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Post by chessparov on Mar 22, 2023 11:15:25 GMT -6
Can be "game of inches" IMHO. But worth it for some. I know I'm not saying anything new! If I have a great 2023... Audioscape Opto, in the back of my mind.  Chris |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2023 11:18:03 GMT -6
I once really, really believed that hardware was the ONLY way. Then I went hybrid. Then I really, really believed hybrid was the only way. Now I'm pretty much all ITB save for preamps and some processing before the A/Ds but now I realize that it was all mostly wishful thinking, hoping to "purchase the tone". I'm now doing my best work by far now because I'm no longer looking for gear to do it. No longer trying, fiddling with settings but actually losing perspective with every attempt. Which is what happens.. You spend lots of money and time *looking* for the gear to get the tone you believe you need, so you never look elsewhere but down the same path you've been travelling. Well I've been exactly where you are, saying similar things and eventually moved back to hybrid. Because I've never heard one of your tracks before this does present an opportunity to be extremely blunt as I can't offend the work of someone I've never heard.
You're assuming that my goals align with yours, that I'd want the product of your end results and that I work the same as you. For a start I'm not "losing perspective with every attempt" because my hybrid solution in the HW world is mainly set and forget. Who say's I've not looked "elsewhere"? I did state multiple times that before the last couple of years I was ITB only. Also who says I didn't achieve the "tone" I set out to find and once I'd found said methodology it needed to change?
I'm glad you've had your own epiphanies but there is room for more than one opinion on this, I've never believed that there is a right or wrong way. As I keep saying it's not a case of better or worse but it certainly is different, if you don't appreciate that fine. Keep on chuckling at those with an empty wallet..
Most of the plugins are more toys than modern hardware, which is saying a lot. Waves, Plug-in Alliance, and UAD emulations can get out. There are still guys using bad biquad filters in 2023. And most of the itb guys are stuck in 2003 or 2013 with their similar, mostly horrible, itb sounds. Sell your toys and keep your tools. |
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Post by drumsound on Mar 22, 2023 12:42:53 GMT -6
I once really, really believed that hardware was the ONLY way. Then I went hybrid. Then I really, really believed hybrid was the only way. Now I'm pretty much all ITB save for preamps and some processing before the A/Ds but now I realize that it was all mostly wishful thinking, hoping to "purchase the tone". I'm now doing my best work by far now because I'm no longer looking for gear to do it. No longer trying, fiddling with settings but actually losing perspective with every attempt. Which is what happens.. You spend lots of money and time *looking* for the gear to get the tone you believe you need, so you never look elsewhere but down the same path you've been travelling. Yeah, hardware, hybrid, or ITB one thing doesn’t change: you still have to boss the tones and performances around until they sound like a record. Hopefully a great one. That is what I noticed when I went PT and by default hybrid (generally summing and 2-bus analog compression these days, but I used to use more outboard FX early on) for mixing. Once I got comfortable, my mixes sound like I mixed them. And I can do so much more to the mix should I choose, or it can stay in the simpler mode. That's what I and my clients decide. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2023 17:27:32 GMT -6
Moving on, anyway I got a retailer quotation for the Shelford, MD-441 and 6176. The latter was average but they only offered me $1840.00 for the Shelford. Is it me or does that seem like an utter lowball?
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Post by wiz on Mar 22, 2023 17:30:33 GMT -6
I once really, really believed that hardware was the ONLY way. Then I went hybrid. Then I really, really believed hybrid was the only way. Now I'm pretty much all ITB save for preamps and some processing before the A/Ds but now I realize that it was all mostly wishful thinking, hoping to "purchase the tone". I'm now doing my best work by far now because I'm no longer looking for gear to do it. No longer trying, fiddling with settings but actually losing perspective with every attempt. Which is what happens.. You spend lots of money and time *looking* for the gear to get the tone you believe you need, so you never look elsewhere but down the same path you've been travelling. We trod the same path... should have let me know.. we could have held hands along the way...8) cheers Wiz |
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Post by Tbone81 on Mar 22, 2023 17:33:06 GMT -6
Moving on, anyway I got a retailer quotation for the Shelford, MD-441 and 6176. The latter was average but they only offered me $1840.00 for the Shelford. Is it me or does that seem like an utter lowball? Thats an insanely low price for the shelford in my opinion… But in line with what a dealer is going to offer more than likely |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2023 8:46:50 GMT -6
Y'know what, nah the Shelford is going, so is the 6176, MD441-U and those MOTU's.. Got offered a bit more for the Shelford so meh.
