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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Dec 12, 2022 15:13:19 GMT -6
Still I’ll add one thing, high and low pass filters are in my mind a must for the home studio. So many guys eat up their headroom because of something they can’t hear while tracking because their monitors and room don’t go low enough. Can you fix the noise in the box, yes but you can’t get the headroom and resolution back. Oh man, this right here! For my terribly small drum room, I have to high pass so much stuff that I deliberately chose hardware with those options already available, pre-interface. Almost all of my preamps have those, and I'm only using outboard preamps. Lots of VP28s in this here setup! There are so many mic placements in my home studio that low end accumulates and I really need to get it out of the chain before it gets into the box. For room mics and things like that, I found a massive improvement with filtering out even a portion of that low end buildup on the way in. Things didn't clip as much, my tracks were cleaner, my gain staging got a lot better and I was able to make downstream moves a lot easier. Maybe I'm crazy, but if I really starting messing with the ITB EQ post-tracking, I started to get some weird phasing issues with big moves when I would combine different sets of mics...like rooms and OHs. |
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Post by M57 on Dec 12, 2022 15:37:43 GMT -6
So you're saying put a low pass filter on everything going in? None of my pre-amps have it. Do you have any recommendations? I don't need another pre-amp, and I don't know that I want to break the bank on a high end eq just for one knob. I don't care about the format, 500, 19", clunky box ..whatever. Looks like the inexpensive 500 series units out there only have HP shelving.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 12, 2022 16:13:35 GMT -6
Since you already have quite a few things mentioned here, what about the Dangerous Music 2 Bus +. It brings you a lot closer to a big console sound.
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 12, 2022 16:27:46 GMT -6
Still I’ll add one thing, high and low pass filters are in my mind a must for the home studio. So many guys eat up their headroom because of something they can’t hear while tracking because their monitors and room don’t go low enough. Can you fix the noise in the box, yes but you can’t get the headroom and resolution back. Oh man, this right here! For my terribly small drum room, I have to high pass so much stuff that I deliberately chose hardware with those options already available, pre-interface. Almost all of my preamps have those, and I'm only using outboard preamps. Lots of VP28s in this here setup! There are so many mic placements in my home studio that low end accumulates and I really need to get it out of the chain before it gets into the box. For room mics and things like that, I found a massive improvement with filtering out even a portion of that low end buildup on the way in. Things didn't clip as much, my tracks were cleaner, my gain staging got a lot better and I was able to make downstream moves a lot easier. Maybe I'm crazy, but if I really starting messing with the ITB EQ post-tracking, I started to get some weird phasing issues with big moves when I would combine different sets of mics...like rooms and OHs. All my pre's have high pass filters yet I never use them, I save that for the mix when I can decide how much low end I want to shave off. I have absolutely no headroom issues as my gain staging has -18dBFS as my virtual 0dB - so I have 18dB of headroom. In the old days of tape and then 16bit converters I used cut filters all the time - one of the joys of getting the Crane Song HEDD 192 was being apple to stop doing that when I'm tracking. Actually, I've noticed most of my sample libraries are full bandwidth and need filter cuts in the mix - I'm just happy the library makers left them full bandwidth so I have the choice at the mix stage. So many different approaches :-) |
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Dec 12, 2022 16:50:28 GMT -6
Oh man, this right here! For my terribly small drum room, I have to high pass so much stuff that I deliberately chose hardware with those options already available, pre-interface. Almost all of my preamps have those, and I'm only using outboard preamps. Lots of VP28s in this here setup! There are so many mic placements in my home studio that low end accumulates and I really need to get it out of the chain before it gets into the box. For room mics and things like that, I found a massive improvement with filtering out even a portion of that low end buildup on the way in. Things didn't clip as much, my tracks were cleaner, my gain staging got a lot better and I was able to make downstream moves a lot easier. Maybe I'm crazy, but if I really starting messing with the ITB EQ post-tracking, I started to get some weird phasing issues with big moves when I would combine different sets of mics...like rooms and OHs. All my pre's have high pass filters yet I never use them, I save that for the mix when I can decide how much low end I want to shave off. I have absolutely no headroom issues as my gain staging has -18dBFS as my virtual 0dB - so I have 18dB of headroom. In the old days of tape