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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 21, 2023 13:25:09 GMT -6
purely hypothetically, with no other information -- if you had to pick between a diode bridge and FET compressor for a channel dynamics section on a console, what would you choose? assume (hypothetically) they both have the same makeup gain amplifier, so we're only talking about the compression block itself.
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 21, 2023 13:52:16 GMT -6
If it’s desk channel strip compression, the same on every channel then I’d vote for VCA like the compressor in the Neve 88RS.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2023 14:21:52 GMT -6
purely hypothetically, with no other information -- if you had to pick between a diode bridge and FET compressor for a channel dynamics section on a console, what would you choose? assume (hypothetically) they both have the same makeup gain amplifier, so we're only talking about the compression block itself. What can you get more easily? What transfer curve do you want?Diodes are pretty consistent now. JFETs harder to match from my limited experience with stereo fet comps. |
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Post by robo on Aug 21, 2023 14:23:31 GMT -6
Between those choices I’d lean towards fet compression. Hopefully with a soft knee setting.
I agree that clean VCA compression is what I’d choose as a channel comp on a console. Anyone who can afford a console is going to have their favorite character comps to patch in on select tracks.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 21, 2023 14:28:57 GMT -6
Of the 2 FET, but like others have said overall I would probably prefer VCA if I had to have the same on every channel.
Just to totally upset things my dream console would have a 500 slot on every channel for dynamics so we wouldn’t have to have this conversation🥸
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Post by drumsound on Aug 21, 2023 14:30:49 GMT -6
I'd want a FET on a channel over a diode bridge. And I really like diode bridge compression. I just think the FET is going to have more broad usage and also dials in a bit quicker/easier. On a console, you might have a whole band running through it, gtrs, keys, bass, full drumset, and vocals. You want to move fast and feel confident. I'm imagining working on basic tracks, everything running through the console, simply pop a button to see if you want some compression.
If possible I'd also like an LED gain reduction section. A row of LEDs where the amount of compression starts at the top and the action moves toward the operator.
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Post by drumsound on Aug 21, 2023 14:32:24 GMT -6
Of the 2 FET, but like others have said overall I would probably prefer VCA if I had to have the same on every channel. Just to totally upset things my dream console would have a 500 slot on every channel for dynamics so we wouldn’t have to have this conversation🥸 In that scenario, would you then patch mic inputs around to different channels to match the compressors installed? |
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Post by hadaja on Aug 21, 2023 14:48:18 GMT -6
100% fet over diode.
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Post by ericn on Aug 21, 2023 14:54:34 GMT -6
Of the 2 FET, but like others have said overall I would probably prefer VCA if I had to have the same on every channel. Just to totally upset things my dream console would have a 500 slot on every channel for dynamics so we wouldn’t have to have this conversation🥸 In that scenario, would you then patch mic inputs around to different channels to match the compressors installed? Yes because at this point I would probably go without pre’s mounted in the console and just go outboard 😁 Now let’s push your metering up a notch and just copy the DBX 160a/x/XT ! To this day most useful quick glance metering on a comp! |
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Post by drumsound on Aug 21, 2023 14:56:39 GMT -6
In that scenario, would you then patch mic inputs around to different channels to match the compressors installed? Yes because at this point I would probably go without pre’s mounted in the console and just go outboard 😁 Now let’s push your metering up a notch and just copy the DBX 160a/x/XT ! To this day most useful quick glance metering on a comp! I'm totally down with that metering option! I think I'd love a console with mic pres, compressors and no EQ, but a good aux send section for headphone mix. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 21, 2023 15:01:09 GMT -6
Anyone who can afford a console is going to have their favorite character comps to patch in on select tracks. I agree, in general. But here’s the rebuttal that comes into my mind…Most people are recording to DAW, and will be doing at least some processing the daw. You want transparent compression, there you go. My idea at least is that everything that goes into the design has to pull its weight - no fat, every single feature needs to be great. All killer no filler. I can’t manage to get excited about a bunch of transparent VCA compressors and put those in the “killer” column. But I have been wrong before. 😂 |
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Post by hadaja on Aug 21, 2023 15:02:32 GMT -6
Yes because at this point I would probably go without pre’s mounted in the console and just go outboard 😁 Now let’s push your metering up a notch and just copy the DBX 160a/x/XT ! To this day most useful quick glance metering on a comp! I'm totally down with that metering option! I think I'd love a console with mic pres, compressors and no EQ, but a good aux send section for headphone mix. Maybe have utility style eq with that ability to be post/pre button in and after compressor. |
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Post by drumsound on Aug 21, 2023 15:06:23 GMT -6
I'm totally down with that metering option! I think I'd love a console with mic pres, compressors and no EQ, but a good aux send section for headphone mix. Maybe have utility style eq with that ability to be post/pre button in and after compressor. That's a cool idea. |
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Post by ericn on Aug 21, 2023 15:30:45 GMT -6
Yes because at this point I would probably go without pre’s mounted in the console and just go outboard 😁 Now let’s push your metering up a notch and just copy the DBX 160a/x/XT ! To this day most useful quick glance metering on a comp! I'm totally down with that metering option! I think I'd love a console with mic pres, compressors and no EQ, but a good aux send section for headphone mix. I could live without traditional EQ, but I would want filters, varible, high pass, low pass and all pass for phase alignment. |
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Post by Ward on Aug 21, 2023 15:41:49 GMT -6
FET all the way, without hesitation. Why? Because when you're tracking, overload limiting is the #1 reason in the DAW age. a FET is just the best there is at that.