Things is with the Big Six you can send post fader / processing with the flick of a button, if I cut down on external chains there's no need for patchbay's and the whole solution becomes incredibly simple. Also I get 4 comp's to track with at any time, I can push my synths for example through a stereo MU or decide that I want the Chandler on vocals, if not I just move the XLR over to next channel quick as you like.
I won't deny it one of the problems of having a larger setup is if you ever have to re-wire the damn thing which I currently do unfortunately it's not awesome. Also I'm sure my studio draws like 10,000 watts.. I'm joking of course (sort of, maybe). Anyway I'm pointing towards the new fangled ethos today that preamps don't really matter whilst at the same time refusing to sell my high end preamp, well apparently I love the smell of reverse hypocrisy in a morning. Although I do appreciate the advice, when pushed to think about what's really necessary it can end in better or at least more useful results.
So, I take this thread as a positive win and I'm better off for it.
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 24, 2023 13:43:08 GMT -6
Moving on, anyway I got a retailer quotation for the Shelford, MD-441 and 6176. The latter was average but they only offered me $1840.00 for the Shelford. Is it me or does that seem like an utter lowball? If that's converted to GBP then that's a definite low ball. Better selling it on this forum, GS even Reverb/eBay if you can find a decent buyer! (no easy I know) |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 24, 2023 13:48:26 GMT -6
Y'know what, nah the Shelford is going, so is the 6176, MD441-U and those MOTU's.. Got offered a bit more for the Shelford so meh. Things is with the Big Six you can send post fader / processing with the flick of a button, if I cut down on external chains there's no need for patchbay's and the whole solution becomes incredibly simple. Also I get 4 comp's to track with at any time, I can push my synths for example through a stereo MU or decide that I want the Chandler on vocals, if not I just move the XLR over to next channel quick as you like. I won't deny it one of the problems of having a larger setup is if you ever have to re-wire the damn thing which I currently do unfortunately it's not awesome. Also I'm sure my studio draws like 10,000 watts.. I'm joking of course (sort of, maybe). Anyway I'm pointing towards the new fangled ethos today that preamps don't really matter whilst at the same time refusing to sell my high end preamp, well apparently I love the smell of reverse hypocrisy in a morning. Although I do appreciate the advice, when pushed to think about what's really necessary it can end in better or at least more useful results. So, I take this thread as a positive win and I'm better off for it. I honesty do think pre-amps matter. I never used to until I finally saved enough to buy a Coil CA70s, BAE 1073D, AEA RPQ and a Millennia STT-1. Each one has a very definite character. I love my vocals through a Coil CA-70s. Of course I'm aware that says something about the inadequacies of my voice, and that you can record Peter Gabriel with a piece of string and a paper cup and he'll still sound like a world class vocalist. Problem is. I'm not Peter Gabriel, I need all the help I can get! |
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 24, 2023 14:07:56 GMT -6
Some quality OB for tracking has been a lesson learned here.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2023 17:34:55 GMT -6
I honesty do think pre-amps matter. I never used to until I finally saved enough to buy a Coil CA70s, BAE 1073D, AEA RPQ and a Millennia STT-1. Each one has a very definite character. I love my vocals through a Coil CA-70s. Of course I'm aware that says something about the inadequacies of my voice, and that you can record Peter Gabriel with a piece of string and a paper cup and he'll still sound like a world class vocalist. Problem is. I'm not Peter Gabriel, I need all the help I can get!
I'll add a TLDR version, I'm not saying you're wrong but it's the SSL that's making this possible without feeling too much like I've just wasted time, effort and money.
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Long version: I understand but the preamps in the SSL are somewhat designed upon the Duality and AWS. I've used both of those consoles and they're not one to one but not far from either, you don't get many (4) but they are ultra high bandwidth, low noise pre-amps with 72dB's worth of gain and +27dB's worth of headroom, they also have a HPF and Hi-Z. On paper they spec out about the same as the Shelford's, in terms of sound they are just very, very clean.
I've heard tracks created on the SSL alone and they do have an obvious sound to them, very clear, detailed, wide, a bit in your face in a pleasent way but they all seem to lack a heart thudding low end. We've discussed this before about SSL in general and you essentially have to strap a pultec type EQ across the main inserts to correct that, give it a boost at 60hz and it seems happy enough. However I will be inserting iron and tubes into the path via inserts and I can use the onboard EQ for tracking so kcatthedog don't worry it's still effectively an outboard chain, I always use corrective EQ to sort out problems with a mic before it hits the compressor.
