily find 2 threads where there were mentions of this, and I remember reading about it quite a few times in the last 5 years or so, and the Flea response was that their site hadn't been updated, this was when Flea was still advertising the wrong tubes on their own site, now from what I understand it's only on some dealer sites. But in the end it is Flea's responsibility to have an updated website and dealer blurbs. Ultimately not a huge huge deal, particularly in the world of boutique mic builders, where being ghosted or never receiving a mic is far too common. It's the first time it's been highlighted in it's own threads as it's getting worse the more NOS disappear. They seem to say crazy stuff now like the E80F being better than the EF12 after using the EF12 for 20 years. People randomly getting FET "tubes" is a problem too when the mic is called vintage. They'll miss Andreas Grosser as I think he brought a lot to the party with his electronic wisdom. They need someone like Martin Kantola to help out on the tech side. |
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Post by timcampbell on Aug 30, 2023 4:43:10 GMT -6
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 30, 2023 4:46:42 GMT -6
When I complain about products or services I have received that have not to been to my personal standards - I don't expect to provide photographic evidence at the first instance because I don't appreciate the inference I am a liar and the all the companies I've dealt over the decades must get that, because I've never been asked! Not until the point they are ready to offer a remedy, at which point a receipt or photograph is a perfectly reasonable exchange. It used to be called .... "the customer is always right" (within the limits of the law) Now with social media the customer isn't just always right - they're also always LOUD! Restaurants and hotels have never been better IME  |
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Post by suicity on Aug 30, 2023 6:22:55 GMT -6
When I complain about products or services I have received that have not to been to my personal standards - I don't expect to provide photographic evidence at the first instance because I don't appreciate the inference I am a liar and the all the companies I've dealt over the decades must get that, because I've never been asked! Not until the point they are ready to offer a remedy, at which point a receipt or photograph is a perfectly reasonable exchange. It used to be called .... "the customer is always right" (within the limits of the law) Now with social media the customer isn't just always right - they're also always LOUD! Restaurants and hotels have never been better IME This is absolutely nonsensical. No business would survive if they took every claim at face value. If you had a problem with your car and went to the dealer and said "it pulls to the left.", you can be damn sure they'll take it for a test drive before pulling anything apart. It would be wasted resources and wasted time to commence on any remediation without first testing for the problem. (i.e. finding evidence of a fault) In the case of this discussion, here and on GS, people are remote, and they likely have bought product remotely. The request for photographic evidence of the claim is well within the bounds of reason. And no, the customer is NOT always right. But, you are correct in saying that the customer is now always loud because they can be via social media. I don't know what has happened in the last 10 years, but it seems as if the request for evidence from someone making a claim is the equivalent of stealing their child. The term "unsubstantiated claim" exists for a reason. And in the courts, including the court of public opinion, there should be no issue presenting evidence when requested. timcampbell proved in the GS thread that the photo taken by Paul of a C12 capsule was not one of Tim's capsules. It's also been shown in this thread that FLEA's marketing blurb on their own website has been correct as far back as 2020. bricejchandler besides the current cluster#@$%@#$ on GS, the only other comments I could find re Flea and tube were from earlier this year. But thanks for pointing out that there was existing commentary. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 30, 2023 6:48:12 GMT -6
Tim’s request for pics was, I believe, to confirm which version of cap that Paul’s mike had, in order to create some accurate baseline info about the cap and its properties.
This would inform discussion about options.
Paul not appreciating the sound of a cap is his prerogative bjt implying on a public forum, this is because of poor design/build quality is another thing.
If the builder of the cap asks for info about the cap to try to be constructive and its not provided, that doesn’t seem the way to go.
I get the feeling, the cap in question has not been sent to Tim for retuning: to me that would seem a constructive thing to do: working in partnership with the builder on a mutually beneficial reasonable remedy.
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Post by bricejchandler on Aug 30, 2023 6:50:27 GMT -6
Go through the "FLEA or not to flea" discussion from GS from like 8 years ago and at one point the discussion is identical to the current one on GS, not quite as intense it's true...and Flea even commented and ultimately updated their website.