And besides, VCA comp/limiting sucks, sound-wise and a Bridge Diode is more of a character/crush'em type.
As for EQ? I love EQ. Your LH95 with an added 350hz point would be AMAZING!
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 21, 2023 15:46:42 GMT -6
Anyone who can afford a console is going to have their favorite character comps to patch in on select tracks. I agree, in general. But here’s the rebuttal that comes into my mind…Most people are recording to DAW, and will be doing at least some processing the daw. You want transparent compression, there you go. My idea at least is that everything that goes into the design has to pull its weight - no fat, every single feature needs to be great. All killer no filler. I can’t manage to get excited about a bunch of transparent VCA compressors and put those in the “killer” column. But I have been wrong before. 😂 Whatever is used in the channel comps on the ssl k series, duality, aws etc - those things slap and are fantastic on drums. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2023 19:04:42 GMT -6
... whichever could be faster - so probably fet. But as someone else mentioned, matching the fet transistors (hfe) can be harder.
That said, I don't think all fets or diode bridge comps sound/respond the same so it really depends. Take vca for example. SSL buss comp and distressor are very different but both vca. Drawmer 1968 and 1176 both fet and are very different. Etc etc. Hard to say for sure which just speculating.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2023 21:29:51 GMT -6
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 22, 2023 0:46:40 GMT -6
Anyone who can afford a console is going to have their favorite character comps to patch in on select tracks. I agree, in general. But here’s the rebuttal that comes into my mind…Most people are recording to DAW, and will be doing at least some processing the daw. You want transparent compression, there you go. My idea at least is that everything that goes into the design has to pull its weight - no fat, every single feature needs to be great. All killer no filler. I can’t manage to get excited about a bunch of transparent VCA compressors and put those in the “killer” column. But I have been wrong before. 😂 Mmmh …. not sure I can agree with the idea a desk should be all “killer no filler” A desk to mix what on? A desk that suits only one genre? The VCA compressor in the Neve 88RS LFC is imho a fantastic sounding compressor and I’m not sure any “clean” plugin compressors in my DAW come even close the the musical analogue vibe of that particular beautifully designed channel strip dynamic section. I pick the 88RS as it embodies the concept of a great sounding desk that can mix from jazz to classical to rock with the addition of a few choice pieces of character outboard EQ and compression like 76’s, vari mu, tube EQ etc. An organic slightly textured blank canvas and a palette of colours. That’s been the workflow of a LFC and a couple of racks for a million records and for me it works. Small problem of $250,000 to buy the desk! Oh and a room to put it in and paying the power bill  Of course now a days, nobody wants a FLC and it’s all DAW and hybrid or mixing ITB so my views have vanished like the dinosaurs therefore you can probably safely ignore me! |
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Post by christophert on Aug 22, 2023 1:23:53 GMT -6
As long as it is transparent, but able to be grabby if needed - otherwise I'd rather not have it.
I can use plenty of other hardware and software for grit and color.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2023 1:36:43 GMT -6
Of the 2 FET, but like others have said overall I would probably prefer VCA if I had to have the same on every channel. Just to totally upset things my dream console would have a 500 slot on every channel for dynamics so we wouldn’t have to have this conversation🥸 I was just thinking about something similar but in a compact console, the SSL B6 has 4 main "channel strips" which are only for tracking really, it also has a stereo or mono (collapsable) EQ on channels 5 - 12 with line in's (I wish they had insert loops) but there are balanced insert loops on 1-4 and the master..