and then 16bit converters I used cut filters all the time - one of the joys of getting the Crane Song HEDD 192 was being apple to stop doing that when I'm tracking. Actually, I've noticed most of my sample libraries are full bandwidth and need filter cuts in the mix - I'm just happy the library makers left them full bandwidth so I have the choice at the mix stage. So many different approaches :-) Indeed! And also a perfect example of why I love threads like this. I'm still learning a ton, obviously. My room is a cube, almost geometrically perfect, and quite literally the opposite shape of what you'd want for drums. But such is life! I did consult some audio places like GIK before making any big jumps, and almost everyone said I was crazy for trying the drums in a small room. And that if I was going to do it anyway, try to get the low end under control as much as possible, by almost any way possible. For me, I try to use the lowest reasonable settings possible on my filters to avoid any dire consequences later on. For instance, for my VP28s, I'm rarely ever going -12dB at 160Hz. It helps me, but maybe for other people in other rooms with more skills, its a bad move. |
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Post by M57 on Dec 12, 2022 16:54:52 GMT -6
Since you already have quite a few things mentioned here, what about the Dangerous Music 2 Bus +. It brings you a lot closer to a big console sound. I'm not sure what the point is of a summing mixer.. for parallel compression maybe? I was thinking of putting things mostly in series at mixdown. Other than that, I don't think I need all that other functionality, do I? I have one set of monitors and wear one headset (at a time). I almost never have anyone else in the studio, and I don't have much in the way of outboard gear short of what's going into my interface, a MOTU 828es, which has more than enough gazintas and gozotas for my needs. Now if I pick up another compressor and a couple of EQs I may want to consider a patchbay. Is Console sound more impactful than a good analog compressor? Right now I'm trying to sus out what type of compressor would be a good foil for the AS buss comp, with the idea that I would probably be running them in series during mixdown. You know my music ..it doesn't hit hard. A Vari-Mu? Bridge Diode? |
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Post by ericn on Dec 12, 2022 17:02:50 GMT -6
So you're saying put a low pass filter on everything going in? None of my pre-amps have it. Do you have any recommendations? I don't need another pre-amp, and I don't know that I want to break the bank on a high end eq just for one knob. I don't care about the format, 500, 19", clunky box ..whatever. Looks like the inexpensive 500 series units out there only have HP shelving. Hi pass / Low cut, if you need it but with most near fields you won’t because they don’t go low enough. This where a decent RTA (auto correct really wanted RAT) or FFT app is worth it in the studio you can at least see what you can’t hear. |
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Post by EmRR on Dec 12, 2022 17:19:37 GMT -6
If you're compressing on the way in, you frequently want a HPF in front of the compressor if it's to be done at all. Otherwise the shit you want to get rid of is what's triggering the compressor. Maybe your compressor has an acceptable HPF in the side chain, and that works fine. Frequently not. DI bass into a compressor? Usually I damn well better have a HPF set at 20Hz to keep the thumps from pumping.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 12, 2022 17:45:03 GMT -6
M57, it was the extra + that I really liked on the 2 Bus +. Those drive circuits sound a lot like a console. If summing isn't your thing, (I've never tried it myself), you might look into the HG-2 Black Box.
I use the plug-in now on every mix, just a pinch gives you I'd say 30% of what a console does.
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Post by M57 on Dec 12, 2022 18:02:13 GMT -6
If you're compressing on the way in, you frequently want a HPF in front of the compressor if it's to be done at all. Otherwise the shit you want to get rid of is what's triggering the compressor. Maybe your compressor has an acceptable HPF in the side chain, and that works fine. Frequently not. DI bass into a compressor? Usually I damn well better have a HPF set at 20Hz to keep the thumps from pumping. The Tone Beast (which was my preferred bass pre-amp) does have a HPF but unfortunately it's at 80hz, way too high for bass. Is there not an inexpensive one trick pony HPF out there? If not, what other reasons might there be for me want to put an EQ in the chain before the compressor? All that said, it sounds like there is not a great need for HP on most other sources because they can be filtered out ITB. |
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Post by ericn on Dec 12, 2022 20:33:54 GMT -6
