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Post by christophert on Aug 19, 2023 17:30:24 GMT -6
That's a lot of coin, although I bet it is a great mic.
As far as stereo mics, I'm blown away by the Mesanovic 2S stereo ribbon, which amazingly for a ribbon mic, captures extended top end detail.
I now have little desire to find another stereo mic.
Wish I had plenty of spare $ to splurge on this mic.
Best of luck Derek
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Post by paulcheeba on Aug 19, 2023 18:02:06 GMT -6
Only the extension of the real thing with extra bass would make this worth it and to be honest I’d rather have 2 Heiserman 47’s which I do have and use those in stereo. Or the SM69 tubes which I love and can stil be had for the same price. Good luck with this venture though.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 19, 2023 19:05:10 GMT -6
Hmm, that’s almost 11 grand cdn plus 20-30% all in landed: it better be fucking awesome !  |
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 19, 2023 19:23:27 GMT -6
Stereo mics with a proper rotating top capsule are a wonder of engineering. I can see why it’s so pricey. I have an original AKG C424 “quadraphonic” mic and it is an absolute specimen of quality engineering. The tolerances are so fine and tight, and one look inside lets you know that it took incredible planning and precision to pull it off correctly. This new offering from Vanguard looks great! With that said, it’s all about the sound. If this sounds like a C12 or 251, well, 8k seems fair. Those C424s were an interesting bird. IIRC they were post-brass-CK12 era. I was approached about making a quadraphonic V44S at one point but didn't have the time. It was an interesting concept, but there was no XLR connector at the time that I could use for 4 separate balanced outputs + a ground. I bet the 424 would have an interesting use case for the ambisonic-type stuff now. |
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Post by drumsound on Aug 19, 2023 22:15:00 GMT -6
If you don't think $6K for Heiserman or Upton 251s is nuts, $8k for this doesn't seem nearly out of line. (unless you mean you expected it to be more expensive) I sold a mint MK1 C24 for £2K more. I guess I’m just out of touch with some stuff. Could we (well could I) be confusing dollars to pounds? I don't keep up with the used vintage market at all. I was just commenting on 2 current highly regarded 251 clone prices to this mic's price. |
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Post by christophert on Aug 20, 2023 2:54:14 GMT -6
Only the extension of the real thing with extra bass would make this worth it and to be honest I’d rather have 2 Heiserman 47’s which I do have and use those in stereo. Or the SM69 tubes which I love and can stil be had for the same price. Good luck with this venture though. I have a pair of Hieserman 47's, but even they are lacking quite a bit in the low end capture. Excellent at detail though
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Post by paulcheeba on Aug 20, 2023 6:57:09 GMT -6
Only the extension of the real thing with extra bass would make this worth it and to be honest I’d rather have 2 Heiserman 47’s which I do have and use those in stereo. Or the SM69 tubes which I love and can stil be had for the same price. Good luck with this venture though. I have a pair of Hieserman 47's, but even they are lacking quite a bit in the low end capture. Excellent at detail though
A good 47 is one of the best low end captures I can find. Plus you can move them around and you’re not stuck in one place. |
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Post by paulcheeba on Aug 20, 2023 7:01:42 GMT -6
Any Chinese parts is still a hard sell at that price. I’d want 100% US or European for that price. Beesneez is the biggest seller there as it has history.
What is Cryo treatment? I hear them do it to tubes.
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Post by drsax on Aug 20, 2023 13:59:48 GMT -6
Stereo mics with a proper rotating top capsule are a wonder of engineering. I can see why it’s so pricey. I have an original AKG C424 “quadraphonic” mic and it is an absolute specimen of quality engineering. The tolerances are so fine and tight, and one look inside lets you know that it took incredible planning and precision to pull it off correctly. This new offering from Vanguard looks great! With that said, it’s all about the sound. If this sounds like a C12 or 251, well, 8k seems fair. Those C424s were an interesting bird. IIRC they were post-brass-CK12 era. I was approached about making a quadraphonic V44S at one point but didn't have the time. It was an interesting concept, but there was no XLR connector at the time that I could use for 4 separate balanced outputs + a ground. I bet the 424 would have an interesting use case for the ambisonic-type stuff now. yeah, mine are Teflon capsules. A great sounding mic though. I have been thinking about messing around with it for ambisonoc stuff. Maybe if I ever get some free time, lol. It’s an interesting design with the multi-cable connected to the breakout box with the 4 xlr’s on it. |
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Post by paulcheeba on Aug 20, 2023 20:49:47 GMT -6
Is it possible to go the other way and put decent capsules and tubes in the "pino" bodies?