So, I guess my point was there's an inbetween from the POV that pre-amps don't matter and a Shelford. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the SSL, especially compared to some of the crap I've used like the old Digi interfaces (I did use the pre-amps on them, meh). Anyway, it appears to be mic specific really, when it comes to tube mic's there's not enough difference between the Shelford / SSL, the Beyer M88 prefers the SSL, my KM184 preferred the Shelford as did the MD-441U. There are basic technical resons for that I'm sure but I never really bothered to find out why.
Initially the Big Six got a bit of a luke warm reception from me, most likely just bias and cork sniffing. At this point it has become a great sounding heart of a small studio and in hindsight I'm really glad it did. I was looking to sell pretty much everything (besides the comps) at one point and buy a Neve 8424 or Looptrotter full of 500's, at this point I'm so thankful that I didn't.
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Post by chessparov on Mar 24, 2023 18:17:09 GMT -6
Sorry to report this guys. But my (now) Vintage Presonus Audiobox-With 45db gain from the fire breathing IC op amps...
Is not presently available for sale.
Chris
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 24, 2023 23:12:02 GMT -6
I honesty do think pre-amps matter. I never used to until I finally saved enough to buy a Coil CA70s, BAE 1073D, AEA RPQ and a Millennia STT-1. Each one has a very definite character. I love my vocals through a Coil CA-70s. Of course I'm aware that says something about the inadequacies of my voice, and that you can record Peter Gabriel with a piece of string and a paper cup and he'll still sound like a world class vocalist. Problem is. I'm not Peter Gabriel, I need all the help I can get!
I'll add a TLDR version, I'm not saying you're wrong but it's the SSL that's making this possible without feeling too much like I've just wasted time, effort and money.
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Long version: I understand but the preamps in the SSL are somewhat designed upon the Duality and AWS. I've used both of those consoles and they're not one to one but not far from either, you don't get many (4) but they are ultra high bandwidth, low noise pre-amps with 72dB's worth of gain and +27dB's worth of headroom, they also have a HPF and Hi-Z. On paper they spec out about the same as the Shelford's, in terms of sound they are just very, very clean.
I've heard tracks created on the SSL alone and they do have an obvious sound to them, very clear, detailed, wide, a bit in your face in a pleasent way but they all seem to lack a heart thudding low end. We've discussed this before about SSL in general and you essentially have to strap a pultec type EQ across the main inserts to correct that, give it a boost at 60hz and it seems happy enough. However I will be inserting iron and tubes into the path via inserts and I can use the onboard EQ for tracking so kcatthedog don't worry it's still effectively an outboard chain, I always use corrective EQ to sort out problems with a mic before it hits the compressor.
So, I guess my point was there's an inbetween from the POV that pre-amps don't matter and a Shelford. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the SSL, especially compared to some of the crap I've used like the old Digi interfaces (I did use the pre-amps on them, meh). Anyway, it appears to be mic specific really, when it comes to tube mic's there's not enough difference between the Shelford / SSL, the Beyer M88 prefers the SSL, my KM184 preferred the Shelford as did the MD-441U. There are basic technical resons for that I'm sure but I never really bothered to find out why.
Initially the Big Six got a bit of a luke warm reception from me, most likely just bias and cork sniffing. At this point it has become a great sounding heart of a small studio and in hindsight I'm really glad it did. I was looking to sell pretty much everything (besides the comps) at one point and buy a Neve 8424 or Looptrotter full of 500's, at this point I'm so thankful that I didn't.
It’s really just my vocals, which I hate recorded with a solid state preamp. So think I could make a record with an SSL Big Six and the Coil CA-70s. My other preamps are great to have, especially the BAE 1073 pre/EQ which is very rock n roll sounding, but they’re not essential. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2023 2:39:53 GMT -6
It’s really just my vocals, which I hate recorded with a solid state preamp. So think I could make a record with an SSL Big Six and the Coil CA-70s. My other preamps are great to have, especially the BAE 1073 pre/EQ which is very rock n roll sounding, but they’re not essential. Well, what's the difference between a tracking compressor with tubes and transformers vs. a pre-amp with transformers? Mu's or Opto's in the chain can have far more of an impact and the only two exceptions to that self imposed "rule" I've discovered are the UA 610 & the DBX 676 thingy I had a while back ago. Both are rather saturated to begin with and in the wrong chain don't sound all that great, that's why they're most likely followed by a cleaner version of the 1176 FET or a VCA.
