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Post by andersmv on Aug 18, 2023 17:22:15 GMT -6
I posted this over at "the other forum" as well. I know a lot of people have been waiting for more to drop on this mic. I've got the prototype here for the next week, so ask me anything! I'll be doing a separate video on the mic, as well as using it in a pretty massive (more than likely two part at this point) video for Coil Audio's preamps. Hopefully I'll have that all done and released in the next two weeks. Last NAMM, Vanguard showed off their new V24 stereo mic. It's a "spare no expense" clone/take on the vintage AKG C24, but with some added versatility and none of the drawbacks. BeesNeez CK12 capsule, Cinemag transformers, as well as a switch for voicing the top end of the mic to take it more in line with a 251 (independently switchable on both channels). When a company like Derek and Vanguard decide to go high end like that, it's definitely worth taking a solid look. It's been a massive undertaking to do these, all the way to having to figure out a new custom cable and connector with like 10 pins on it. Don't quote me on this, but I think Neutrics did it for them and they aren't even selling it yet. I'm sure Derek will come in here at some point and nerd out a bit with specifics. I'm the "real world" guinea pig for the next few days though, so let me know what you're interested in and I'll try to hold everyone over until the video's come out (I'm not skimping out on these either, there's going to be a lot of content and session files). Attachment Deleted |
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Post by ab101 on Aug 18, 2023 17:52:24 GMT -6
Very excited to hear about this mic. Apparently one tube. I never had, or even saw, a stereo tube mic.
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Post by drbill on Aug 18, 2023 18:06:03 GMT -6
Looking Forward to it!
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Post by mics on Aug 18, 2023 18:22:05 GMT -6
I too am looking forward to hearing it! It is a very well thought out design and I think it will please many!
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Post by Darren Boling on Aug 18, 2023 18:35:53 GMT -6
As a very happy v44s owner I'm also excited to hear this.
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 18, 2023 18:52:38 GMT -6
Hi all, Derek here. I’ve been sick all week and I currently need some Vitameatavegimen. I’ll pop in tomorrow AM and add some updates and details in my typical rambling, non-sequitur fashion.
In the meantime, feel free to ask me anything as well.
PS: first batch is 10 units only. Preorders open Monday. Trying to ship end of September. You can find some details and updates on our IG as well.
I’m gonna go sleep for 12 hours!
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Post by drbill on Aug 18, 2023 19:53:54 GMT -6
Feel better Derek!!
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Post by paulcheeba on Aug 18, 2023 23:29:38 GMT -6
Having had a C24 I’d like to hear this. I always found the original too bass light.
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Post by drumsound on Aug 19, 2023 2:54:21 GMT -6
Super cool. Does it also have the third output with the polarity reversed for M/S like the V44?
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 19, 2023 4:13:47 GMT -6
Super cool. Does it also have the third output with the polarity reversed for M/S like the V44? It does! Mic input and 3 outputs (bottom, top, and top o) are located on the PSU, along with the 2 pattern control switches with 9 selectable settings. |
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 19, 2023 4:16:58 GMT -6
Having had a C24 I’d like to hear this. I always found the original too bass light. The T14 transformer is arguably the culprit here, and AKG did a few things within the circuit to limit LF from getting to the T14. We changed a few component values that were limiting that LF, and a dedicated pair of cinemag CM-14113 handles the output on the V24. |
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Post by srb on Aug 19, 2023 6:24:03 GMT -6
Price on these?
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Post by bricejchandler on Aug 19, 2023 6:29:21 GMT -6
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Post by srb on Aug 19, 2023 6:31:47 GMT -6
Well, alright! This'll have to go on the "wait list". Love my Vanguard 44S. Reckon it'll have to do. I do love a fine tube mic, though. |
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Post by andersmv on Aug 19, 2023 7:39:09 GMT -6
Ya, there's a reason no one else is trying to do this. It's a design nightmare trying to get over hurdles as simple as a cable and connector. Full disclosure, I can't afford this either, which is frustrating because so far I really like it. I've stayed away from C12 style mics for a while, I had access to a vintage one and a few nice clones early on in my career. I was recording myself a lot trying to learn more, and that style never suited my voice well (It's my fault, I've got really sloppy singing technique and tend to be really sibilant).
