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Post by drumsound on Feb 3, 2023 14:14:11 GMT -6
I'll look into that, but I bet you're right. Only listings for UA plugins I can find on the 5 biggest dealers I can think of on line are for packages with an interface. Apparently the bundles are for sale at least at SW, but not individuals. Bundles are where the money savings are. link |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 3, 2023 14:36:52 GMT -6
But who wouldn’t have bought a month ago when you got twice as many plug ins ?
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 3, 2023 14:37:09 GMT -6
Why am I not surprised by this? My suspicion - Dave's standards are simply too high for the UA bean counters. Remember that they got their commercial "weight" by family ties and that UA does not now make the definitive versions of ANY of their famous pieces - and their prices are generally on the high side. I'm not a financial supporter, but I must admit that they haven't rested on their laurels -- I'd be surprised if >15% of their profits come from their hardware classics/reissues. Software -
It's much cheaper, much easier from every aspect, and has a much higher profit margin than hardware. And once you let the bean counters in.....
And yes, they ARE resting on their laurels - and those of a number of other people.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 3, 2023 14:42:08 GMT -6
Seems confusing, buy the Bock brand - not a necessarily hugely famous microphone brand although definitely known amongst those who purchase microphones to be of the highest quality, then fire the main designer/creator and assume your credibility with the taking over the brand wont be completely shot? When the target audience interested in the Bock brand would surely notice something like that happening? UA seems to be spreading themselves far too thin to make good decisions Bean counters are stupid. And the first rule of being a bean counter is to assume that eveybody else is more stupid than you are. It often works - in the short term.
Example - look at what's left of Bell & Howell....
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Post by jmoose on Feb 3, 2023 15:07:30 GMT -6
No offense to anyone but could we keep debate about quality of plugins to somewhere else..? Why does everything always devolve into that topic?
The real loss here, with Bock leaving isn't the mics. I'm sure they'll be solid whenever they do finally drop.
What we've all lost is everything that was planned beyond the mics.
When he came aboard the great ship UA I heard from a couple mutual LA friends that big things were planned including, down the road great possibilities for more hardware.
Realistically, Mr Bock is a rare breed of human who can fix anything in a studio. Not only mics. Tape machines. Rebuild an old Neve desk? This is not a problem. And I'm sure he's got more of that work then he could possibly handle. On the east coast master tech John Klett has a three year backlog. At least that's what he told me a couple years ago when I asked him about squaring up my old Telefunken modules. I passed.
Guys like that? They're gonna be fine. I'm sure he's not worried about where his next sandwich is coming from.
As for UA? Hardware? Another thing I heard from a few people, including my dude at Sweetwater so I have to assume its true...
Apparently just as Bock was coming onboard UA broke ground on a new facility dedicated to building mics & analog hardware. Not renovated. Ground up construction on a piece of land near (across the street?) from their main headquarters.
That's a massive investment. Big time skin.
Yeah, opinions vary on their LA2a including my own. Be that as it may I know at one point, maybe only a year ago there was a massive backorder on those. The SW guy told me, as we're talking about my supposedly incoming Bock mics... that some of the Tube Tech CL1A biz shifted to UA. With TT on a multi year backlog that makes sense.
That new facility was also the reason given for missing the first ship date. That things were taking a bit of time to really come online... I get it. As a "tool guy" I know Stanley built a new plant in Texas supposedly dedicated to making Craftsman tools... things like sockets & wrenches. The plant exists. We've seen pics on social media of new tools here & there... but where are they..?
I digress. Slightly.
People dig the UA hardware including me. At one point, a long time ago they were purely a hardware company. Those LA3A reissues they made 20 years ago are great! Why did those disappear? Seems every time UA puts a pic of those on their social media people ask them to build those again.
That's the loss. Things like that. What if... what if down the road Bock would've designed a 1073 killer? Some kinda preamp EQ channel strip? Built in the USA at a competitive price point? With great service backing it up? LA3A killers. 1073 killers. Small diaphragm pencil mics designed by Bock?
We'll never know.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Feb 3, 2023 15:08:59 GMT -6
Seems confusing, buy the Bock brand - not a necessarily hugely famous microphone brand although definitely known amongst those who purchase microphones to be of the highest quality, then fire the main designer/creator and assume your credibility with the taking over the brand wont be completely shot? When the target audience interested in the Bock brand would surely notice something like that happening? UA seems to be spreading themselves far too thin to make good decisions And the first rule of being a bean counter is to assume that eveybody else is more stupid than you are.