The Acme XLA-500 is like a 2A on roids, that certainly doesn't require tubes or transformers behind it. In the grand scheme the pre-amp only needs to get a mic to line level without causing issues. You can warp, saturate etc. after the fact or even whilst tracking with other outboard. The problem with a solid state interface is you can't put something like a mojo comp in the path before it hits the AD, with the Big Six you can.
I know you've got a lot of experience but IME via using a lot of plugins, HW, consoles and demo'ing stuff I have realised how "tool like" this entire endeavour is. If you match a tube mic with a tube pre-amp that has transformers, into something like a MU it's like using a spanner to screw in a cross head.
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 25, 2023 3:43:26 GMT -6
It’s really just my vocals, which I hate recorded with a solid state preamp. So think I could make a record with an SSL Big Six and the Coil CA-70s. My other preamps are great to have, especially the BAE 1073 pre/EQ which is very rock n roll sounding, but they’re not essential. Well, what's the difference between a tracking compressor with tubes and transformers vs. a pre-amp with transformers? Mu's or Opto's in the chain can have far more of an impact and the only two exceptions to that self imposed "rule" I've discovered are the UA 610 & the DBX 676 thingy I had a while back ago. Both are rather saturated to begin with and in the wrong chain don't sound all that great, that's why they're most likely followed by a cleaner version of the 1176 FET or a VCA.
The Acme XLA-500 is like a 2A on roids, that certainly doesn't require tubes or transformers behind it. In the grand scheme the pre-amp only needs to get a mic to line level without causing issues. You can warp, saturate etc. after the fact or even whilst tracking with other outboard. The problem with a solid state interface is you can't put something like a mojo comp in the path before it hits the AD, with the Big Six you can.
I know you've got a lot of experience but IME via using a lot of plugins, HW, consoles and demo'ing stuff I have realised how "tool like" this entire endeavour is. If you match a tube mic with a tube pre-amp that has transformers, into something like a MU it's like using a spanner to screw in a cross head.
My vocal chain is, Wunder CM7 into Coil CA-70s > Retro STA Level > HEDD 192. IME I don’t get the same magic from the Retro STA Level (or Phoenix Mastering Plus vari mu) with a solid state pre. Those 50’s / 60’s tube mu comps pair like a dream with a tube pre. There’s some sort of push me pull me hand shaking going on between the circuits that I can’t explain but sounds like liquid gold to me ears …. So so smooth - which suits my vocals. That said on a blues track I’ll go SM7 > 1073 > 2A/76 No sod it …. I have to commit to saying pre amps are very important to me But it’s all good, I can respect everyone’s approach and at the end of the day …. It’s all about the music that counts to the listener, definitely not the pre amp choice. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 25, 2023 3:57:43 GMT -6
If you don’t like the sound of a mike after a pre, a comp isn’t going fix that: first things first!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2023 3:59:19 GMT -6
If you don’t like the sound of a mike after a pre, a comp isn’t going fix that: first things first! Yeah, you need to replace the mic.. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 25, 2023 4:02:27 GMT -6
Just meant get the right mike and pre, then worry about compression ! |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 25, 2023 6:04:30 GMT -6
Just meant get the right mike and pre, then worry about compression ! For me that's true. The mic and the pre seem to work hand in hand and then that's true of the compressor .... I find it to be a very interactive chain. Just like my guitar into pedals into a tube amp - some combinations work like a dream others never seem to sit right. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2023 7:04:05 GMT -6
Sorry to report this guys. But my (now) Vintage Presonus Audiobox-With 45db gain from the fire breathing IC op amps... Is not presently available for sale. Chris what about the ice breathing? I will get the water breathing if it is not available, I'd even go with the air breathing standard My apollo twin duo can no longer handle windows (not even kidding) |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2023 7:08:13 GMT -6
I just went with the Buzz elixir tonic essence and potion, also i have a spl deesser for my U87ai with the mk67 mod
I got the spl deesser and the headphone amp on a ebay sale no one bet on $80 aud each
I saw it and was like future rack space covered
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2023 19:04:45 GMT -6
Just meant get the right mike and pre, then worry about compression ! Nah, nope, no.. I didn't start yesterday Kcat and I find this advice misleading to beginners. What is "the right preamp"? The technically inferior aged designs pulled from consoles? Engineers managed fine with them. The super high fidelity new preamps in modern decent interfaces or mixers? Well, a lot of engineers manage just fine with them too. I've had to field engineer on occasion, never once did I say sorry your track is doomed because you don't have the right preamp.