It's been interesting coming back to the C12 world again after a long break. There's just SO much clarity in here that I've been missing from the other mics I have here. Even my Chandler TG mic, which is pretty full range, sounds kind of congested and phasey in the high mids compared to the V24. I'm also being reminded of how important it is to pair the right preamps with some of these vintage designs. I think that inherently, a lot of the design choices on mic's from that era were based off of the mediums everyone had to record to (tape, vinyl, tube preamps...). A lot of the things that bother me about the V24 right off the bat (from a personal preference standpoint) when it's plugged into my API preamps, completely go away when I run it through one of the Coil Audio preamps. Running this thing through the Coil's has kind of given me a change of perspective on the C12 world of mics.
Ya, it's a lot of money. I was initially really surprised and a little disappointed when Derek first told me he was doing this and the price point. After hearing him talk about the epic mess it was to do this though, I get it. He can talk more about it, but there's just no good way to do this as a normal product run at an affordable price. This is basically a "what if" passion project to do something that a lot of other companies have thought about doing and given up on pretty early in the process. The only other stereo tube mics I can think of that are newer are the Brauner (well over $10k) and the Manley Gold Reference (can't remember how much that one was). Neither is made anymore I believe. The only "somewhat" affordable option was the Telefunken AR-70, which I owned for a very brief period and sold when Derek told me he was going to do the stereo V44 mic. I'm not going to go into bash mode, but I did not like the Telefunken at all. It was also fixed pattern on one capsule, because of the 7 pin cable limitation...
All I'm saying is, this isn't some company randomly throwing together some parts and doing a money grab. If you want a C24 clone, it ain't going to be cheap. Not to mention you basically have a switchable 251 voicing on each channel too.
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Post by paulcheeba on Aug 19, 2023 7:42:04 GMT -6
$8? That is nuts. What makes it worth that much? |
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Post by drumsound on Aug 19, 2023 9:27:14 GMT -6
$8? That is nuts. What makes it worth that much? If you don't think $6K for Heiserman or Upton 251s is nuts, $8k for this doesn't seem nearly out of line. (unless you mean you expected it to be more expensive) |
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Post by andersmv on Aug 19, 2023 9:35:21 GMT -6
$8? That is nuts. What makes it worth that much? Why are any of the other nice C12 clones around the $4k-$5K mark? Upton, Flea, Telefunken is charging almost $9k for a single C12. It's 2 mics for around $4k each, it's not cheap but it's not crazy by any stretch all things considered. This is also coming from the guy who can't afford anything like this, so take my opinion with a grain of salt  . I'm just giving this thing a fair shakedown and having some fun. It sounds just as good as any other C12 I've come across, and they didn't skimp on the parts list. It's all top shelf. If you want to argue that the Uptons, Fleas and Telefunkens of the market are overpriced as well, I'll agree with you there! |
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Post by Ward on Aug 19, 2023 9:42:25 GMT -6
Ya, there's a reason no one else is trying to do this. It's a design nightmare trying to get over hurdles as simple as a cable and connector. Full disclosure, I can't afford this either, which is frustrating because so far I really like it. I've stayed away from C12 style mics for a while, I had access to a vintage one and a few nice clones early on in my career. I was recording myself a lot trying to learn more, and that style never suited my voice well (It's my fault, I've got really sloppy singing technique and tend to be really sibilant). It's been interesting coming back to the C12 world again after a long break. There's just SO much clarity in here that I've been missing from the other mics I have here. Even my Chandler TG mic, which is pretty full range, sounds kind of congested and phasey in the high mids compared to the V24. I'm also being reminded of how important it is to pair the right preamps with some of these vintage designs. I think that inherently, a lot of the design choices on mic's from that era were based off of the mediums everyone had to record to (tape, vinyl, tube preamps...). A lot of the things that bother me about the V24 right off the bat (from a personal preference standpoint) when it's plugged into my API preamps, completely go away when I run it through one of the Coil Audio preamps. Running this thing through the Coil's has kind of given me a change of perspective on the C12 world of mics. Ya, it's a lot of money. I was initially really surprised and a little disappointed when Derek first told me he was doing this and the price point. After