Another poster from 2020, in the Just bought a FLEA 47 thread, totally surprised by the fact he's getting an E80F, and I literally found these in 30 seconds.
So it's not a new thing at all, and I can understand frustration when you're buying a mic that is supposed to have an NOS tube in it and in fact you get one with the Grosser fet tube.
I remember all these threads because I considering a Flea 47 a couple years back and reading those comments kind of turned me off.
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Post by timcampbell on Aug 30, 2023 6:51:59 GMT -6
I would just like to add that ANYBODY, including Paul is entitled to the exact product they were promised. I think we all agree on that and I agree that FLEA and other manufacturers really need to be more vigilant about what their DEALERS promise. The real matter is what to do about it. If I had this problem and really wanted to solve it the easiest method would be to demand my dealer or FLEA make good on their promised tube. Not one person in these threads that I have asked has even mentioned that they approached their dealer or FLEA about feeling cheated, they have simply posted on various forums about it as if to throw shade.
This is a real problem. It is good it is being discussed. It makes me happy knowing that people will make sure they are getting what they are promised.
There are many threads here and elsewhere about buyers receiving the wrong product, contacting the manufacturer and then posting about what great service / or poor that they received about resolving it. This just feels a little like people wanting to have an excuse to complain.
Please, hold manufacturers to their word.
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Post by bricejchandler on Aug 30, 2023 7:16:26 GMT -6
timcampbellIn the older thread from 8 years ago on GS, people did contact their dealers and ultimately Flea did respond in the thread, and said they'd update their website etc... Anyway, I agree that people should contact their dealer or Flea directly, but I also don't see why one can't talk about their experience on a forum. One thing I disagree with here is when you say that manufacturers need to be more vigilant about what their dealers promise, If a manufacturer changes part of their design I find it's 100% their responsibility to inform dealers, to update their blurb. You can't expect Vintage King to check every other month with a brand if something has changed, or to check every single mic to see what tube is in it. In the Flea or no to flea thread, the response from Vintage King was that they had no idea what tube was in the mic and were just as surprised that it was a Grosser Fet as the poster. Anyway that thread went to hell too and was heavily moderated too with Plush ranting against anybody saying a bad word about Flea so when I saw the new GS thread I felt like it was deja vu.
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Post by timcampbell on Aug 30, 2023 7:34:38 GMT -6
Brice that still doesn't prove that FLEA didn't tell them, just that they were unaware. I just spoke to KMR in London today about their description on their webpage. Their text is not copy and pasted from FLEA but paraphrased by them in their own incorrect text. They asked me to please email them with the correct info because they couldn't even be bothered with checking the text on FLEA's homepage themselves.
I agree about discussing it on a forum, I just don't agree with complaining if you haven't even determined who is guilty or given anyone a chance to rectify it. I think someone owes Paul a GE 6072 tube, I just believe it is KMR and they should be given the chance to make good.
