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Post by Ward on Aug 22, 2023 9:04:29 GMT -6
]SSL cheaped the hell out of their 500 series dynamics. No NE5532 or NE5534 anymore. It’s standard JRC and NJM prosumer opamps like other Asian electronics but the stuff I’ve seen doesn’t use too many fake capacitors compared to Behringer, Focusrite, Presonus, and RME. Also since rms detectors. Simply not fast enough at 1 ms attack to get it fully done and limit and slow attack is thwack kung fu drums. Many drums ruined by ssl channel comps. Hitting peak in the digital ssl duende or native versions makes it sound like breaking Bakelite too. The rms is thereto smooth the response and that defeats the smoothing and makes it more like some cheap vca prosumer garbage response. Not fast enough to limit artifacts or even like a snare at 1 ms attack rms even if it can reduce the peak a little bit and 1 ms rms is often too fast or 3 ms for 20 db or whateve the ssl fast attack is specced at for the channel comp. It’s somehow worse than a dbx 160 if you need to hit slow but fast avoids the stupid transients but is too aggressive to level. , tell matt@IAA about your other idea . . . he'd be crazy not to use it. It's genius. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 22, 2023 10:22:39 GMT -6
Killer means gotta have it, not that it has to have a huge distortion footprint. With hardware, everything has to be worth the squeeze. So features have to pull their weight. It’s more of how I approach design than a commentary on any particular sonic thing.
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 22, 2023 10:33:14 GMT -6
Fet over diode bridge, no question. Put a Compex in every channel strip.... maybe I need a Helios? This guy gets it, you spying on me or what? |
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Post by drumsound on Aug 22, 2023 11:16:12 GMT -6
Fet over diode bridge, no question. Put a Compex in every channel strip.... maybe I need a Helios? This guy gets it, you spying on me or what? I with you guys. I want a Helios wrap around sooooooo bad. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2023 13:38:00 GMT -6
Killer means gotta have it, not that it has to have a huge distortion footprint. With hardware, everything has to be worth the squeeze. So features have to pull their weight. It’s more of how I approach design than a commentary on any particular sonic thing. So that means if you want your console to be a front end for a daw to get shit done on the way in as it’s being played at a fraction of the speed of light, you need to make sure it gets really done. Otherwise it’s just faders and could be replaced by a rack of remote pres or remote converters connected to something cool. First of all you need a limiter to make sure you don’t overdrive the converter. Most people do not have 8-32 channels of apogee (soft limit), Lavry (soft saturation), prism (overkiller), or burl (transformers) conversion. They’re going to hook up your console with some avid mediocrity, something kinda lofi, or something that sounds good but not if you clip it with no method to prevent input overs. How do you prevent overs? Same way as digital samples. Modulators like compressors aren’t guaranteed even at infinite ratio. You need to clip the signal in the analog domain at a level to not have the ripple clip the converters. There are several options: a pair of zener diodes like Prism Overkiller XLR things they sell for almost 300 bucks a pop. There’s no reason you couldn’t make a box with 8 of them for that price! Or shove them on channels. Apogee soft limit type thing. This is like the Prism overkiller but more aggressive and fuzzier (-2 to -4) and the soft saturate and soft crush like old cassette deck limiters (Sony was half wave rectifier 😬 🕶 ) with clipped diodes on top of that! Make a box with 8 of them and shove em in your console. Fuzz stuff up! A cheapo cassette deck type limiter like old Sony or nakamichi could be amazing dirt. Sounds cool and not that bad. Sony used bjt. You can do it with opamps too. There are several threads about it. The hifi versions of these are the tab u373 and the dav limiters. See the brown book. A more hifi thing is to do it like the that notes or speaker protection limiters. Rms limiter + diode clipper for sharp peaks. That’s what Drawmer does. See the THAT design notes and tons of power amplifier circuit diagrams. That’s why I suggested modifying that crazy two slope that corp upward compressor and downward limiter design. Would be a crazy effect and have the diode clipper built in. 3 in 1 man but of course would cost more than building a cassette deck limiter in a console. More useful but not as cool 😎 You could also just built like a cheap job Fostex mn-50 clone man with the .5 ms attack, 6:1 “ratio”, adjustable input gain to increase / decrease the ratio, and variable release. Digital ignoramuses won’t be able to get working fast attacks in their daws so it could be useful for them and dirt for others but the cassette deck type limiters are even more dirt 💩 . Maybe improve with a non-linear release capacitor to not grit up bass notes? That or a one knob squeezed rms leveler would be cool. There are also analog automatic level control chips that could be cool. Then have an overkiller like diode clipper at the very top to not clip the converters. Dan. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 22, 2023 14:45:09 GMT -6
When I make a console for you Dan, I promise I will work on a 3:1 comp/limiter based on the THAT design notes.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2023 14:50:41 GMT -6
When I make a console for you Dan, I promise I will work on a 3:1 comp/limiter based on the THAT design notes. Not before you've made my Big Six replacement compact console, I'm actually super curious to see what something like that would cost (or if you'd even bother). I don't need AD/DA though. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 22, 2023 15:09:06 GMT -6
Good because I'm too dumb to figure AD/DA out  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2023 19:00:41 GMT -6
When I make a console for you Dan, I promise I will work on a 3:1 comp/limiter based on the THAT design notes. Hey Matt I've just always been fascinated by some of them and wondered why only the "one knob squeezer" one is common in some modern commercial products.