hearing him talk about the epic mess it was to do this though, I get it. He can talk more about it, but there's just no good way to do this as a normal product run at an affordable price. This is basically a "what if" passion project to do something that a lot of other companies have thought about doing and given up on pretty early in the process. The only other stereo tube mics I can think of that are newer are the Brauner (well over $10k) and the Manley Gold Reference (can't remember how much that one was). Neither is made anymore I believe. The only "somewhat" affordable option was the Telefunken AR-70, which I owned for a very brief period and sold when Derek told me he was going to do the stereo V44 mic. I'm not going to go into bash mode, but I did not like the Telefunken at all. It was also fixed pattern on one capsule, because of the 7 pin cable limitation... All I'm saying is, this isn't some company randomly throwing together some parts and doing a money grab. If you want a C24 clone, it ain't going to be cheap. Not to mention you basically have a switchable 251 voicing on each channel too. I was given some foreknowledge of this also, from our friend Derek! vanguardaudiolabs Yes it sure is pricey but there are a few considerations that make it a good value. 1. It’s a Stereo C12 not just a C24- it fixes the bass starvation issue 2. You can use one 1/2 for a true C12 clone 3. You can use it as TWO C12s if recording 2 singers together 4. Freaking 251 mode!! 5. It’s a handmade boutique mic with incredible components |
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 19, 2023 13:35:10 GMT -6
$8? That is nuts. What makes it worth that much? $8999 to be precise. I'll try to do my best to break it down (without just straight-up posting the BOM, which would get me murdered by my business partner and also my wife) 1/ this is about as custom as custom gets. -There's only 10 units to start, which means very small quantity orders and no real price breaks on economies of scale. I honestly don't know how many of these I would ever sell. To manufacture 100+ of them right off the cuff feels like a great way to run my small business into the ground!
-Every PCB is being hand-assembled at our shop in California, every cable, every wire-to-board and board-to-board connector - all done in our shop. -The PSU chassis & laser engraving is being manufactured locally. I have no idea if this will qualify for "made in USA" status, as that particular badge feels very specifically written for the auto industry. BUT we will be doing quite a bit here.
-Speaking of which, lots of made-in-USA stuff as part of this mic. The microphone chassis itself is a modified V44S platform which we manufacture with our CM partner in China (an Apple supplier, so their tolerances and aesthetic QC are impeccable). We modify it here, at which point it has to be re-engraved. We also have to make a custom XLR adapter for it, since Neutrik hasn't come out with the 10-pin XLR insert for microphones yet. That special little adapter piece alone is about $50, and it's a metal ring about the size of my thumbnail.
2/ I'm going all-out on the parts list.
-Beesneez custom CK12 capsules with customized PTFE-insulated silver-stranded wiring. Ben makes some brilliant stuff and I love the sound of these capsules.
-Cinemag transformers
-precision-spec USA-made audiophile-grade resistors
-some discontinued grid electrolytics that are some of my absolute favorites I've ever used
-those Neutrik connectors?  more on those in a separate thread, but they basically are the only reason I was able to do this without remachining to fit those absurdly pricey and chunky Tuchel connectors.
-I'm attempting to procure some nice NOS 6072s for this first production run, but that's been trickier and trickier with the 5-star GEs…most of the nice ones got gobbled up long ago, and the quality of what's on the market now seems to have declined significantly over time.
-either an SKB or Pelican case with custom foam. Once again, in quantities of 10 is where it really gets painful.
-We're also cryo-treating the majority of the mic and PSU components. There's a few exceptions (cryo-treating precision resistors and changing their resistance seems counter-productive, for instance). That includes connectors, wiring, the "chonky boi" 10-pin cable.
This initial run of 10 I'm also trying to do some special one-of-a-kind stuff - the cryo-treated cables, NOS 6072s, some really nice sealed switches, things of that nature. I normally don't futz around with NOS because it can get really hard to do without huge cash outlays for bulk buys, lots of sorting, and when you run out of something it's out forever.
3/ The circuit for a C24 is kind of fun in that there's very few "shared" components. With the exception of parts of the power path, what you've basically got is 2 separate microphones in a single body. That makes for a) some very fun PCB design challenges, including mounting the transformers just below the tube on the rear of the board, and b) you can basically double the cost of what it would take to make a regular microphone.