I’ve been trying to find a way to phrase this for years. Nailed it. |
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Post by Quint on Feb 3, 2023 15:20:12 GMT -6
No offense to anyone but could we keep debate about quality of plugins to somewhere else..? Why does everything always devolve into that topic? The real loss here, with Bock leaving isn't the mics. I'm sure they'll be solid whenever they do finally drop. What we've all lost is everything that was planned beyond the mics. When he came aboard the great ship UA I heard from a couple mutual LA friends that big things were planned including, down the road great possibilities for more hardware. Realistically, Mr Bock is a rare breed of human who can fix anything in a studio. Not only mics. Tape machines. Rebuild an old Neve desk? This is not a problem. And I'm sure he's got more of that work then he could possibly handle. On the east coast master tech John Klett has a three year backlog. At least that's what he told me a couple years ago when I asked him about squaring up my old Telefunken modules. I passed. Guys like that? They're gonna be fine. I'm sure he's not worried about where his next sandwich is coming from. As for UA? Hardware? Another thing I heard from a few people, including my dude at Sweetwater so I have to assume its true... Apparently just as Bock was coming onboard UA broke ground on a new facility dedicated to building mics & analog hardware. Not renovated. Ground up construction on a piece of land near (across the street?) from their main headquarters. That's a massive investment. Big time skin. Yeah, opinions vary on their LA2a including my own. Be that as it may I know at one point, maybe only a year ago there was a massive backorder on those. The SW guy told me, as we're talking about my supposedly incoming Bock mics... that some of the Tube Tech CL1A biz shifted to UA. With TT on a multi year backlog that makes sense. That new facility was also the reason given for missing the first ship date. That things were taking a bit of time to really come online... I get it. As a "tool guy" I know Stanley built a new plant in Texas supposedly dedicated to making Craftsman tools... things like sockets & wrenches. The plant exists. We've seen pics on social media of new tools here & there... but where are they..? I digress. Slightly. People dig the UA hardware including me. At one point, a long time ago they were purely a hardware company. Those LA3A reissues they made 20 years ago are great! Why did those disappear? Seems every time UA puts a pic of those on their social media people ask them to build those again. That's the loss. Things like that. What if... what if down the road Bock would've designed a 1073 killer? Some kinda preamp EQ channel strip? Built in the USA at a competitive price point? With great service backing it up? LA3A killers. 1073 killers. Small diaphragm pencil mics designed by Bock? We'll never know. Interesting info. Yeah, we'll never know. I know UA is downplaying all of this, but it does make you wonder what's going on over there. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 3, 2023 15:35:54 GMT -6
Ah, that's almost defamatory speculation, do you actually know the guy and anything about his work ethic and integrity: I doubt you do.
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Post by jmoose on Feb 3, 2023 16:13:16 GMT -6
Ah, that's almost defamatory speculation, do you actually know the guy and anything about his work ethic and integrity: I doubt you do. Well that guy disappeared quick! I saw the comments you were referring too... absolutely agree. Totally uncool & uncalled for. As a whole... rumor on the street is that UA had been chasing Bock for a while and maybe had to convince him to join. Like all great marriages there was a 5 year plan? And like all divorces there's really only 2 people who actually know what happened. From the outside though? It certainly seems odd that the guy who's namesake is on the mics wasn't around through the launch. I'd almost bet that wasn't part of the plan at inception. Figure, if that WAS the plan? For him to leave? It's certainly not been handled well which makes me think he was either forced out or quit on his own. And frankly it doesn't even matter at this point. Dave's not here man. Its messy. And we'll probably never know why. |
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Post by ab101 on Feb 3, 2023 16:20:36 GMT -6
All we can really do is hope for the best for UA and for Bock. That benefits them and everyone else. I think it would be best to keep that focus in the absense of any more facts, including any comments from people who get any of the UA mics.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 3, 2023 16:35:55 GMT -6
jmoose he responded to my comment gratuitously referring to his position as being a devil’s advocate, seems he got a little more prudent: pulled both his comments.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2023 17:01:37 GMT -6