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Post by antipodesjosh on Aug 21, 2023 3:00:28 GMT -6
Is it possible to go the other way and put decent capsules and tubes in the "pino" bodies? Like, a v13 with a Beesneez capsule? They’re doing limited run v13s with custom transformers, capsule mods could be fun too. |
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Post by andersmv on Aug 21, 2023 5:04:55 GMT -6
I don’t know why you would want to modify the capsule in the V4 and V13. It’s a good capsule and is a huge part of the sound. The tube choice is really specific for the V13 as well, myself and a lot of other people have swapped tubes and it’s one of the rare cases where the Vanguard tube just works better. It’s all a matter of opinion, but other tubes just made the V13 too aggressive to me. Might work well as a drum room mic at that point, or something else extreme.
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Post by paulcheeba on Aug 21, 2023 6:10:47 GMT -6
I don’t know why you would want to modify the capsule in the V4 and V13. It’s a good capsule and is a huge part of the sound. The tube choice is really specific for the V13 as well, myself and a lot of other people have swapped tubes and it’s one of the rare cases where the Vanguard tube just works better. It’s all a matter of opinion, but other tubes just made the V13 too aggressive to me. Might work well as a drum room mic at that point, or something else extreme. Meh. I would prefer a warmer and smoother capsule plus experiment with NOS tubes as the mic itself looks really nice but wouldn’t earn a place in my locker. Stock. |
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Post by andersmv on Aug 21, 2023 6:31:14 GMT -6
Good lord, the V13 is like the warmest mic I have, on the verge of sounded strait up muddy next to something like the Chandler TG. I love it for being warm/smooth, it’s basically the tube mic equivalent of a ribbon mic for me. Just from a technical standpoint, I’m not even sure where I would look for a capsule swap that would make that mic smoother. What did you have in mind?
I totally get the whole capsule swap mentality for vintage clones or circuits that are pretty well established. It just wouldn’t be worth it to me on something like the V13. It’s a really unique sounding mic, it’s hard for me to even try and compare it to anything else to give people a reference (closest I’ve gotten is telling people it’s like a U67 with a little more air and defined low end, but still, not really…). Might as well just buy a different mic at that point (which might be your point, haha).
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 21, 2023 8:19:25 GMT -6
Stereo mics with a proper rotating top capsule are a wonder of engineering. I can see why it’s so pricey. I have an original AKG C424 “quadraphonic” mic and it is an absolute specimen of quality engineering. The tolerances are so fine and tight, and one look inside lets you know that it took incredible planning and precision to pull it off correctly. This new offering from Vanguard looks great! With that said, it’s all about the sound. If this sounds like a C12 or 251, well, 8k seems fair. When we started designing the V44S, it was important to me that we came up with our own design that didn't suck. When I worked at Avantone, the CK40 was a absolute PITA to service. Two 1mm bent wires held the whole design together with tension. Once you took it apart, you never really could get it together in quite the same way. They got rattly, loose, and occasionally, just fell off. We had a box of "replacement tensioners" that we would run through. I mentioned working on the SM69 which is another PITA design that could get very noisy very quickly. The AKG might have been "the best of the bunch", although some would argue having the rotating frame in front of the capsule face (even when perforated) was an acoustic problem, but I don't believe that's the case at all. Still, it was something that regularly required service and delicate handling, IMO the mk2 was more durable than the mk1. But they all still were something to be nervous about. That's why we started from scratch on the design, and I'm really proud of the way it turned out. We had a V44S take a 10-ft fall on Andy Grammer's tour, and was not only together, but still sounded and worked the exact same. Nice little accidental road test. They're still a PITA to build, requiring a very customized unit-by-unit approach to the tensioning of the rotating mechanism. Too loose and you'll get it rattling. Too tight and it starts getting that metal-on-metal grinding feeling. Every single one at our shop goes through a pretty significant process, and then we use 1401C adhesive to lock the mechanism's screws and prevent them from getting loose later one. When we moved from our old metalwork CM to our new one, the metalwork got to where I've always dreamed it to be. Apple is the most anal-retentive, micro-managey company in the world with their vendors, and these guys do impeccable work in terms of tolerance and aesthetics. Everything is machined or stamped from SUS304 stainless steel. I don't particularly care where something is made, as long as it's made well and with care. Passion for a craft is universal. Fun story - when we were designing the LOLLI attachment for the V1, I went through probably 10 samples at various metalwork vendors. None of them could do it well. I tried US guys too. Between tolerances and plating (and the difficulty of plating sharp internal radii), I was not getting what I was looking for. Then I found, by referral, this guy in Guangzhou in a cheap little roadside shop. No ISO certs or anything of that nature. His major customer is a big big drone company. I got samples