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Post by suicity on Aug 30, 2023 7:41:47 GMT -6
timcampbell In the older thread from 8 years ago on GS, people did contact their dealers and ultimately Flea did respond in the thread, and said they'd update their website etc... Anyway, I agree that people should contact their dealer or Flea directly, but I also don't see why one can't talk about their experience on a forum. One thing I disagree with here is when you say that manufacturers need to be more vigilant about what their dealers promise, If a manufacturer changes part of their design I find it's 100% their responsibility to inform dealers, to update their blurb. You can't expect Vintage King to check every other month with a brand if something has changed, or to check every single mic to see what tube is in it. In the Flea or no to flea thread, the response from Vintage King was that they had no idea what tube was in the mic and were just as surprised that it was a Grosser Fet as the poster. Anyway that thread went to hell too and was heavily moderated too with Plush ranting against anybody saying a bad word about Flea so when I saw the new GS thread I felt like it was deja vu. , yip, the "Just bought a Flea" thread is the one i checked out too, but if you look at the post by "Sound of Pirates" (if it's his post you're referring to) it's from 29 January 2023. The post directly above it is from 2020. Regarding onus on the manufacturer to inform their dealers, I agree. However, it is not beyond feasible that the dealers (who are dealing in hundreds of products, compared to the manufacturers who are only dealing in their own) are the ones to slip up, forget that they've been informed, had a change of staff since being informed, or just never gotten around to updating the website. |
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Post by bricejchandler on Aug 30, 2023 7:49:27 GMT -6
Brice that still doesn't prove that FLEA didn't tell them, just that they were unaware. I just spoke to KMR in London today about their description on their webpage. Their text is not copy and pasted from FLEA but paraphrased by them in their own incorrect text. They asked me to please email them with the correct info because they couldn't even be bothered with checking the text on FLEA's homepage themselves. Well that's just lazy for sure but I can't say I'm surprised, I've had so many dealers give me completely false information about gear that I knew was wrong that I've become quite cautious. I still think Flea should be more transparent with their tube selection instead of just shipping out mics without giving any info what so ever. It can't be that complicated to add on the box and shipping info, this mic is equipped with yada yada, I know their opinion is that all the mics sound the same whatever the tube is in it but we all know that's probably not true and also I mean we're talking about a huge investment for someone like me, it's not like we're talking about a Warm audio 47 and to me it always kind of felt a little negligent. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 30, 2023 7:51:04 GMT -6
When I complain about products or services I have received that have not to been to my personal standards - I don't expect to provide photographic evidence at the first instance because I don't appreciate the inference I am a liar and the all the companies I've dealt over the decades must get that, because I've never been asked! Not until the point they are ready to offer a remedy, at which point a receipt or photograph is a perfectly reasonable exchange. It used to be called .... "the customer is always right" (within the limits of the law) Now with social media the customer isn't just always right - they're also always LOUD! Restaurants and hotels have never been better IME This is absolutely nonsensical. No business would survive if they took every claim at face value. If you had a problem with your car and went to the dealer and said "it pulls to the left.", you can be damn sure they'll take it for a test drive before pulling anything apart. It would be wasted resources and wasted time to commence on any remediation without first testing for the problem. (i.e. finding evidence of a fault) In the case of this discussion, here and on GS, people are remote, and they likely have bought product remotely. The request for photographic evidence of the claim is well within the bounds of reason. And no, the customer is NOT always right. But, you are correct in saying that the customer is now always loud because they can be via social media. I don't know what has happened in the last 10 years, but it seems as if the request for evidence from someone making a claim is the equivalent of stealing their child. The term "unsubstantiated claim" exists for a reason. And in the courts, including the court of public opinion, there should be no issue presenting evidence when requested. timcampbell proved in the GS thread that the photo taken by Paul of a C12 capsule was not one of Tim's capsules. It's also been shown in this thread that FLEA's marketing blurb on their own website has been correct as far back as 2020. bricejchandler besides the current cluster#@$%@#$ on GS, the only other comments I could find re Flea and tube were from earlier this year. But thanks for pointing out that there was existing commentary. Look, your obviously entitled to your view and I’m fine with you thinking I’m talking b*llocks …. it’s the nature of the forum roundabout. I’m fortunate, I’ve been very successful with my own business and my approach had been very successful - thankfully! And as I said hotels and restaurants have never been better come to think of it the service I get from my local garage dealership has become spectacular …. all from consumer power and social media. That’s business life in 2023. Non sensical or not |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 30, 2023 7:52:30 GMT -6