But as of now the appeal to me is gone. I don't need more mics to get anything done. Plenty of stuff here... about 3 dozen total with couple different flavors of Neumann, old Latvian made Blues... if someone's after a real hi fi piece? Things like a real 1971 U67 or a Manley Reference? All I gotta do is phone a friend. The appeal to me was getting something of a legacy piece. Yeah that's UA Bock serial number #23... yeah its cool. Now without him there in my mind there's no difference between #23 and #2300. So why stay on the pre-order? I was going to have the first one through the door at Sweetwater, and now I don't. Life goes on. To me pieces like that have some appeal... the collectors thing. My pair of Blue Baby Bottles are within the first 50 made. I also have two of the first thousand UA 1176's ever made. Bought way back when they were a new company and it was their only product 20 years ago. How has the industry changed in that time..? And UA themselves? That's cool but I'm not a first number chaser, I just like to actually buy the stuff I want. I'm sure there's good reasons for the delay's but after a while I'll start peeking over the fence (which I have) and as for the whole UA thing. Sure, they're expensive comparitively but I've never had any issues with them so I'll leave the speculation at the door. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 3, 2023 17:05:32 GMT -6
No offense to anyone but could we keep debate about quality of plugins to somewhere else..? Why does everything always devolve into that topic? The real loss here, with Bock leaving isn't the mics. I'm sure they'll be solid whenever they do finally drop. What we've all lost is everything that was planned beyond the mics. When he came aboard the great ship UA I heard from a couple mutual LA friends that big things were planned including, down the road great possibilities for more hardware. Realistically, Mr Bock is a rare breed of human who can fix anything in a studio. Not only mics. Tape machines. Rebuild an old Neve desk? This is not a problem. And I'm sure he's got more of that work then he could possibly handle. On the east coast master tech John Klett has a three year backlog. At least that's what he told me a couple years ago when I asked him about squaring up my old Telefunken modules. I passed. Guys like that? They're gonna be fine. I'm sure he's not worried about where his next sandwich is coming from. As for UA? Hardware? Another thing I heard from a few people, including my dude at Sweetwater so I have to assume its true... Apparently just as Bock was coming onboard UA broke ground on a new facility dedicated to building mics & analog hardware. Not renovated. Ground up construction on a piece of land near (across the street?) from their main headquarters. That's a massive investment. Big time skin. Yeah, opinions vary on their LA2a including my own. Be that as it may I know at one point, maybe only a year ago there was a massive backorder on those. The SW guy told me, as we're talking about my supposedly incoming Bock mics... that some of the Tube Tech CL1A biz shifted to UA. With TT on a multi year backlog that makes sense. That new facility was also the reason given for missing the first ship date. That things were taking a bit of time to really come online... I get it. As a "tool guy" I know Stanley built a new plant in Texas supposedly dedicated to making Craftsman tools... things like sockets & wrenches. The plant exists. We've seen pics on social media of new tools here & there... but where are they..? I digress. Slightly. People dig the UA hardware including me. At one point, a long time ago they were purely a hardware company. Those LA3A reissues they made 20 years ago are great! Why did those disappear? Seems every time UA puts a pic of those on their social media people ask them to build those again. That's the loss. Things like that. What if... what if down the road Bock would've designed a 1073 killer? Some kinda preamp EQ channel strip? Built in the USA at a competitive price point? With great service backing it up? LA3A killers. 1073 killers. Small diaphragm pencil mics designed by Bock? We'll never know. Moose The first rule of buying a company should always be, yeah they are a great company, there is potential for growth but can we afford to do what we do, what we want to do, pay for the company and PAY FOR THE MONEY TO BUY THEM LONG TERM? The whole COVID thing killed a lot of companies but what is killing even more is the arrogance of not understanding that COVID gave them a short term bump, not a long term bump. I’m sure UA did really good during COVID, but I’ll bet nobody said let’s wait and see what happens. I heard rumors of Physical expansion, and couldn’t believe they bought Bock and Slate. Nobody saw labor and the cost of money going up, but everyone with at least a high school Econ course should have known when the cost of labor went up so would the cost of money, the 2 ingredients in everything. |
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Post by plush on Feb 3, 2023 17:24:24 GMT -6
I am disgusted that my friend David Bock has been dumped out.
Yesterday he wrote that apparently the CFO of UA liked software better than hardware. So some kind of unwillingness on the part of UA to give full commitment to the Bock mic lineup? As David would require.
Just don’t know but obviously it smells.