The cheap BJT and diode limiter ideas are just cheap but genuinely useful part ideas you could use on a channel strip headed straight into a multichannel converter. The two diode clipper limiters work on sharp transients and will save the sound of recordings to Prism and Apogee converters. They would be useful after a normal dynamics section and eq. Of course now when people clip masters to +4 dbfs that defeats any point of not clipping on the way in. The cassette deck limiter is just a stunt idea that would be pretty cool but I'm not sure how well on a console or channel strip that's meant to be very clean.
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 22, 2023 19:49:44 GMT -6
No idea but some of the schematics in those design notes are incomplete / don’t work, so that may be part of it.
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Post by Ward on Aug 23, 2023 9:05:57 GMT -6
No idea but some of the schematics in those design notes are incomplete / don’t work, so that may be part of it. Too bad, because they worked in the real world back in the day. Tips tricks and secrets get lost, I reckon. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 23, 2023 10:06:15 GMT -6
Of course now a days, nobody wants a FLC and it’s all DAW and hybrid or mixing ITB so my views have vanished like the dinosaurs therefore you can probably safely ignore me! Me for one - I will not ignore you!!!!! The 88RS is a beast and would be my console if (like you) I had the space, money, etc.. Wonderful console. IMO, really the best console made of the last 30 or so years. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 23, 2023 10:10:47 GMT -6
Killer means gotta have it, not that it has to have a huge distortion footprint. With hardware, everything has to be worth the squeeze. So features have to pull their weight. It’s more of how I approach design than a commentary on any particular sonic thing. Man...I gotta get me some IAA stuff soon!! Sad that all of my 8 500 racks are completely full....  |
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Post by drbill on Aug 23, 2023 10:15:33 GMT -6
First of all you need a limiter to make sure you don’t overdrive the converter. Most people do not have 8-32 channels of apogee (soft limit), Lavry (soft saturation), prism (overkiller), or burl (transformers) conversion. They’re going to hook up your console with some avid mediocrity, something kinda lofi, or something that sounds good but not if you clip it with no method to prevent input overs. How do you prevent overs? Same way as digital samples. Modulators like compressors aren’t guaranteed even at infinite ratio. You need to clip the signal in the analog domain at a level to not have the ripple clip the converters. How to prevent overs? How about proper levels and/or good engineering? Or is that too much to ask for in 2023?  There is simply no reason to push things when you are tracking. 24 bit fixed that. Tracking hot is a leftover remnant from analog tape.... I don't need limiters on my way in. If I need compression, I'm using it to shape the sound to how I like it - not to save my a$$. And as to Matt's original question....FET. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2023 11:55:10 GMT -6
First of all you need a limiter to make sure you don’t overdrive the converter. Most people do not have 8-32 channels of apogee (soft limit), Lavry (soft saturation), prism (overkiller), or burl (transformers) conversion. They’re going to hook up your console with some avid mediocrity, something kinda lofi, or something that sounds good but not if you clip it with no method to prevent input overs. How do you prevent overs? Same way as digital samples. Modulators like compressors aren’t guaranteed even at infinite ratio. You need to clip the signal in the analog domain at a level to not have the ripple clip the converters. How to prevent overs? How about proper levels and/or good engineering? Or is that too much to ask for in 2023? There is simply no reason to push things when you are tracking. 24 bit fixed that. Tracking hot is a leftover remnant from analog tape.... I don't need limiters on my way in. If I need compression, I'm using it to shape the sound to how I like it - not to save my a$$. And as to Matt's original question....FET. I still get digitally clipped recordings all the time. The typical multichannel converter isn’t that good and is barely getting any better with time. 24-bit is just the theoretical noise floor of the pcm data. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 23, 2023 12:13:14 GMT -6