4/ The amount of labor here is rather staggering. I won't be shocked if we end up with nearly 100 hours per mic for these 10 units. Building the V44S is already quite difficult. The reason most brands don't build (or abandon building) stereo mics is that they're a niche product, and they're a pain to put together. Building the wiring harnesses for those 10-pin connectors might be a form of torture, and I'm grateful that my trusty shop operators Kade and Curtis haven't reported me to OSHA for it. That's aside from the amount of R&D I've done, the difficulty that is sourcing some of this with such small quantities, the shipping, the inevitable chipping away of any profit by credit card companies, paypal, the rising cost of transport, etc. This is definitely the most expensive and intensive project I've ever done, but I'm grateful I have the opportunity to try to do it.
5/ Just something to keep in mind - in researching the original C24, I see units going for $20k on the low end (non-working or poorly-functioning) to nearly $40k on the high end. There's one on eBay right now for $35k, in quite good condition. I won't be surprised if it sells this week. AFAIK there are less than 1000 C24s ever built (remember what I said about them being a niche product?) It's a fairly exclusive club. Could I sell this for $15k? I mean…maybe. The money is not the main point of interest for me. I learned long ago that in the music industry, you can work 3 times as hard to earn half the money of a middling desk job.
I like making cool stuff. This is certainly an idea I've had my eye on and one I've always wanted to do, and the tech finally came around that allowed me to do it well. Once again, i'll put more about that in a separate comment.
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 19, 2023 14:10:00 GMT -6
"improved C24? Can you really improve upon a C24?"
That's a loaded question. I'll try to answer it with my design philosophy, and then dive into some specific points.
I've always felt that designing recording gear is this odd blend of both the SUBjective and the OBjective, which is what drew me to music and eventually this path in the first place.
The OBJECTIVE stuff is pretty easy - noise floor, design tolerances, sensitivity, durability…these are all things that we can measure pretty well. I think for the most part we can agree that we'd rather use a mic with a good Signal-to-Noise ratio than a poor one.
OBJECTIVELY, I have access to significantly better parts and tech than what was ever possible back then. AKG stopped making the "brass" CK12s because they were too darn hard and expensive to make with the capabilities they had. The parts you could get at RadioShack (RIP) were more precise, lower-noise, higher-performing, etc. than the "good stuff" you could get back in the 50s/60s. Simply put, if I couldn't have better OBJECTIVES than a vintage mic, I shouldn't be in this business. I'm playing with a stacked deck. (I'm not even THAT GOOD at the objective stuff - guys like Archut, Klaus Heyne, Ben Sneezby, Dave Royer, Eric & Dave @ Heiserman, etc. are the cream of the crop, and I'm just some guy who wanted to modify guitar pedals for my bass in grade school, so I started putzing around with a soldering iron and learning by breaking things.)
SUBJECTIVELY…well, that's where it gets tricky, right? The "why" of why we like the way things sound. The way we bandy about words like "warm" and "buttery" and "smooth" and then audio companies find a new one (I believe 'euphonic' was the soup du jour a few years ago) and enter that into the imprecise lexicon of writing about sound, which is sort of like smelling about colors. Where I think the designers of revered vintage gear sort of had an advantage is that they were forced to think about the subjective, because they were objectively limited. That's why I value the "ear test" so much higher than anything else, why I think FR charts are absurd marketing exercises (among other reasons, that's a whole other can of worms). I spent a lot of time in V13 development swapping components in and out, comparing 3 or 4 prototypes to 3 or 4 phenomenal vintage mics at various studios in real-world sessions, etc. Getting "the sound" is a never-ending quest, whether you're a musician, recording engineer, mix engineer, producer, sound designer, mastering engineer…and designing gear. That's kinda-sorta why this forum exists!
Specific points of improvement are a marriage of both the subjective and objective, as well as the requirements of modern engineers vs engineers back in 1959 when they introduced the C24.
1/ The original had a fair bit of crosstalk across the power path. We remedied that. My guess is that the components to do this simply would not fit in the original design. Heck, I barely fit everything in the V24 I wanted to get in there, and had to nix a couple things like a lo-cut switch that just weren't going to fit without compromising other parts of the design.
2/ The original had a PSU design that is sort of a product of its time, so we definitely updated that.