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Post by Quint on Feb 3, 2023 17:43:27 GMT -6
No offense to anyone but could we keep debate about quality of plugins to somewhere else..? Why does everything always devolve into that topic? The real loss here, with Bock leaving isn't the mics. I'm sure they'll be solid whenever they do finally drop. What we've all lost is everything that was planned beyond the mics. When he came aboard the great ship UA I heard from a couple mutual LA friends that big things were planned including, down the road great possibilities for more hardware. Realistically, Mr Bock is a rare breed of human who can fix anything in a studio. Not only mics. Tape machines. Rebuild an old Neve desk? This is not a problem. And I'm sure he's got more of that work then he could possibly handle. On the east coast master tech John Klett has a three year backlog. At least that's what he told me a couple years ago when I asked him about squaring up my old Telefunken modules. I passed. Guys like that? They're gonna be fine. I'm sure he's not worried about where his next sandwich is coming from. As for UA? Hardware? Another thing I heard from a few people, including my dude at Sweetwater so I have to assume its true... Apparently just as Bock was coming onboard UA broke ground on a new facility dedicated to building mics & analog hardware. Not renovated. Ground up construction on a piece of land near (across the street?) from their main headquarters. That's a massive investment. Big time skin. Yeah, opinions vary on their LA2a including my own. Be that as it may I know at one point, maybe only a year ago there was a massive backorder on those. The SW guy told me, as we're talking about my supposedly incoming Bock mics... that some of the Tube Tech CL1A biz shifted to UA. With TT on a multi year backlog that makes sense. That new facility was also the reason given for missing the first ship date. That things were taking a bit of time to really come online... I get it. As a "tool guy" I know Stanley built a new plant in Texas supposedly dedicated to making Craftsman tools... things like sockets & wrenches. The plant exists. We've seen pics on social media of new tools here & there... but where are they..? I digress. Slightly. People dig the UA hardware including me. At one point, a long time ago they were purely a hardware company. Those LA3A reissues they made 20 years ago are great! Why did those disappear? Seems every time UA puts a pic of those on their social media people ask them to build those again. That's the loss. Things like that. What if... what if down the road Bock would've designed a 1073 killer? Some kinda preamp EQ channel strip? Built in the USA at a competitive price point? With great service backing it up? LA3A killers. 1073 killers. Small diaphragm pencil mics designed by Bock? We'll never know. Moose The first rule of buying a company should always be, yeah they are a great company, there is potential for growth but can we afford to do what we do, what we want to do, pay for the company and PAY FOR THE MONEY TO BUY THEM LONG TERM? The whole COVID thing killed a lot of companies but what is killing even more is the arrogance of not understanding that COVID gave them a short term bump, not a long term bump. I’m sure UA did really good during COVID, but I’ll bet nobody said let’s wait and see what happens. I heard rumors of Physical expansion, and couldn’t believe they bought Bock and Slate. Nobody saw labor and the cost of money going up, but everyone with at least a high school Econ course should have known when the cost of labor went up so would the cost of money, the 2 ingredients in everything. Bought Slate? |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 3, 2023 17:46:53 GMT -6
I am disgusted that my friend David Bock has been dumped out. Yesterday he wrote that apparently the CFO of UA liked software better than hardware. So some kind of unwillingness on the part of UA to give full commitment to the Bock mic lineup? As David would require. Just don’t know but obviously it smells. I’m sure someone edited out he likes the “ Profits” of software more😁 the development costs are probably a tad higher but the manufacturing costs are lower and when you sell it direct no pesky dealers to take a cut! |
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Post by plinker on Feb 3, 2023 21:56:46 GMT -6
I'm not a financial supporter, but I must admit that they haven't rested on their laurels -- I'd be surprised if >15% of their profits come from their hardware classics/reissues. Software -
It's much cheaper, much easier from every aspect, and has a much higher profit margin than hardware. And once you let the bean counters in..... Cloning one's own electrical circuit is much easier than emulating it in software. Cloning a public domain electrical circuit is also much easier than emulating it in software.
Higher profit margin -- yes!
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 4, 2023 8:58:21 GMT -6
Software -
It's much cheaper, much easier from every aspect, and has a much higher profit margin than hardware. And once you let the bean counters in..... Cloning one's own electrical circuit is much easier than emulating it in software. Cloning a public domain electrical circuit is also much easier than emulating it in software.
Higher profit margin -- yes!
Easier? So what? you still have materials costs, labor costs, distribution costs, etc, which you don't have with software. Whith softyware, after your development is done it's pretty much all gravy. And from what I hear, they don'y usually go for a straightforward circuit emulation - it's more of a function emulation. |
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 4, 2023 9:07:02 GMT -6
I am disgusted that my friend David Bock has been dumped out. Yesterday he wrote that apparently the CFO of UA liked software better than hardware. So some kind of unwillingness on the part of UA to give full commitment to the Bock mic lineup? As David would require. Just don’t know but obviously it smells. No, YOU smell (the aroma.) IT stinks. And I hate to say it, but I saw it coming from the get-go. Lots of people thought that David Bock was too infuential a designed/builder to get the corporate heave-ho. I was right, they were all wrong. (I HATE being right in cases like this.) UA has shown the signs of rot for a long time if anyone was to simply look.