When I complain about products or services I have received that have not to been to my personal standards - I don't expect to provide photographic evidence at the first instance because I don't appreciate the inference I am a liar and the all the companies I've dealt over the decades must get that, because I've never been asked! Not until the point they are ready to offer a remedy, at which point a receipt or photograph is a perfectly reasonable exchange. It used to be called .... "the customer is always right" (within the limits of the law) Now with social media the customer isn't just always right - they're also always LOUD! Restaurants and hotels have never been better IME This is absolutely nonsensical. No business would survive if they took every claim at face value. If you had a problem with your car and went to the dealer and said "it pulls to the left.", you can be damn sure they'll take it for a test drive before pulling anything apart. It would be wasted resources and wasted time to commence on any remediation without first testing for the problem. (i.e. finding evidence of a fault) In the case of this discussion, here and on GS, people are remote, and they likely have bought product remotely. The request for photographic evidence of the claim is well within the bounds of reason. And no, the customer is NOT always right. But, you are correct in saying that the customer is now always loud because they can be via social media. I don't know what has happened in the last 10 years, but it seems as if the request for evidence from someone making a claim is the equivalent of stealing their child. The term "unsubstantiated claim" exists for a reason. And in the courts, including the court of public opinion, there should be no issue presenting evidence when requested. timcampbell proved in the GS thread that the photo taken by Paul of a C12 capsule was not one of Tim's capsules. It's also been shown in this thread that FLEA's marketing blurb on their own website has been correct as far back as 2020. bricejchandler besides the current cluster#@$%@#$ on GS, the only other comments I could find re Flea and tube were from earlier this year. But thanks for pointing out that there was existing commentary. Look, your obviously entitled to your view and I’m fine with you thinking I’m talking b*llocks …. it’s the nature of the forum roundabout. I’m fortunate, I’ve been very successful with my own business and my approach has been very successful - thankfully! And as I said hotels and restaurants have never been better come to think of it the service I get from my local garage dealership has become spectacular …. all it seems clear to me from the rise of consumer power and social media. That’s business life in 2023. Non sensical or not  |
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Post by bricejchandler on Aug 30, 2023 8:01:29 GMT -6
timcampbell In the older thread from 8 years ago on GS, people did contact their dealers and ultimately Flea did respond in the thread, and said they'd update their website etc... Anyway, I agree that people should contact their dealer or Flea directly, but I also don't see why one can't talk about their experience on a forum. One thing I disagree with here is when you say that manufacturers need to be more vigilant about what their dealers promise, If a manufacturer changes part of their design I find it's 100% their responsibility to inform dealers, to update their blurb. You can't expect Vintage King to check every other month with a brand if something has changed, or to check every single mic to see what tube is in it. In the Flea or no to flea thread, the response from Vintage King was that they had no idea what tube was in the mic and were just as surprised that it was a Grosser Fet as the poster. Anyway that thread went to hell too and was heavily moderated too with Plush ranting against anybody saying a bad word about Flea so when I saw the new GS thread I felt like it was deja vu. , yip, the "Just bought a Flea" thread is the one i checked out too, but if you look at the post by "Sound of Pirates" (if it's his post you're referring to) it's from 29 January 2023. The post directly above it is from 2020. Regarding onus on the manufacturer to inform their dealers, I agree. However, it is not beyond feasible that the dealers (who are dealing in hundreds of products, compared to the manufacturers who are only dealing in their own) are the ones to slip up, forget that they've been informed, had a change of staff since being informed, or just never gotten around to updating the website. The one that really stood out to me was the Flea or not to Flea thread 7 years ago. I remember I'd just sold my Wunder CM7 a couple months before and I was looking at alternatives and I read the thread pretty much live because the FLea was one of the mics I was looking into, and that one was quite moderated because it turned ugly pretty fast. And there were a couple other threads during those couple of years that I remember where something about not getting the right tube was mentioned in passing. I was just mentioning these threads because a bunch of people were saying, this has never happened ( some of them being already active in the older thread that they obviously forgot about in the meantime ) and I'm like, I have a good memory and well I remember very vividly reading about this exact same problem a LONG time ago and back then it kind of put me off because it felt a bit negligent on the manufacturer's part, even though they did end up making it right and sending the tubes people wanted. So you'd think Flea, having already gone through this almost 10 years ago would be more cautious with all this tube stuff. |
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Post by ericn on Aug 30, 2023 8:57:25 GMT -6
Brice that still doesn't prove that FLEA didn't tell them, just that they were unaware. I just spoke to KMR in London today about their description on their webpage. Their text is not copy and pasted from FLEA but paraphrased by them in their own incorrect text. They asked me to please email them with the correct info because they couldn't even be bothered with checking the text on FLEA's homepage themselves.
