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Post by plinker on Jan 3, 2023 18:44:34 GMT -6
Exciting things are afoot at the Circle K!
New emulations of preamps (OK, Unison is not so new, but still...), plugin saturations, and saturations, and saturations, and more...
Where does RGO sit on the importance of preamps, clean-v-colored, now? I know a couple of you have gone to the clean side, or just don't give-a-shit about preamp distortion, based on your posts.
Was Millennia right all along? Should we not "paint ourselves into a corner" and let the software do it after the fact/track?
??
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 3, 2023 18:50:29 GMT -6
Exciting things are afoot at the Circle K!
New emulations of preamps (OK, Unison is not so new, but still...), plugin saturations, and saturations, and saturations, and more...
Where does RGO sit on the importance of preamps, clean-v-colored, now? I know a couple of you have gone to the clean side, or just don't give-a-shit about preamp distortion, based on your posts.
Was Millennia right all along? Should we not "paint ourselves into a corner" and let the software do it after the fact/track?
??
software has gotten better, but it’s still not perfect to me. I definitely like recording with some color over ultra clean, unless it’s classical music. And sometimes even then… |
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Post by gwlee7 on Jan 3, 2023 19:32:56 GMT -6
Since I have been “reamping” and running tracks back through the Silver Bullet to get the tracked sound I want, I have actually bought some pieces to be able to leave the SB on the mix buss the whole time. Even though I don’t do my own final mixes, mixing into the SB with a G buss style comp helps me get individual tracks the way I want them.
Short story, I am shooting for vibe on the way in.
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Post by ab101 on Jan 3, 2023 19:36:34 GMT -6
I love Locomotive pres for tracking when I want vibe and color. I have the 286a but I understand that there 2 ch pre right now may even be better and less expensive which is a little hard to believe.
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Post by bchurch on Jan 4, 2023 5:53:43 GMT -6
I've just never seen so much ado about so little. The way people have been talking about tape/transformer saturation online (cough, YouTube channels, cough cough, Reddit, cough) - you would think that bussing your mix to 1/2" tape or running through a pair of Neve line inputs would make the dead walk again. It's a profoundly subtle difference that can definitely melt some of the frost on an otherwise chilly mix, but it's subtle. When I hear examples of what people are calling 'preamp saturation', it's like they're running it through an old Peavey Bandit amp or something.
Sorry, up too early. Kiddo's got an ear infection.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 4, 2023 8:43:20 GMT -6
As I’ve said, with the ancient stuff I use, most of what gets called ‘colored’ seems like little color at all to me. Yet what I go for lacks the purposeful overdrive people feel the need to pursue. It’s all subtle layering as you said. When I'm looking for color Im not looking for overdrive. I despise the word saturation, it makes no sense to me, at best it's a terrible description.
The debate also boils down to people who want to make decisions early or postpone forever. I’m dealing with outside clients so the decisions are endless and I want as many off the table as soon as possible. If a decision appears wrong it’s my job to notice and correct it. The last thing I ever want is to play it safe by adding an additional decision tree for later. I pick the mic, preamp, comp, eq I think will be best for the source, and print it that way. Many channels in parallel like that. It’s kinda like live sound, you figure out what you can and can’t get away with safely, and your bandwidth for those decisions grows with experience. Get it mostly right, a flat fader mix sounds mostly done. Cheaper for the client too.
In the end you can use almost anything. Whatever makes life seem easier faster seems advised.
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Post by svart on Jan 4, 2023 8:51:48 GMT -6
I've just never seen so much ado about so little. The way people have been talking about tape/transformer saturation online (cough, YouTube channels, cough cough, Reddit, cough) - you would think that bussing your mix to 1/2" tape or running through a pair of Neve line inputs would make the dead walk again. It's a profoundly subtle difference that can definitely melt some of the frost on an otherwise chilly mix, but it's subtle. When I hear examples of what people are calling 'preamp saturation', it's like they're running it through an old Peavey Bandit amp or something. Sorry, up too early. Kiddo's got an ear infection. Agreed. I used to think it was just my untrained ears not "getting" it when I never heard much difference. Tons of folks everywhere preaching at the pulpit of tone can really skew your expectations and make you doubt everything your ears are telling you, but after a few decades, I now know that it's such a tiny-little-subtle difference that it's barely worth the cost/effort. I have plenty of pres now that I don't think I'll need to purchase any more, but if I did, it's all about features, not "tone". |
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Post by Ward on Jan 4, 2023 9:16:31 GMT -6
I love very slight preamp distortion on most everything. It adds sparkle and yet softens any brittleness. It adds warmth without mud.
Emulation is like anime.
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Post by drbill on Jan 4, 2023 9:47:06 GMT -6
I love very slight preamp distortion on most everything. It adds sparkle and yet softens any brittleness. It adds warmth without mud. Emulation is like anime. Ditto. Somewhere between difficult and impossible to get in a plug. It IS subtle when used correctly (IMO), but so desirable. When used incorrectly, it sounds awful. (IMO) |
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Post by phantom on Jan 4, 2023 10:19:33 GMT -6
What you guys think of Softube's Overstayer plugin?