And the CFO of UA is a lying SOB to not have been honest about their goals is the first place.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 4, 2023 9:16:28 GMT -6
No offense to anyone but could we keep debate about quality of plugins to somewhere else..? Why does everything always devolve into that topic? The real loss here, with Bock leaving isn't the mics. I'm sure they'll be solid whenever they do finally drop. What we've all lost is everything that was planned beyond the mics. When he came aboard the great ship UA I heard from a couple mutual LA friends that big things were planned including, down the road great possibilities for more hardware. Realistically, Mr Bock is a rare breed of human who can fix anything in a studio. Not only mics. Tape machines. Rebuild an old Neve desk? This is not a problem. And I'm sure he's got more of that work then he could possibly handle. On the east coast master tech John Klett has a three year backlog. At least that's what he told me a couple years ago when I asked him about squaring up my old Telefunken modules. I passed. Guys like that? They're gonna be fine. I'm sure he's not worried about where his next sandwich is coming from. As for UA? Hardware? Another thing I heard from a few people, including my dude at Sweetwater so I have to assume its true... Apparently just as Bock was coming onboard UA broke ground on a new facility dedicated to building mics & analog hardware. Not renovated. Ground up construction on a piece of land near (across the street?) from their main headquarters. That's a massive investment. Big time skin. Yeah, opinions vary on their LA2a including my own. Be that as it may I know at one point, maybe only a year ago there was a massive backorder on those. The SW guy told me, as we're talking about my supposedly incoming Bock mics... that some of the Tube Tech CL1A biz shifted to UA. With TT on a multi year backlog that makes sense. That new facility was also the reason given for missing the first ship date. That things were taking a bit of time to really come online... I get it. As a "tool guy" I know Stanley built a new plant in Texas supposedly dedicated to making Craftsman tools... things like sockets & wrenches. The plant exists. We've seen pics on social media of new tools here & there... but where are they..? I digress. Slightly. People dig the UA hardware including me. At one point, a long time ago they were purely a hardware company. Those LA3A reissues they made 20 years ago are great! Why did those disappear? Seems every time UA puts a pic of those on their social media people ask them to build those again. That's the loss. Things like that. What if... what if down the road Bock would've designed a 1073 killer? Some kinda preamp EQ channel strip? Built in the USA at a competitive price point? With great service backing it up? LA3A killers. 1073 killers. Small diaphragm pencil mics designed by Bock? We'll never know. I didn't say anything about the quality of plugins. It's an entirely different issue. What we are actually talking about is the quality (and quantity) of MONEY!
Anmd the fact that the people running UA are crooks. nI knew it a decade age when they introduced a dingus that allowed running their plugs without their interface, and then discontinued both the dingus and the (older) softwre it ran without warning, only 6 months later.
The people running UA case about only one thing - $$$$$. That should be obvious to anyone who isn't a rube.
The other thing that should be obvious is that beancounters have no concept of future products or of progress. Once they take over the company is dead - th only question is how long and protracted the dying will be.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 4, 2023 9:22:26 GMT -6
Mr. Bock had enough time there to oversee production of the new mics. If UAD simply sticks to those standards, there's no reason to think they will sound worse because the designer has left the company. That said, it's quite common for the main person in a company to stay on after a buyout with a new company for a year or two and then leave. It's up to UA to maintain quality, but it wouldn't be a surprise if quality diminished. The odds of UA sticking with Bock's quality standards are slim to none. If they wanted his standards they would not have fired him. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 4, 2023 9:35:49 GMT -6
Well, we don't really know anything about the details do we. I have three friends whose companies were bought out. Two stayed on for 1 1/2 years, one stayed with the company. Sticking around for a while and then leaving is actually more the norm than unusual. It doesn't necessarily mean something's wrong, though it very well may be so.
I'm interested in hearing Bock's U-67 style mic. I don't like the colors they chose, but if it sounds great, that really is no big deal.
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Post by phantom on Feb 4, 2023 9:46:24 GMT -6
Oh yeah, those colors. They look horrible.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 4, 2023 9:47:15 GMT -6
Indeed they do.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 4, 2023 10:09:19 GMT -6
Mr. Bock had enough time there to oversee production of the new mics. If UAD simply sticks to those standards, there's no reason to think they will sound worse because the designer has left the company. That said, it's quite common for the main person in a company to stay on after a buyout with a new company for a year or two and then leave. It's up to UA to maintain quality, but it wouldn't be a surprise if quality diminished. The odds of UA sticking with Bock's quality standards are slim to none. If they wanted his standards they would not have fired him. We don’t know the initial compensation deal. He might have negotiated a high package at first, which then appeared expensive in the downturn, making him vulnerable. It could just be about money coming in and going out the door ? HR legal semantics but lay off is different than firing, in terms of legal implications, cause etc.? |
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