3/ The original circuit is a bit of an oddball. It's not a C12 x2, but it's also not a 251 x2 either, but kind of…a mix of both. The circuit principles of those mics are pretty much the same, but there's some distinct design choices that make them very different mic.s However, it did integrate the "rolloff cap" that is part of what gave the 251 its rather famous top end. We actually took that cap and made it switchable, so you can have the brighter top end of a C12, or the mellower top end of a 251. It's switchable PER CAPSULE, so you can run mid-side with one brighter and one darker, or you can run them both at 0º for a vocalist or other source in the same manner.
4/ The original also had a limited low end (for quite a few reasons). The T14 transformer, grid resistors, coupling caps, and cathode caps have a part to play here. (note that the C24 had 2 distinct versions, and the mkII had some changes to these parts! And that many folks have modified C24s during repair with different values etc.)
5/ The issues of C24 durability are fairly well-known. I'll say that it has a better rotation mechanism than the SM69 FET I worked on a few times, but it's still…well, not amazing. There's a few things I'm proud of at Vanguard, and the mechanical design of the V44S - and even more so the gen2 - is one of those things. We've had them take big falls at people's studios, on tour with artists, in our shop, and that mechanism is about as stageworthy as you're gonna get from something that's meant to rotate a delicate condenser capsule 120º. We're still using the V44S stainless-steel and ball-bearing thing for the V24, because…well, because it's pretty great!
6/ Ben's CK12 capsules are extraordinarily precise and my hat is off to Ben…They really are works of art, and being able to not worry about matching in the V24 is fantastic. The CK12 capsule is legendarily complicated, and the fact that he can make them with such tolerance and precision is a testament to his prowess.
I'll probably come back and edit this as I think of more stuff, but for now that's what I've got!
-DEREK
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Post by paulcheeba on Aug 19, 2023 14:50:17 GMT -6
$8? That is nuts. What makes it worth that much? Why are any of the other nice C12 clones around the $4k-$5K mark? Upton, Flea, Telefunken is charging almost $9k for a single C12. It's 2 mics for around $4k each, it's not cheap but it's not crazy by any stretch all things considered. This is also coming from the guy who can't afford anything like this, so take my opinion with a grain of salt . I'm just giving this thing a fair shakedown and having some fun. It sounds just as good as any other C12 I've come across, and they didn't skimp on the parts list. It's all top shelf. If you want to argue that the Uptons, Fleas and Telefunkens of the market are overpriced as well, I'll agree with you there! Gonna be a hard sell being a budget brand historically. Like GAP. |
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Post by paulcheeba on Aug 19, 2023 14:57:33 GMT -6
$8? That is nuts. What makes it worth that much? If you don't think $6K for Heiserman or Upton 251s is nuts, $8k for this doesn't seem nearly out of line. (unless you mean you expected it to be more expensive) I sold a mint MK1 C24 for £2K more. I guess I’m just out of touch with some stuff. |
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Post by Ward on Aug 19, 2023 16:18:27 GMT -6
If you don't think $6K for Heiserman or Upton 251s is nuts, $8k for this doesn't seem nearly out of line. (unless you mean you expected it to be more expensive) I sold a mint MK1 C24 for £2K more. I guess I’m just out of touch with some stuff. It is a rapidly changing world in this day and age . . . how can we stay in touch with everything ? |
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Post by drsax on Aug 19, 2023 16:59:54 GMT -6
Stereo mics with a proper rotating top capsule are a wonder of engineering. I can see why it’s so pricey. I have an original AKG C424 “quadraphonic” mic and it is an absolute specimen of quality engineering. The tolerances are so fine and tight, and one look inside lets you know that it took incredible planning and precision to pull it off correctly. This new offering from Vanguard looks great!
With that said, it’s all about the sound. If this sounds like a C12 or 251, well, 8k seems fair.
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. I'm just giving this thing a fair shakedown and having some fun. It sounds just as good as any other C12 I've come across, and they didn't skimp on the parts list. It's all top shelf. If you want to argue that the Uptons, Fleas and Telefunkens of the market are overpriced as well, I'll agree with you there! 
more on those in a separate thread, but they basically are the only reason I was able to do this without remachining to fit those absurdly pricey and chunky Tuchel connectors.