How to prevent overs? How about proper levels and/or good engineering? Or is that too much to ask for in 2023? There is simply no reason to push things when you are tracking. 24 bit fixed that. Tracking hot is a leftover remnant from analog tape.... I don't need limiters on my way in. If I need compression, I'm using it to shape the sound to how I like it - not to save my a$$. And as to Matt's original question....FET. I still get digitally clipped recordings all the time. The typical multichannel converter isn’t that good and is barely getting any better with time. 24-bit is just the theoretical noise floor of the pcm data. Understood. Are you saying that if you track with lower levels so that you don't clip, the noise floor is too high? |
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Post by jaba on Aug 23, 2023 12:46:13 GMT -6
How to prevent overs? How about proper levels and/or good engineering? Or is that too much to ask for in 2023? There is simply no reason to push things when you are tracking. 24 bit fixed that. Tracking hot is a leftover remnant from analog tape.... I don't need limiters on my way in. If I need compression, I'm using it to shape the sound to how I like it - not to save my a$$. And as to Matt's original question....FET. I still get digitally clipped recordings all the time. The typical multichannel converter isn’t that good and is barely getting any better with time. 24-bit is just the theoretical noise floor of the pcm data. Same here, but if you're tracking with a quality console, I pray you know how to gain stage into converters... Now if the same limiters could just as easily used as effects that'd be cool as long there was still a nice compressor in the channel. I'd vote FET as well. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2023 13:59:55 GMT -6
I still get digitally clipped recordings all the time. The typical multichannel converter isn’t that good and is barely getting any better with time. 24-bit is just the theoretical noise floor of the pcm data. Understood. Are you saying that if you track with lower levels so that you don't clip, the noise floor is too high? Yes especially with stuff besides the mic and pre in the signal path or anything pushed for a sound to typical converters. I still gate and sometimes expand things. |
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Post by ericn on Aug 23, 2023 14:03:40 GMT -6
First of all you need a limiter to make sure you don’t overdrive the converter. Most people do not have 8-32 channels of apogee (soft limit), Lavry (soft saturation), prism (overkiller), or burl (transformers) conversion. They’re going to hook up your console with some avid mediocrity, something kinda lofi, or something that sounds good but not if you clip it with no method to prevent input overs. How do you prevent overs? Same way as digital samples. Modulators like compressors aren’t guaranteed even at infinite ratio. You need to clip the signal in the analog domain at a level to not have the ripple clip the converters. How to prevent overs? How about proper levels and/or good engineering? Or is that too much to ask for in 2023? There is simply no reason to push things when you are tracking. 24 bit fixed that. Tracking hot is a leftover remnant from analog tape.... I don't need limiters on my way in. If I need compression, I'm using it to shape the sound to how I like it - not to save my a$$. And as to Matt's original question....FET. If you have to deal with the general world of home engineers as a mix AE you find yourself putting a rack of 8 ch of Aphex dominators and renting it out😎 The other area where limiters during tracking can be a godsend is live remote work, funny how dominant Apogee once was in this area. I’ll also admit I wish every budget digital mixer had a simple analog limiter for those who don’t know how to gain stage. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2023 15:53:44 GMT -6
How to prevent overs? How about proper levels and/or good engineering? Or is that too much to ask for in 2023? There is simply no reason to push things when you are tracking. 24 bit fixed that. Tracking hot is a leftover remnant from analog tape.... I don't need limiters on my way in. If I need compression, I'm using it to shape the sound to how I like it - not to save my a$$. Good for you but as a single tracker a decent comp in front has saved my bacon on multiple occasions. I'm not ignorant to the -18dB target but in a lot of cases it means crap and sorry but I like a bit of proper dynamics in a song also some deliver it to quite a wide range. I don't see what's wrong with it besides opinion so if it saves my ass I'm thankful for it even in 2023.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2023 16:12:25 GMT -6