Now, I'm curious because the IAA 622 for example is pretty much the exact same as a 500 series SSL B6 channel (the 622 lacks DI but gains transformers and a proper inductor EQ & for me sound is more important). See where I'm going with this? The issue is finding a 500 slot base, the only real desk option I have is the looptrotter but that is very expensive for what's essentially a 500 slot chassis with a master section and a few faders. You could do something similar with a rack of Cranborne's and a Presonus faderport for a fraction of the price and that has AD/DA as well. I mean for the cost of the desk alone you could buy 2X Cranborne chassis & 16 IAA 622's.. Hmm.
Although for my purposes that is OTT, I never track more than two things at a time and whilst it's nice to have options I'd never need more than 4 channels for tracking. When it comes to EQ I don't see the point of a 4 band parametric anymore, in a hybrid setup this is one area where I'll conceed that plugins do a far better job (even in terms of flexbility). I used the three band inductor on the Shelford to fix critical mic issues plus sweeten the sound and that IMO is what you want on a hybrid desk, a wider Q sweet EQ to add a bit of magic.
In short I never use the EQ's on the SSL BS, neither do I use the one knob compressors. Great when you're in a pinch live but besides from the stereo master bus VCA on the BS every other one knob compressor I've come across have been a bit of a gimmick TBH, including the one's on the SSL's 1-4 channel. Matt might change my mind on this with the 622. I like the Big Six but it could be better and I'm sure SSL could make it a lot better but due to cost it would then fall outside of the larger project studio market and eat into upper sales so they'll never do it. It is a great hybrid studio routing matrix though and at $3K it doesn't break the bank, however to get something of higher quality how much would we be talking? $6K? Which is double the price, much more and like a few manufacturers found out the takers drop off like nothing.
If something becomes available one day I'll probably pick it up, for now I just use the BS as a routing matrix with a couple of 500 chassis to bypass all the stuff I'm not interested in. Not a neat & tidy solution but it works..
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2023 5:24:38 GMT -6
Anyone who can afford a console is going to have their favorite character comps to patch in on select tracks. I agree, in general. But here’s the rebuttal that comes into my mind…Most people are recording to DAW, and will be doing at least some processing the daw. You want transparent compression, there you go. My idea at least is that everything that goes into the design has to pull its weight - no fat, every single feature needs to be great. All killer no filler. I can’t manage to get excited about a bunch of transparent VCA compressors and put those in the “killer” column. But I have been wrong before. 😂 I don’t want it colored, the artist doesn’t want it colored, I want it to sound done if it hits a console! Not well-done, overcooked, medium rare, or blue but done! Maximize the headroom of your analog to digital converters, which is never 24-bit (the maximum noise floor of Johnson noise for 1khz and it’s higher in the high frequencies) and unless you spent 3000-9000 dollars on 16-24 channels of Apogee, Burl, or Lynx probably do not sound that great even if they measure okay with a 1 khz sine wave so I don’t want to come out of the computer again with poor conversion or conversion that doesn’t sound cool 😎 A lot of other “pro” converters are worse than the 3000 that Tascam was selling a few years ago when they had the DA 3000 master recorder and converter and some cut down multichannel options. Good instruments, good micing, good pres, basic filters, a basic channel strip eq, and a two stage or two detector compressor can get it all done. if you could modify that two slope THAT compressor to have non-linear timing capacitor to not pump or distort bass notes too much, adjustable attack/release or dual time constants, adjustable limiter ratio above threshold and maybe compression ratio below threshold, threshold of onset of diode clipping (it’s very similar to old Drawmer limiter knob but rms detection i believe), you’d have a very powerful channel strip. The problem is idiots wouldn’t know how to use it and would squash everything. But that car audio compressor they build would be sick in the studio and that make a replacement 3 opamp analogue engine ic for the 4301 you could adapt. If I can’t get it done in the way in and pretty much mixed too, I want a clean path in to get it done itb because so much stuff that individuals and studios buy is not particularly functional and is just distorted or hyped gear today to attract customers. Yes many rack Mount compressors are worse and less useful than the few dollar that one knob rms squeezers seen in Tascam and Focusrite interfaces that will help to even out a performance as they play it and you can limit it itb. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2023 5:26:24 GMT -6
Of the 2 FET, but like others have said overall I would probably prefer VCA if I had to have the same on every channel. Just to totally upset things my dream console would have a 500 slot on every channel for dynamics so we wouldn’t have to have this conversation🥸 I was just thinking about something similar but in a compact console, the SSL B6 has 4 main "channel strips" which are only for tracking really, it also has a stereo or mono (collapsable) EQ on channels 5 - 12 with line in's (I wish they had insert loops) but there are balanced insert loops on 1-4 and the master..
