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Post by Ward on Jan 4, 2023 15:24:13 GMT -6
First off I think all of us who came up with tape find this funny because at some point everyone was trying to take the sound of tape out of the equation, to see these guys try to exaggerate it is hilarious. Now at some point we all embraced a tone, color or effect in a exaggerated context, the difference between the pros and these guys is the pro’s go down that road if and when it serves the music. These guys think they have discovered Midas secret of how to turn anything into gold, but it’s only iron oxide. I have been explaining this to kids over and over again . . . tape wasn't fun! Tape wasn't a vibe or a groove. It was ALWAYS a pain in the aXX! And try editing takes together. Hours, not minutes. Most of all, th IM distortion and degradation and general fuZZiness was no fun for anyone.
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Post by bchurch on Jan 4, 2023 16:15:34 GMT -6
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Post by bchurch on Jan 4, 2023 16:30:09 GMT -6
I think for all of us who 'were there', tape represents something beyond what it actually is. I think of the bumper crop of doddering neophyte "producers" who have been weaned on a diet of FL Studio, [k]'d plugins, and the disinformation feed-bag of online tutorials and message boards that are cosplaying as audio engineers, just because they can set a compressor plug-in to "more". Put four or five people from this same foolhardy Gen Z cognoscenti in a 1990 recording studio with a Trident 80, a 2" deck, and a patchbay and say "the first person to record a basic drum beat with that kit in there gets to walk out of here, the rest of you will be fed to the alligator I've set up in a kiddie pool in that iso room over there (taking a moment to explain what an iso room is)." Guess what? That alligator is going to have a serious stomachache when it finishes off the last of them.
Now granted, there are plenty of studio engineers from that 1990 studio staff who died off because they couldn't, wouldn't, or didn't adapt to the shift out of our industry's Pleistocene era as well. So the alligator does eat both ways.
But the point is, that big old machine heating up the corner of the room with it's 10" reels spinning away represents an era when you had to know what you were doing to do what it is you did.
I need sleep.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 4, 2023 18:36:31 GMT -6
Tape was great for drums in rock when no one owned compressors
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Post by phdamage on Jan 4, 2023 23:03:18 GMT -6
As someone who never worked in a fancy studio, I will say my old MS16 definitely helped soften up the ice pick high end of some of my cheap condensers in my earlier years (man, I would KILL to have had the cheap mic options available today!). Also, my room and monitoring were garbage for years, so I think tape helped me smooth out some of the spots my skills and gear were lacking at the time.
That said, I am more than happy to never have to stress about fucking up a punch ever again, never mind having to tap my channel cards every once in a while when they acted up, the track limitations, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2023 4:08:07 GMT -6
Blockfish was god when I was starting out. More vibe in two knobs than any cheap analog compressor.
Preamp distortions? I only go for the weirdo stuff like the Fuse ones or weirdo tube stuff. Normal API or Neve or whatever... yeah they're cool but if I'm going to pay 30 bucks for something, I want it to be an emulation of something I can't buy, archaic ancient alien tech, like using a gladius as a butcher knife. I love the Goodhertz Tupe because I can quickly click through a bunch of weird stuff.
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Post by jaba on Jan 5, 2023 9:35:21 GMT -6
It's only one ingredient of several but I do like tracking to tape because of it's limited track count, built-in ear breaks, lack of screen, and yes the sound of it.
It then usually gets dumped through the console with it's transformers/EQs into a DAW where anything can happen but usually doesn't have to because the sounds (and let's assume arrangements) are solid. This is because of good front end gear (including API pres/EQs), and bit of taming from of the tape.
This is why I like "saturation". Tiny bits of pixie dust added at multiple steps. In the end I mix faster because the sounds/transients are already sitting pretty nicely.
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Post by bchurch on Jan 5, 2023 10:35:52 GMT -6
That's an interesting take - because those are mostly considered lesser qualities (economy of space, wait time, non-visual editing - the things we take for granted now).