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jan 4, 2023 10:34:17 GMT -6
Anytime I see one of these videos I hope it’s ether overstated in the video to make a point, it bad Codec, then reality sits in and I realize subtle is not in the YouTube vernacular.
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Post by plinker on Jan 4, 2023 10:36:13 GMT -6
I've just never seen so much ado about so little. The way people have been talking about tape/transformer saturation online (cough, YouTube channels, cough cough, Reddit, cough) - you would think that bussing your mix to 1/2" tape or running through a pair of Neve line inputs would make the dead walk again. It's a profoundly subtle difference that can definitely melt some of the frost on an otherwise chilly mix, but it's subtle. When I hear examples of what people are calling 'preamp saturation', it's like they're running it through an old Peavey Bandit amp or something. Sorry, up too early. Kiddo's got an ear infection. THIS is very funny! I appreciate the late night/up early postings. All: I guess the point of my question is that, since the effect is so subtle, aren't we at a point where it can be effectively emulated? Or are we not there yet. Mark, Ward, and Bill certainly don't think so, and they prefer to simply use their preamps selectively during tracking. When I try tools like NEOLD, I'm convinced -- but, then again, I'm not a pro. |
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Post by drbill on Jan 4, 2023 11:02:09 GMT -6
IME - subtle is way harder to do than obvious. Art and subtlety lies in the last 10-15%.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 4, 2023 11:03:20 GMT -6
yeah, or even less %
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Post by plinker on Jan 4, 2023 11:08:54 GMT -6
IME - subtle is way harder to do than obvious. Art and subtlety lies in the last 10-15%. Good point -- and I think this explains my innate clumsiness with women. |
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Post by EmRR on Jan 4, 2023 11:12:10 GMT -6
Where does RGO sit on the importance of preamps, clean-v-colored, now? I know a couple of you have gone to the clean side, or just don't give-a-shit about preamp distortion, based on your posts.
Another angle - I do give a shit about preamp distortion in that I don't want bad preamp distortion. Like average mid-grade quality transformerless IC distortion. There's ALWAYS some distortion, and there's a lot of 'clean characterless' preamps with pretty obnoxious artifacts (distortion) that COLOR the 'sold as clean' sonics. I don't want that color stacking up. There's contradictory things that happen in the realm - Midas Venice preamps have less headroom than Mackie, but they sound OK clipped, the Mackie sound terrible. A Sytek preamp into distortion on a vocal tends to sound richer for awhile before it crosses into obvious clipping. Other things make a take killing splat immediately. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2023 11:20:02 GMT -6
Agreed. I used to think it was just my untrained ears not "getting" it when I never heard much difference. I never understood this statement, if it takes even relatively trained ears time to spot differences then how exactly are music consumers on various playbacks systems supposed to notice? We're not engineering for us, we're doing it for them.. Or should there be disclaimers saying, "sorry you can't listen to this song without 10,000 hours of training on $10K speakers."
Different mic's work better with certain amps for obvious reasons but in essence their only job is to get a mic up to line level. Most current amps spec out at 0.001% THD and if you compare that to any monitoring chain anywhere it's nothing. Yes, circuit designs all sound different but that's not a technical proficiency barrier hence why it's subtle. The only preamp type that I've come across that makes notable differences are tube designs (or really bad preamps), the 610-B / DBX 676 sounds nothing like any preamp I've heard for better or worse. I'm very 50/50 on the 610-B.
Anyway, I agree with bchurch's rather hilarious position also.
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Post by drbill on Jan 4, 2023 11:26:31 GMT -6
IME - subtle is way harder to do than obvious. Art and subtlety lies in the last 10-15%. Good point -- and I think this explains my innate clumsiness with women. Haha!! Right now I'm fighting "splat" on the front transients of piano notes. Horrible. And it's a coloration that I HATE HATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And transformer pre's tend to take this type of abuse better. There's saturation and then there's saturation. Some good. Some bad. I only want the good. |
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Post by drumsound on Jan 4, 2023 11:28:23 GMT -6
I've just never seen so much ado about so little. The way people have been talking about tape/transformer saturation online (cough, YouTube channels, cough cough, Reddit, cough) - you would think that bussing your mix to 1/2" tape or running through a pair of Neve line inputs would make the dead walk again. It's a profoundly subtle difference that can definitely melt some of the frost on an otherwise chilly mix, but it's subtle. When I hear examples of what people are calling 'preamp saturation', it's like they're running it through an old Peavey Bandit amp or something. Sorry, up too early. Kiddo's got an ear infection. I'm really in this camp. I did the bunch of outboard pres in my early days. But that started at a Mackie/ADAT studio. After we upgraded the console to a TAC Magnum I did less of it. Now, most things go through my Neotek. I have a nice tube pre I like for vocals, and often acoustic guitar and piano go through a Great River MP2H the clean original. When I look to color I often do it with compression, in tracking or in mixing. By putting some dynamic squeeze the tone often feels thicker and more present. It's pretty rare that I use something that is a dedicated saturator. The exception is Bass. I am pretty into the Tchad Blake "real tight bass" preset on Decapitator. It doesn't have a ton of drive, it just makes the bass speak a little more clearly. |
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Post by drumrec on Jan 4, 2023 11:41:15 GMT -6
I'm the dude that loves the sound when I drive the preamp a little, so you get that subtle body and mojo. Now I record 80% of the time drums (I like when it rounds off the transients a bit). Built a 10 channel pad for just that purpose. But at the same time, I have an open mind for what the digital world can offer in 2023. If you want to look at plugins that I think sound good 4 this purpose (now I'm not comparing hardware/software), I think "KIT BB N105 V2" sounds great when you drive the mic /pre. Worth checking out.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 4, 2023 11:52:08 GMT -6
First off I think all of us who came up with tape find this funny because at some point everyone was trying to take the sound of tape out of the equation, to see these guys try to exaggerate it is hilarious.