Now, I'm curious because the IAA 622 for example is pretty much the exact same as a 500 series SSL B6 channel (the 622 lacks DI but gains transformers and a proper inductor EQ & for me sound is more important). See where I'm going with this? The issue is finding a 500 slot base, the only real desk option I have is the looptrotter but that is very expensive for what's essentially a 500 slot chassis with a master section and a few faders. You could do something similar with a rack of Cranborne's and a Presonus faderport for a fraction of the price and that has AD/DA as well. I mean for the cost of the desk alone you could buy 2X Cranborne chassis & 16 IAA 622's.. Hmm.
Although for my purposes that is OTT, I never track more than two things at a time and whilst it's nice to have options I'd never need more than 4 channels for tracking. When it comes to EQ I don't see the point of a 4 band parametric anymore, in a hybrid setup this is one area where I'll conceed that plugins do a far better job (even in terms of flexbility). I used the three band inductor on the Shelford to fix critical mic issues plus sweeten the sound and that IMO is what you want on a hybrid desk, a wider Q sweet EQ to add a bit of magic.
In short I never use the EQ's on the SSL BS, neither do I use the one knob compressors. Great when you're in a pinch live but besides from the stereo master bus VCA on the BS every other one knob compressor I've come across have been a bit of a gimmick TBH, including the one's on the SSL's 1-4 channel. Matt might change my mind on this with the 622. I like the Big Six but it could be better and I'm sure SSL could make it a lot better but due to cost it would then fall outside of the larger project studio market and eat into upper sales so they'll never do it. It is a great hybrid studio routing matrix though and at $3K it doesn't break the bank, however to get something of higher quality how much would we be talking? $6K? Which is double the price, much more and like a few manufacturers found out the takers drop off like nothing.
If something becomes available one day I'll probably pick it up, for now I just use the BS as a routing matrix with a couple of 500 chassis to bypass all the stuff I'm not interested in. Not a neat & tidy solution but it works..
SSL cheaped the hell out of their 500 series dynamics. No NE5532 or NE5534 anymore. It’s standard JRC and NJM prosumer opamps like other Asian electronics but the stuff I’ve seen doesn’t use too many fake capacitors compared to Behringer, Focusrite, Presonus, and RME. Also since rms detectors. Simply not fast enough at 1 ms attack to get it fully done and limit and slow attack is thwack kung fu drums. Many drums ruined by ssl channel comps. Hitting peak in the digital ssl duende or native versions makes it sound like breaking Bakelite too. The rms is thereto smooth the response and that defeats the smoothing and makes it more like some cheap vca prosumer garbage response. Not fast enough to limit artifacts or even like a snare at 1 ms attack rms even if it can reduce the peak a little bit and 1 ms rms is often too fast or 3 ms for 20 db or whateve the ssl fast attack is specced at for the channel comp. It’s somehow worse than a dbx 160 if you need to hit slow but fast avoids the stupid transients but is too aggressive to level. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2023 8:06:29 GMT -6
SSL cheaped the hell out of their 500 series dynamics. No NE5532 or NE5534 anymore. It’s standard JRC and NJM prosumer opamps like other Asian electronics but the stuff I’ve seen doesn’t use too many fake capacitors compared to Behringer, Focusrite, Presonus, and RME. Also since rms detectors. Simply not fast enough at 1 ms attack to get it fully done and limit and slow attack is thwack kung fu drums. Many drums ruined by ssl channel comps. Hitting peak in the digital ssl duende or native versions makes it sound like breaking Bakelite too. The rms is thereto smooth the response and that defeats the smoothing and makes it more like some cheap vca prosumer garbage response. Not fast enough to limit artifacts or even like a snare at 1 ms attack rms even if it can reduce the peak a little bit and 1 ms rms is often too fast or 3 ms for 20 db or whateve the ssl fast attack is specced at for the channel comp. It’s somehow worse than a dbx 160 if you need to hit slow but fast avoids the stupid transients but is too aggressive to level. Yep, the SSL channel compressors on the strips or BS are like a dull knob. They're not exactly expensive though in comparison to a proper outboard VCA.. |
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Post by smashlord on Aug 22, 2023 9:00:07 GMT -6
Fet over diode bridge, no question. Put a Compex in every channel strip....
maybe I need a Helios?
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