If I really felt like not having the sound of tape was putting me at a sonic disadvantage, I'd find some way to get some of it back. Maybe a 1" 8-track to print down subgroups and mix from there? I don't know. I haven't really entertained the thought that much because, let's face it, owning, operating, and maintaining those behemoths is a big investment of resources. If I need a little spike-softening or mix de-icing, I've got those racked up and ready to rumble.
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Post by jaba on Jan 5, 2023 13:42:44 GMT -6
While I do love the workflow I don't get to use tape every session. I started that way so it still influences how I work either way - commit as much as possible to the sound, the take, etc. It also taught me how to mic a drum kit, etc with as few mics as possible but still have some nice options. Not having a thousand little decisions when I sit down to mix just makes everything better for me.
I've mixed stuff I haven't tracked and while they turn out fine, I'd rather not start with hours of sorting through multiple guitar takes, each with 4 mics (usually phase be damned). I basically feel like I'm acting as producer/arranger but not in the good way.
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Post by bchurch on Jan 5, 2023 14:33:25 GMT -6
On that we most definitely can agree. It would be great if every aspiring AE would be given a 1-week analog studio boot camp to learn things like track, channel, and outboard effect economy. I still have no qualms committing to effects or printing a certain eq/comp if it sounds right to me. When I get in a mix, I want to get in the mix - not comp performances, not preset-surf 1,000 reamp tones, not endlessly audition sample replacements for drums. Barring a pervasive issue I can't fix with the standard mix tools available, I really want to focus on the sound, not the song.
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Post by plinker on Jan 6, 2023 17:35:49 GMT -6
OK -- I think I see the light on this. I've been going at it with my new (used) Phoenix Audio preamps.
Interface (ULN8) preamps: Honda Civic -- zippy and you feel every bump on the road Phoenix preamps: Lincoln Towncar -- boat-ride.
I don't believe there is a way to EQ (or emulate) the towncar. At least, I can't imagine that working. Maybe there is, but I'd rather just drive a Towncar.
Fuck Honda's wishbone suspension! I've got potholes to deal with.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2023 19:44:19 GMT -6
On that we most definitely can agree. It would be great if every aspiring AE would be given a 1-week analog studio boot camp to learn things like track, channel, and outboard effect economy. I still have no qualms committing to effects or printing a certain eq/comp if it sounds right to me. When I get in a mix, I want to get in the mix - not comp performances, not preset-surf 1,000 reamp tones, not endlessly audition sample replacements for drums. Barring a pervasive issue I can't fix with the standard mix tools available, I really want to focus on the sound, not the song. At that point, you’re basically a producer and should be paid a producer’s cut as such in addition to your billable hours. Like I do a lot of drums. Well recorded and nailed the tones? All I need is eq and compression and I’ll use the cleanest stuff there is. WTH bad like so many things today where you and deciding the entire sound of the record and performing audio forensics? Yeah it needs way more to sound okay and that will cost more than a typical flat or hourly rate. Audio crime scene investigator meets a painter.
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Post by bchurch on Jan 7, 2023 6:17:39 GMT -6
True, but the shift has been towards "the kick drum is recorded like shit, the group wants it to sound like "And Justice For All Pt. MMXXIV", why break my back trying to make a bad recording good when I can generate a midi track of the close mic and start retriggering in about 20 seconds?"
Hell, people WANT that microwaved burrito sound now. A real kick or snare would sound almost alien.
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Post by notneeson on Jan 7, 2023 12:35:54 GMT -6
True, but the shift has been towards "the kick drum is recorded like shit, the group wants it to sound like "And Justice For All Pt. MMXXIV", why break my back trying to make a bad recording good when I can generate a midi track of the close mic and start retriggering in about 20 seconds?" Hell, people WANT that microwaved burrito sound now. A real kick or snare would sound almost alien. The hardest part of the job isn’t getting good sounds, it’s navigating the client’s expectations relative to their abilities and talent.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 7, 2023 12:50:36 GMT -6
True, but the shift has been towards "the kick drum is recorded like shit, the group wants it to sound like "And Justice For All Pt. MMXXIV", why break my back trying to make a bad recording good when I can generate a midi track of the close mic and start retriggering in about 20 seconds?" Hell, people WANT that microwaved burrito sound now. A real kick or snare would sound almost alien. The hardest part of the job isn’t getting good sounds, it’s navigating the client’s expectations relative to their abilities and talent. very, very, very well said. 👍
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Post by plinker on Jan 7, 2023 12:52:51 GMT -6
that microwaved burrito sound I LOVE THIS!