from him and they were absolutely delightful….miles better than anything any of the local US shops did for me. He'd been doing this for a couple decades and loved what he did, and the passion showed in the end result. I'll seek out vendors wherever I can, as long as they are consistent and passionate. When someone really delights in what they do and dedicates themself to their craft, it shows. I try to be that kind of craftsperson as well, and I know Ben Sneezby is! Back to the V24, the V24 microphone bodies themselves are actually "cosmetic reject" V44S and V13 bits from that Apple CM. Then we hand-modify them here, get them polished, re-engraved, and build them together with other parts from the US, Europe, Australia, etc. I did quite a bit of stuff locally, but my goal is to use the best parts I can get, and those V44S parts really are a work of art (although I hear the guy who designed them is a complete tool.) |
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 21, 2023 8:24:54 GMT -6
The tube choice is really specific for the V13 as well, myself and a lot of other people have swapped tubes and it’s one of the rare cases where the Vanguard tube just works better. It’s all a matter of opinion, but other tubes just made the V13 too aggressive to me. Might work well as a drum room mic at that point, or something else extreme. Tube gain, and the way the tube interacts with the transformer, are two things that most people don't fully appreciate when swapping tubes in and out of microphones. The "if it sounds good it is good" adage applies here, but a 12AX7 in a V13 circuit will quickly start pushing the transformer audibly. Gain is part of that, impedance is another. I've heard some NOS tubes sound fantastic in the V13, and some sound absolutely awful. Same with modern production tubes. I keep an EHX 6072A as the spare "flavor" tube in my personal V13s. I like what it does to the lows and highs on certain instruments like grand piano, although it's at the expense of a certain midrange magic which is part of why it slays on female vox. |
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 21, 2023 8:32:34 GMT -6
Is it possible to go the other way and put decent capsules and tubes in the "pino" bodies? Like, a v13 with a Beesneez capsule? They’re doing limited run v13s with custom transformers, capsule mods could be fun too. we've done a couple cinemag runs in the V13 in conjunction with our friends at AudioScape, but I keep those limited. also one time i put in a heiserman 47 capsule in the V13 when i was working on a mod for a friend's different mic, just for fun. Sounded fantastic, but definitely did not sound like a V13. You're swapping out the beating heart of a microphone when you swap out the capsule, after all. We try to make Vanguard mics sound like vanguards, not like other mics. We try to add new colors to the sonic palette with our designs, as opposed to the 97th version of a color that already exists. (I'm not saying the old colors are bad, I quite like them! It's just part of my design philosophy.) I never say never, and may yet do some limited custom runs of our mics with different capsules than the stock one, but i REALLY like our capsule voicing and we spent a long time getting there when we developed the V13. IMO without a great-sounding capsule, you're not gonna have a great-sounding mic. |
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Post by enlav on Aug 21, 2023 8:38:19 GMT -6
Good lord, the V13 is like the warmest mic I have, on the verge of sounded strait up muddy next to something like the Chandler TG. Not to derail the thread too much... There could be some differences between different production runs and the mkI/mkII models. I own a mk I that I got not long before they announced and started shipping the mkII (or version II, don't remember the exact naming convention).
Sometimes the V13 sounds like my brightest LDC (sans the TLM103). Certainly warmer than some other tube LDCs I've used in studios. But generally at the moment, I reach for the V13 if I want to emphasize the air/brilliance of a source or if something is already warm enough. The subtle low-mid push (subtle compared to other mics in the arsenal, at least) is that sprinkle of salt for me. YMMV, we all hear things differently, and certainly use adjectives very differently as it pertains to sound.
In any case, I'm a sucker for stereo microphones. I also have the V44S which I think is a steal at 1K considering its sound and convenience. If I was running a larger operation, I'd definitely grab one of these V24's.
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 21, 2023 9:23:31 GMT -6
Good lord, the V13 is like the warmest mic I have, on the verge of sounded strait up muddy next to something like the Chandler TG. Not to derail the thread too much... There could be some differences between different production runs and the mkI/mkII models. I own a mk I that I got not long before they announced and started shipping the mkII (or version II, don't remember the exact naming convention).
Sometimes the V13 sounds like my brightest LDC (sans the TLM103). Certainly warmer than some other tube LDCs I've used in studios. But generally at the moment, I reach for the V13 if I want to emphasize the air/brilliance of a source or if something is already warm enough. The subtle low-mid push (subtle compared to other mics in the arsenal, at least) is that sprinkle of salt for me. YMMV, we all hear things differently, and certainly use adjectives very differently as it pertains to sound.
In any case, I'm a sucker for stereo microphones. I also have the V44S which I think is a steal at 1K considering its sound and convenience. If I was running a larger operation, I'd definitely grab one of these V24's.