I agree about discussing it on a forum, I just don't agree with complaining if you haven't even determined who is guilty or given anyone a chance to rectify it. I think someone owes Paul a GE 6072 tube, I just believe it is KMR and they should be given the chance to make good.
I had conversations last night with some people involved with this at some very large dealers and manufacturers. First I’m going to put my old gearpimp hat on. Quit the blame game, everybody here screwed up, Paul yeah you should have contacted your dealer, KMR should have corrected text and as much as everyone hates those follow u calls from your dealer. This is exhibit A in defense of them and the defense rests. Flea has to know of these issues and followed up and they should make a point of constantly reviewing the text it dealers post. It’s their brand to protect. If Paulwas my customer I would no about this, even if I wasn’t allowed to post on forums I sure as hell would have been following my clients. Yeah the dealers got it wrong on the web, you think the person who is posting this stuff knows mics? Umm it’s an entry level position, we had over 500 vendors and about 500,000 SKUs, I didn’t know everything about everything and yes the owner once stated I knew more about what we did than anyone in the building. The threads on GS and this one should have been brought to the attention of both KMR and Flea. Tim I get that your capsule is your baby and you are proud of it but before we got to this point you should have reached out to KMR and Flea and have them privately put out this fire. That’s their job! Tim in many ways I respect the way you understand a core concept that many suppliers don’t: my customers customer is my customer, but the trick is to get everyone involved to address it behind the scenes as soon as possible not argue on a public forum. My defense of this position is simple: how many pages on various forums and nobody has accomplished anything other than making themselves look bad in the eyes of somebody and believe non of the main players in this one look good. |
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Post by paulcheeba on Aug 30, 2023 9:03:42 GMT -6
When I complain about products or services I have received that have not to been to my personal standards - I don't expect to provide photographic evidence at the first instance because I don't appreciate the inference I am a liar and the all the companies I've dealt over the decades must get that, because I've never been asked! Not until the point they are ready to offer a remedy, at which point a receipt or photograph is a perfectly reasonable exchange. It used to be called .... "the customer is always right" (within the limits of the law) Now with social media the customer isn't just always right - they're also always LOUD! Restaurants and hotels have never been better IME This is absolutely nonsensical. No business would survive if they took every claim at face value. If you had a problem with your car and went to the dealer and said "it pulls to the left.", you can be damn sure they'll take it for a test drive before pulling anything apart. It would be wasted resources and wasted time to commence on any remediation without first testing for the problem. (i.e. finding evidence of a fault) In the case of this discussion, here and on GS, people are remote, and they likely have bought product remotely. The request for photographic evidence of the claim is well within the bounds of reason. And no, the customer is NOT always right. But, you are correct in saying that the customer is now always loud because they can be via social media. I don't know what has happened in the last 10 years, but it seems as if the request for evidence from someone making a claim is the equivalent of stealing their child. The term "unsubstantiated claim" exists for a reason. And in the courts, including the court of public opinion, there should be no issue presenting evidence when requested. timcampbell proved in the GS thread that the photo taken by Paul of a C12 capsule was not one of Tim's capsules. It's also been shown in this thread that FLEA's marketing blurb on their own website has been correct as far back as 2020. bricejchandler besides the current cluster#@$%@#$ on GS, the only other comments I could find re Flea and tube were from earlier this year. But thanks for pointing out that there was existing commentary. Hey since you've really been enjoying this thread here's a photo for you with a Flea 12, a CT12 Tim Campbell capsule I replaced with an OG AKG and the cheap Russian Tube. Sorry to interrupt the trash talk from the angry kids but here it is, it actually exists fellow technicians, I apologise for trying to warn you ![]()  ... ![]() |
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Post by paulcheeba on Aug 30, 2023 9:19:22 GMT -6