How to prevent overs? How about proper levels and/or good engineering? Or is that too much to ask for in 2023? There is simply no reason to push things when you are tracking. 24 bit fixed that. Tracking hot is a leftover remnant from analog tape.... I don't need limiters on my way in. If I need compression, I'm using it to shape the sound to how I like it - not to save my a$$. And as to Matt's original question....FET. If you have to deal with the general world of home engineers as a mix AE you find yourself putting a rack of 8 ch of Aphex dominators and renting it out😎 The other area where limiters during tracking can be a godsend is live remote work, funny how dominant Apogee once was in this area. I’ll also admit I wish every budget digital mixer had a simple analog limiter for those who don’t know how to gain stage. I would kill for 8 channels of dual diode passive limiters in One half rack with trs. You could even do 1/3rd ru like fmr and little labs with db 25 to get 24 limiters in 1 rack for large sessions but that would need a patchbay and not be as convenient as 8 xlrs in 1 ru or even half the depth Alesis 3630 style. Make ‘em 8 channels a full rack and you could have the cheap cassette deck or speaker protection type limiters for stupid vibe but of course more $$ in parts for the bjts or chips instead of just 16 zener diodes and some resistors. Rip Aphex and Nobody wants to pay for apogee now. |
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Post by ericn on Aug 23, 2023 16:17:02 GMT -6
If you have to deal with the general world of home engineers as a mix AE you find yourself putting a rack of 8 ch of Aphex dominators and renting it out😎 The other area where limiters during tracking can be a godsend is live remote work, funny how dominant Apogee once was in this area. I’ll also admit I wish every budget digital mixer had a simple analog limiter for those who don’t know how to gain stage. I would kill for 8 channels of dual diode passive limiters in One half rack with trs. You could even do 1/3rd ru like fmr and little labs with db 25 to get 24 limiters in 1 rack for large sessions but that would need a patchbay and not be as convenient as 8 xlrs in 1 ru or even half the depth Alesis 3630 style. Make ‘em 8 channels a full rack and you could have the cheap cassette deck or speaker protection type limiters for stupid vibe but of course more $$ in parts for the bjts or chips instead of just 16 zener diodes and some resistors. Rip Aphex and Nobody wants to pay for apogee now. Remember the Apogee’s in the barrel connectors? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2023 16:35:25 GMT -6
I would kill for 8 channels of dual diode passive limiters in One half rack with trs. You could even do 1/3rd ru like fmr and little labs with db 25 to get 24 limiters in 1 rack for large sessions but that would need a patchbay and not be as convenient as 8 xlrs in 1 ru or even half the depth Alesis 3630 style. Make ‘em 8 channels a full rack and you could have the cheap cassette deck or speaker protection type limiters for stupid vibe but of course more $$ in parts for the bjts or chips instead of just 16 zener diodes and some resistors. Rip Aphex and Nobody wants to pay for apogee now. Remember the Apogee’s in the barrel connectors? You mean the Prism over killer? They still make them. They’re just 105 GBP a channel! beta.prismsound.com/products/over-killer/ |
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Post by drbill on Aug 23, 2023 16:42:53 GMT -6
In the recording I've done, I just don't find that lowering levels enough to not get overs has raised the noise floor enough to be a problem. Other analog elements like mic noise, preamp noise, etc. far overshadow the noise levels of 24 bit. I guess YMMV comes into play
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Post by drbill on Aug 23, 2023 16:57:19 GMT -6
How to prevent overs? How about proper levels and/or good engineering? Or is that too much to ask for in 2023? There is simply no reason to push things when you are tracking. 24 bit fixed that. Tracking hot is a leftover remnant from analog tape.... I don't need limiters on my way in. If I need compression, I'm using it to shape the sound to how I like it - not to save my a$$. Good for you but as a single tracker a decent comp in front has saved my bacon on multiple occasions. I'm not ignorant to the -18dB target but in a lot of cases it means crap and sorry but I like a bit of proper dynamics in a song also some deliver it to quite a wide range. I don't see what's wrong with it besides opinion so if it saves my ass I'm thankful for it even in 2023.
In fairness we were addressing limiters to safe limit so as not to clip digitally. Not really the same tools I use for compression - which I use everyday. And yeah, they have saved me too. But mostly cause I've been lazy or not paying good attention. There NOTHING wrong with either compression OR limiting. But I don't see either as a tool to not clip my converters. That comes from me not making the correct decision earlier upstream. That's my thoughts on it anyway. |
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