Tried to keep the sonic fingerprint identical from gen1 to gen2. Some (but not all) of the differences, in no particular order: 1) switch to much more expensive US-made low-noise resistors dropped the noise floor even lower by 2-3dB per mic model 2) a more robust PSU transformer gives the tube a bit more room to breathe 3) neutrik group interconnects, including REAN cables 4) stainless steel construction on everything, including the new PSU design 5) fun new PCB easter eggs everywhere. I design the PCBs, so the silkscreen layer gets some fun stuff on it. 6) we standardized all our chassis platforms, so the V4 and V44S got about 20% bigger, and the V13 got about 5% bigger, but they're all in 50mm outer diameter tubing now (the headgrills are 52mm). Part of that was metric rawmat sizing, part of it is using the newer bigger resistors. |
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Post by Ward on Aug 21, 2023 9:33:11 GMT -6
When I worked at Avantone, the CK40 was a absolute PITA to service. Two 1mm bent wires held the whole design together with tension. Once you took it apart, you never really could get it together in quite the same way. They got rattly, loose, and occasionally, just fell off. We had a box of "replacement tensioners" that we would run through. I take it the NDA has long ago expired?  |
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 21, 2023 9:57:18 GMT -6
When I worked at Avantone, the CK40 was a absolute PITA to service. Two 1mm bent wires held the whole design together with tension. Once you took it apart, you never really could get it together in quite the same way. They got rattly, loose, and occasionally, just fell off. We had a box of "replacement tensioners" that we would run through. I take it the NDA has long ago expired? yes, and my old boss is my business partner so i'm not terribly worried about it  |
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 21, 2023 10:02:58 GMT -6
Those C424s were an interesting bird. IIRC they were post-brass-CK12 era. I was approached about making a quadraphonic V44S at one point but didn't have the time. It was an interesting concept, but there was no XLR connector at the time that I could use for 4 separate balanced outputs + a ground. I bet the 424 would have an interesting use case for the ambisonic-type stuff now. yeah, mine are Teflon capsules. A great sounding mic though. I have been thinking about messing around with it for ambisonoc stuff. Maybe if I ever get some free time, lol. It’s an interesting design with the multi-cable connected to the breakout box with the 4 xlr’s on it. I think the Teflon capsules get a bit underrated because people miss the brass ones. the teflons can sound very good in the right circuit. IMO, the newer absurdly-complex 414 circuits are not necessarily that. At least they did away with those bloody 5-way switches, though, terrible durability on those switches. I replaced quite a few when i was teching independently. That and the shedding box foam gave me a fair bit of business back then! |
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Post by vanguardaudiolabs on Aug 21, 2023 10:06:59 GMT -6
Hmm, that’s almost 11 grand cdn plus 20-30% all in landed: it better be fucking awesome ! that is the end goal!  |
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Post by Ward on Aug 21, 2023 10:10:31 GMT -6
Not to derail the thread too much... There could be some differences between different production runs and the mkI/mkII models. I own a mk I that I got not long before they announced and started shipping the mkII (or version II, don't remember the exact naming convention). Sometimes the V13 sounds like my brightest LDC (sans the TLM103). Certainly warmer than some other tube LDCs I've used in studios. But generally at the moment, I reach for the V13 if I want to emphasize the air/brilliance of a source or if something is already warm enough. The subtle low-mid push (subtle compared to other mics in the arsenal, at least) is that sprinkle of salt for me. YMMV, we all hear things differently, and certainly use adjectives very differently as it pertains to sound. In any case, I'm a sucker for stereo microphones. I also have the V44S which I think is a steal at 1K considering its sound and convenience. If I was running a larger operation, I'd definitely grab one of these V24's.
Tried to keep the sonic fingerprint identical from gen1 to gen2. Some (but not all) of the differences, in no particular order: 1) switch to much more expensive US-made low-noise resistors dropped the noise floor even lower by 2-3dB per mic model 2) a more robust PSU transformer gives the tube a bit more room to breathe 3) neutrik group interconnects, including REAN cables 4) stainless steel construction on everything, including the new PSU design 5) fun new PCB easter eggs everywhere. I design the PCBs, so the silkscreen layer gets some fun stuff on it. 6) we standardized all our chassis platforms, so the V4 and V44S got about 20% bigger, and the V13 got about 5% bigger, but they're all in 50mm outer diameter tubing now (the headgrills are 52mm). Part of that was metric rawmat sizing, part of it is using the newer bigger resistors. I'm absolutely THRILLED to have a gen 2 V44s I don't even bother with other room mics now when recording drums. The V44s in Blumlein or even XY out 8' or more in front of the kit picks up everything and makes EVERYTHING sound better. I think you're on to something here, Derek, and expect nothing less than RAVE reviews about the V24! You know it's on my list. |
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Post by Ward on Aug 21, 2023 10:18:46 GMT -6
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