I have been so busy with OEM work that unfortunately I don't have as many private customers as I used to. To answer your question yes. I will gladly change the sound of any of my capsules to reflect a customers wishes. Over the last 20 years I have done this everytime someone asked. Can you get rid of that glassy top end that has always made my teeth hurt? AKG, Haun, and Beesneez don't have that quality. I just Don't understand it. IT'S NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK. Yet you follow my posts turning everyone into a petty argument if your product is ever mentioned. I've spent my life living with negative criticism and you get over it, it makes no odds. If your selling bucketloads as you are then get over it. |
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Post by timcampbell on Aug 30, 2023 9:34:13 GMT -6
Paul as in your quote from me says if you don't like the top end send it to me and I'll make it to your liking You have me in writing. I comment on posts that deal directly with my work. If you don't like me commenting on your posts please leave me out of the conversation. You have personally addressed me, as now, and yet you believe I have no right to comment. You have mentioned often that I follow you on forums but the only forum I have followed you on is groupdiy when your posts about me got to be too much. Don't be so paranoid. Lots of people from multiple forums comment on your posts. I am simply one of them. This thread is interesting and worth talking about and I want to contribute. I love this forum and have been a member since I believe 2014 |
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Post by Ward on Aug 30, 2023 9:45:17 GMT -6
REALLY GLAD TO SEE THESE LAST TWO POSTS!
A customer has the right to complain, be demanding and make suggestions.
A builder has the right to explain, be accommodating and tell the customer he makes A but not B, and A will not sound or perform like B.
That's just good business on bother ends. That's been my philosophy whether in this racket, building relationships between boutique builders and buyers, or in larger industry from steel to aviation to heavy equipment. Always good to mediate. In Spanish, business is called 'Negotiations'. For a reason.
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Post by paulcheeba on Aug 30, 2023 10:20:37 GMT -6
Paul as in your quote from me says if you don't like the top end send it to me and I'll make it to your liking You have me in writing. I comment on posts that deal directly with my work. If you don't like me commenting on your posts please leave me out of the conversation. You have personally addressed me, as now, and yet you believe I have no right to comment. You have mentioned often that I follow you on forums but the only forum I have followed you on is groupdiy when your posts about me got to be too much. Don't be so paranoid. Lots of people from multiple forums comment on your posts. I am simply one of them. This thread is interesting and worth talking about and I want to contribute. I love this forum and have been a member since I believe 2014 That simply isn't true Tim. I got 2 alerts within minutes that you were following me on here and group DIY. It's not Paranoia it's just weird. Regarding the capsule I don't believe it's possible. I've never heard any evidence to the contrary. Show me a raw recording with a smooth top end and I'll change my mind. I'm quite flexible. Anyway these threads aren't about you, they are about the fact that Flea are willy nilly with their tubes. They have a responsibility to stay on top of their game they are lots of peoples dream mics and they're not cheap. They are now getting beaten by lots of international companies who have taken over sonically and physically in all different price ranges. Ivan is a nice guy but they are always so busy it seems to take forever. Sui City is on here panicking like crazy because of this issue. Why not get a guarantee Sui that you will get an EF12, they sound great. The EF14 might have more low end but my 47's have plenty. Where are you buying it from? What are you expecting? Have you done your homework or were you hoping to piggyback on the forums collective experience? You were so keen for a photo of a different mic and for me to post here, are you happy now? I have addressed my feelings with KMR but like most pro audio dealers they can be quite casual about things. They do take care of me normally though and I'm sure these threads have cheered them up ;-) so we'll see...... |
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Post by timcampbell on Aug 30, 2023 10:29:10 GMT -6
"Regarding the capsule I don't believe it's possible." Paul really you cannot resist addressing me personally.I realize that you are not technically aware of the mechanics that make this possible.The great thing is that you can easily sell the capsule for more than I charge for it. They pop up every now and then on reverb, etc in the 500 dollar range and sell pretty quickly. |
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