If you're compressing on the way in, you frequently want a HPF in front of the compressor if it's to be done at all. Otherwise the shit you want to get rid of is what's triggering the compressor. Maybe your compressor has an acceptable HPF in the side chain, and that works fine. Frequently not. DI bass into a compressor? Usually I damn well better have a HPF set at 20Hz to keep the thumps from pumping. The Tone Beast (which was my preferred bass pre-amp) does have a HPF but unfortunately it's at 80hz, way too high for bass. Is there not an inexpensive one trick pony HPF out there? If not, what other reasons might there be for me want to put an EQ in the chain before the compressor? All that said, it sounds like there is not a great need for HP on most other sources because they can be filtered out ITB. You can but what Michael and I are talking about is the stuff you don’t hear eating up your headroom. You can’t get it back. In the old days the mains went low enough to hear most of it, plus the tape machine didn’t go all that low. Like I said an RTA or FFT can show you what you don’t hear. |
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Post by robo on Dec 13, 2022 0:09:47 GMT -6
If you're compressing on the way in, you frequently want a HPF in front of the compressor if it's to be done at all. Otherwise the shit you want to get rid of is what's triggering the compressor. Maybe your compressor has an acceptable HPF in the side chain, and that works fine. Frequently not. DI bass into a compressor? Usually I damn well better have a HPF set at 20Hz to keep the thumps from pumping. The Tone Beast (which was my preferred bass pre-amp) does have a HPF but unfortunately it's at 80hz, way too high for bass. Is there not an inexpensive one trick pony HPF out there? If not, what other reasons might there be for me want to put an EQ in the chain before the compressor? All that said, it sounds like there is not a great need for HP on most other sources because they can be filtered out ITB. I wouldn’t worry about it. Most of your favorite bass tones were recorded without HPF until the mix (or not at all). If you put a compressor in the path and it sounds better, then it is better. Also if you’ve got some transformer gear in the path then you’re probably taming the lowest freqs anyway. I rarely cut subs on bass instruments during recording, because how low I cut and how steeply is very mix-dependent. |
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 13, 2022 2:31:44 GMT -6
HPF are one of those tools that on paper seem ideal. Remove that which you cannot hear and reclaim headroom - perfect. Yet, if you take that to it’s technical extreme and HPF everything in your mix that initially appears to contribute nothing to a mix you IME will end up with a very anemic segmented de-energised mix. I tried it and the effect is quite odd. I’m very careful when bandwidth topping and tailing - there’s stuff in there that’s adding important information beyond initial obvious hearing. At the same time, I feel that way about over carving out “clashing” frequencies (popular now in AI plug-ins) some of those over lapping frequencies are Psychoacoustics clues there’s more than one instrument playing and make a very subtle contribution to the sound of a recording. I do get in there with HPF and LPF and corrective EQ but it’s so easy to throw the baby out with the bath water. You can hear a mix where someone has followed all the technical rules and yet the mix is artificial and flat - IME it’s easy to hollow out the soul of the music and though EQ is of course essential, generally speaking frequency and tonal separation is better achieved with a stunning arrangement. I’m still learning too  |
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Post by christophert on Dec 13, 2022 3:07:44 GMT -6
I use a LPF or HPF extremely rarely - no matter what the source.
Shelves are much better tools.
+100% agree with thehightenor. Kills all of the interacting sonic voodoo.
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Post by miadaudio on Dec 13, 2022 3:36:10 GMT -6
If you're compressing on the way in, you frequently want a HPF in front of the compressor if it's to be done at all. Otherwise the shit you want to get rid of is what's triggering the compressor. Maybe your compressor has an acceptable HPF in the side chain, and that works fine. Frequently not. DI bass into a compressor? Usually I damn well better have a HPF set at 20Hz to keep the thumps from pumping. The Tone Beast (which was my preferred bass pre-amp) does have a HPF but unfortunately it's at 80hz, way too high for bass. Is there not an inexpensive one trick pony HPF out there? If not, what other reasons might there be for me want to put an EQ in the chain before the compressor? All that said, it sounds like there is not a great need for HP on most other sources because they can be filtered out ITB. I'm not familiar with the Tone Beast and its topology but chances are that you can modify the corner frequency of the HPF by changing a couple of capacitors and resistors (if it's a 2nd order filter). It should be a very easy mod even for those with not much experience. |
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Post by mcirish on Dec 13, 2022 9:56:55 GMT -6
For the way I work, the order of importance in hardware would be:
1) Microphones
2) Preamp and Interface
3) Compression
Everything else gets done ITB for me. I've just recently gone back to a hardware compressor on the way in. I'm using an Audio-Scape 76D. I didn't think that one change would have so much impact, but it really has. It's so much easier to dial in the vocal sound now that it's compressed on the way in. I don't slam it, but some fairly gentle 4:1 A:Slowish R:Fast helps things a lot.