There's way too many examples out there on every side of the fence to ever make any sort of solid conclusion, it's just a lot of subjective preference like most things in audio engineering are. Of course there are reasons, you don't always want a high fidelity chain especially in rock / metal because they take up too much audio real estate for a start and generally when someone's wailing at a mic it will sound pretty nasty on something like a C800 for example. Sometimes you need to obfuscate as TheHighTenor was pointing towards. This is just bread and butter stuff.. Also yeah, a lot of solid state preamps in the past sucked. They did, especially towards the lower end (some still suck today to be fair).
I get your general premise, a comp won't fix a bad sound and that's starkly obvious but who's saying the SSL pre-amp's for example sound bad?
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 26, 2023 3:08:09 GMT -6
Just meant get the right mike and pre, then worry about compression ! Nah, nope, no.. I didn't start yesterday Kcat and I find this advice misleading to beginners. What is "the right preamp"? The technically inferior aged designs pulled from consoles? Engineers managed fine with them. The super high fidelity new preamps in modern decent interfaces or mixers? Well, a lot of engineers manage just fine with them too. I've had to field engineer on occasion, never once did I say sorry your track is doomed because you don't have the right preamp.
There's way too many examples out there on every side of the fence to ever make any sort of solid conclusion, it's just a lot of subjective preference like most things in audio engineering are. Of course there are reasons, you don't always want a high fidelity chain especially in rock / metal because they take up too much audio real estate for a start and generally when someone's wailing at a mic it will sound pretty nasty on something like a C800 for example. Sometimes you need to obfuscate as TheHighTenor was pointing towards. This is just bread and butter stuff.. Also yeah, a lot of solid state preamps in the past sucked. They did, especially towards the lower end (some still suck today to be fair).
I get your general premise, a comp won't fix a bad sound and that's starkly obvious but who's saying the SSL pre-amp's for example sound bad?
No offense, but you are misinterpreting or overcomplicating what I said. Right, means right sound for the task and keep it simple. Get that sound the way you want, as best you can,then worry about compression, depending on dynamics of the performance. |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 26, 2023 5:40:42 GMT -6
No offense, but you are misinterpreting or overcomplicating what I said. Right, means right sound for the task and keep it simple. Get that sound the way you want, as best you can,then worry about compression, depending on dynamics of the performance. I got to ask, why are you telling me this? If somehow you don't believe I have a clue or have never used the equipment pics below. Kcat, I've been doing this for the last two and a half decades plus I've been through a metric ton of stuff. I know what I need to look out for..
Very nice rig and set-up Pull that desk out and put those big Dyn’s on some speaker stands behind it …. you’ll thank me www.kmraudio.com/towersonic-ts1-pair.phpNot cheap I know, but they’re blinking effective and I found the improvement getting my monitors off the desk and into the old equilateral triangle “thing” made a huge difference - big monitors love to breathe a bit - especially for those long bass waves How do you rate the STAM 2A? I noticed it doesn’t have the emphasis control like the original and the Audioscape has - do you miss it? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2023 6:04:49 GMT -6
Very nice rig and set-up Pull that desk out and put those big Dyn’s on some speaker stands behind it …. you’ll thank me www.kmraudio.com/towersonic-ts1-pair.phpNot cheap I know, but they’re blinking effective and I found the improvement getting my monitors off the desk and into the old equilateral triangle “thing” made a huge difference - big monitors love to breathe a bit - especially for those long bass waves How do you rate the STAM 2A? I noticed it doesn’t have the emphasis control like the original and the Audioscape has - do you miss it? Old pics chief, I ended up rotating the baffle then placing them in a horizontal position and mounting the dyn's on ISO's ($250.00 a piece may I say due to the weight). This career / hobby ain't cheap. As for the STAM's I sold my Tele 2A's because I really could not tell the difference and as much as I try to rebel I am very much like you Tenor. As for the desk position I used to have it further out until I ran it through ARC & REW, I had a 100Hz issue until I put it right up against the wall. |
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