Now at some point we all embraced a tone, color or effect in a exaggerated context, the difference between the pros and these guys is the pro’s go down that road if and when it serves the music. These guys think they have discovered Midas secret of how to turn anything into gold, but it’s only iron oxide.
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Post by drbill on Jan 4, 2023 12:14:32 GMT -6
First off I think all of us who came up with tape find this funny because at some point everyone was trying to take the sound of tape out of the equation, to see these guys try to exaggerate it is hilarious. Now at some point we all embraced a tone, color or effect in a exaggerated context, the difference between the pros and these guys is the pro’s go down that road if and when it serves the music. These guys think they have discovered Midas secret of how to turn anything into gold, but it’s only iron oxide. Yes Eric! A prime example of this "tape is the ultimate goal" mentality is a record I mastered where the tracking/mixing engineer was a hardcore CLA advocate. Upon getting the masters, there was NO high end. None. I asked him to remove his 2 buss plugins and send me the files again. He said there were no plugins on the masters. I told him there was no HF above 11k, and asked what happened. He said that CLA is a huge advocate of LPF-ing everything above 10-12k to make things sound like "tape". LOL. He rolled off EVERYthing when he was tracking and in production. It wasn't there anymore. I told him my tape machine's -3dB down point was somewhere around 35k. Haha! Knowledge without understanding is dangerous. The problem of the internet instead of interning era.... |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 4, 2023 13:27:21 GMT -6
First off I think all of us who came up with tape find this funny because at some point everyone was trying to take the sound of tape out of the equation, to see these guys try to exaggerate it is hilarious. Now at some point we all embraced a tone, color or effect in a exaggerated context, the difference between the pros and these guys is the pro’s go down that road if and when it serves the music. These guys think they have discovered Midas secret of how to turn anything into gold, but it’s only iron oxide. Yes Eric! A prime example of this "tape is the ultimate goal" mentality is a record I mastered where the tracking/mixing engineer was a hardcore CLA advocate. Upon getting the masters, there was NO high end. None. I asked him to remove his 2 buss plugins and send me the files again. He said there were no plugins on the masters. I told him there was no HF above 11k, and asked what happened. He said that CLA is a huge advocate of LPF-ing everything above 10-12k to make things sound like "tape". LOL. He rolled off EVERYthing when he was tracking and in production. It wasn't there anymore. I told him my tape machine's -3dB down point was somewhere around 35k. Haha! Knowledge without understanding is dangerous. The problem of the internet instead of interning era.... If I am tracking something I know is going to be sent out to someone else to mix since the advent of the DAW I always provide a dry track as well as my "wet track" I don't think enough AE's today understand how lucky they are that for the most part they never need to erase and have the option on even a used $150 laptop to have all these tracks to fall back on and how easy it is to split a line output. I have had the most amateur mixers complain, but I have also gotten work in the past from well regarded mixers. On the same page lets all admit it if someone sends us a project to mix, the first action after a quick listen is removing all the plugins!. One I first started doing a lot of mix rescue 90% of the work was removing all the effects. that yeah sounded kool as individual tracks but , as a song just didn't fit. |
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Post by bchurch on Jan 4, 2023 13:56:56 GMT -6
Anytime I see one of these videos I hope it’s ether overstated in the video to make a point, it bad Codec, then reality sits in and I realize subtle is not in the YouTube vernacular. Nothing like a 192kbps audio codec to really let those details shine through, no? |
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Post by bchurch on Jan 4, 2023 14:00:12 GMT -6
First off I think all of us who came up with tape find this funny because at some point everyone was trying to take the sound of tape out of the equation, to see these guys try to exaggerate it is hilarious. Now at some point we all embraced a tone, color or effect in a exaggerated context, the difference between the pros and these guys is the pro’s go down that road if and when it serves the music. These guys think they have discovered Midas secret of how to turn anything into gold, but it’s only iron oxide. Can't tell you how many times I've put McDSP FilterBank 202 on the master bus for someone who wanted to hear "analog mojo". Slight resonant bump at 15k then a 12db/oct rolloff. "Yeah, that's what I'm talking about!" |
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