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Post by plinker on Dec 13, 2022 11:08:47 GMT -6
For the way I work, the order of importance in hardware would be: 1) Microphones 2) Preamp and Interface 3) Compression Everything else gets done ITB for me. I've just recently gone back to a hardware compressor on the way in. I'm using an Audio-Scape 76D. I didn't think that one change would have so much impact, but it really has. It's so much easier to dial in the vocal sound now that it's compressed on the way in. I don't slam it, but some fairly gentle 4:1 A:Slowish R:Fast helps things a lot. 10-2-4 ... Dr. Pepper! |
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Post by drumrec on Dec 13, 2022 12:33:37 GMT -6
For the way I work, the order of importance in hardware would be: 1) Microphones 2) Preamp and Interface 3) Compression Agree with u here, except that I shift everything one step and take acoustic treatment first. After I built the last studio, everything has fallen into place with everything. So my list will be... 1) Room 2) Microphones 3) Preamp and Interface 4) Compression |
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Post by plinker on Dec 13, 2022 13:33:27 GMT -6
It's time for someone to mention that the musician is the most important piece of gear...
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Post by chessparov on Dec 13, 2022 13:51:20 GMT -6
For the way I work, the order of importance in hardware would be: 1) Microphones 2) Preamp and Interface 3) Compression Everything else gets done ITB for me. I've just recently gone back to a hardware compressor on the way in. I'm using an Audio-Scape 76D. I didn't think that one change would have so much impact, but it really has. It's so much easier to dial in the vocal sound now that it's compressed on the way in. I don't slam it, but some fairly gentle 4:1 A:Slowish R:Fast helps things a lot. 10-2-4 ... Dr. Pepper! 25 or 6:1 Chicago! Chris |
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Post by M57 on Dec 13, 2022 13:55:54 GMT -6
It's time for someone to mention that the musician is the most important piece of gear... The point of the thread (or at least my it was my intention as the OP) was to focus on hardware one might use in a hybrid fashion and weigh its value against today's plugins. So Musicians, instrument quality, microphones, placement, treatment, pre-amps, etc. shouldn't really be part of the discussion, unless for instance the pre-amp is designated for re-amping or coloring applications. Put it this way, if you can buy it as a plugin, it's fair game. |
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Post by drumrec on Dec 13, 2022 14:14:37 GMT -6
Sorry M57 I crashed into the middle of the thread. I understand what you are looking for and then I can give an example of a plugin that sounds so good that I sold the hardware. Now that was many years ago and I don't know if I would have done the same thing today. But I had a stereo DBX 160VU hardware. Spent a day in the studio comparing the UAD 160 against my hardware. Of course there was a certain difference, but it was so small that I sold the hardware and have been satisfied with the UAD 160VU plugin. |
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Post by M57 on Dec 13, 2022 15:08:45 GMT -6
Spent a day in the studio comparing the UAD 160 against my hardware. Of course there was a certain difference, but it was so small that I sold the hardware and have been satisfied with the UAD 160VU plugin. This is the type of story that makes me wonder if I shouldn't be trying and get by with a few solid versatile compressor plugins like Molot (which I don't have yet), and put my hardware money into straight mojo, like the Analog Design's Black Box. |
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Post by bossanova on Dec 13, 2022 15:54:21 GMT -6
Spent a day in the studio comparing the UAD 160 against my hardware. Of course there was a certain difference, but it was so small that I sold the hardware and have been satisfied with the UAD 160VU plugin. This is the type of story that makes me wonder if I shouldn't be trying and get by with a few solid versatile compressor plugins like Molot (which I don't have yet), and put my hardware money into straight mojo, like the Analog Design's Black Box. At this point the best ITB compressors have gotten so good (especially the TDR offerings) that it’s a matter of “different” at the highest level, rather than “as good as.” |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Dec 13, 2022 16:16:36 GMT -6
There are some hardware eqs that do things I have not been able to do with a plugin. For instance, the Heritage 73 eq jr does great things on bass. Same for some other Neve based eqs. And I have not found a plugin eq that does sweet air like the Thermionic swift. But if all you want is clean eq, there are great plugins and I would not focus there. And I agree about great compressors, especially for tracking. But as I have said before, there is something about the TDR Molot plugin compressor, that is beginning to make me think that it is only a matter of time before compressors are digitized to a point that it is indistinguishable form hardware. (And the GML compressor plugin is making me wonder the same.) Afterall, the final product all ends up with 1's and 0's in some sort of digital code that is beyond my understanding. I'm gonna agree with this and go against the accepted wisdom a bit. While most of my outboard consists of compressors and saturation type stuff, it's actually the few EQ's I have that are indispensable. The RND 551 and the EQ on the 5032 are so much better than my ITB stuff when it comes to boosting anything that it's not even close. Especially on drums. Put it this way. If I'm working remote I'll use plugin compression even when I have that tool at home. Same with EQ... usually. But if I really need to boost highs I will wait until I can run it through my 551. It's that much different/better. |
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