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Post by Ward on Jan 8, 2023 10:27:04 GMT -6
True, but the shift has been towards "the kick drum is recorded like shit, the group wants it to sound like "And Justice For All Pt. MMXXIV", why break my back trying to make a bad recording good when I can generate a midi track of the close mic and start retriggering in about 20 seconds?" Hell, people WANT that microwaved burrito sound now. A real kick or snare would sound almost alien. LMAO! This post wins the forum (for me) today.
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Post by bchurch on Jan 8, 2023 11:06:30 GMT -6
True, but the shift has been towards "the kick drum is recorded like shit, the group wants it to sound like "And Justice For All Pt. MMXXIV", why break my back trying to make a bad recording good when I can generate a midi track of the close mic and start retriggering in about 20 seconds?" Hell, people WANT that microwaved burrito sound now. A real kick or snare would sound almost alien. LMAO! This post wins the forum (for me) today. Thanks for laughing at the slow erosion of my soul
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Post by Ward on Jan 8, 2023 14:09:44 GMT -6
LMAO! This post wins the forum (for me) today. Thanks for laughing at the slow erosion of my soul OMG . . . if you're not doing stand-up (on the side) by now, you should be! LOLZ!
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Post by bchurch on Jan 8, 2023 15:55:16 GMT -6
Nope, just smarmy product reviews.
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Post by Ward on Jan 9, 2023 7:47:58 GMT -6
Nope, just smarmy product reviews. Smarmy? Your product reviews ROCK! Dude, you are awesome at it. Mix or SOS should be trying to hire you.
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Post by bchurch on Jan 9, 2023 8:08:35 GMT -6
Nope, just smarmy product reviews. Smarmy? Your product reviews ROCK! Dude, you are awesome at it. Mix or SOS should be trying to hire you. Well.... when we like the product it's one thing. There's a certain plug-in developer who was most displeased at us for being honest when we ripped their new all-singing, all-dancing channel strip a new one for being a buggy POS that was more or less L1 set to "destroy". And the editor even asked me to dial it back - the original text is cynical, jaded, and dead on.
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Post by Ward on Jan 9, 2023 12:53:00 GMT -6
Smarmy? Your product reviews ROCK! Dude, you are awesome at it. Mix or SOS should be trying to hire you. Well.... when we like the product it's one thing. There's a certain plug-in developer who was most displeased at us for being honest when we ripped their new all-singing, all-dancing channel strip a new one for being a buggy POS that was more or less L1 set to "destroy". And the editor even asked me to dial it back - the original text is cynical, jaded, and dead on. Always maintain honesty and journalistic integrity! People will trust you a HELLA lot more than if you're shilling for a manufacturer.
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Post by viciousbliss on Jan 12, 2023 0:52:19 GMT -6
What you guys think of Softube's Overstayer plugin? It's much closer to the hardware in these videos I've seen when the material is basically all synths. Once the guitars and drums are added, you see how it lacks the usual things plugins always lack when it comes to their hardware counterparts. I think I'm going to stop adding many plugins after I run a track through my Fusion hardware. Adding plugins seems to take away a lot of the fullness and smoothness that Fusion imparts. I want to preserve that.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 12, 2023 2:09:13 GMT -6
OK I admit it. I had fun blasting this brief (Oktava 219>UA Volt Vintage button) raw vocal below with Plugs... MJUCjr/Relab 480L Fat Plate/UADx LA2A/Little Radiator. Whew! Now was it actually improved? Hmm... Chris
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