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Post by M57 on Dec 11, 2022 11:14:38 GMT -6
This is not just a theoretical question. I’m hoping to make one or two hardware purchases (of the processor variety) and I’d prefer not to spend money on items where plugins excel. I'm not really looking for specific recommendations at this point. Rather, I’m curious to know what plugin types folks think do the job just as well if not better than hardware, and visa versa ..where they find that hardware is vastly preferred.
It’s not really meant to be a desert island type of question, but I am kind of thinking of it as a “What are the first two categories/types of hardware you might recommend for someone who is putting together a studio with the knowledge that they might not be making any more purchases in the near term? In addition to recording chain hardware and audio interfaces, it might be best to exclude plugins that are meant to faithfully reproduce the sounds of specific pieces of hardware from the discussion, because I assume that they almost always lose. And let's further assume that the hardware is pro level I.e, the studio owner is able to spend at least a few thousand dollars on each piece of kit.
I suspect folks might want to recommend/compare specific plugins or hardware for argument's sake, and that’s ok, but really, my aim is to find out where the value is in a general sense.
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Post by notneeson on Dec 11, 2022 11:19:37 GMT -6
I’m now at a point where I have more than enough compression plugins that I think sound great, but historically that’s where I’d have recommended that someone starting out put their money into outboard.
In my view, or perhaps hearing, there have been good reverbs, delays, and EQs ITB for a long time.
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Post by sean on Dec 11, 2022 11:22:55 GMT -6
Honestly, since pretty much everyone expects instant recall, I think a good vocal tracking compressor is really all I feel that I need/want 99% of the time. But there are times I’m working with experienced singers and they aren’t required.
Everything else is sort of a luxury, and the problems that compressors can help when tracking can usually be solved with microphone placement/choice.
Of course if you have the luxury to set up your hardware and use them like plugins with hardware inserts that’s a different story…
And this coming from someone with a literal wall of compressors 😂
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Post by ragan on Dec 11, 2022 11:32:48 GMT -6
Compression is where I’d say hardware budget should go first. Reverb/delay is where I’d say hardware budget should go last.
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Post by bgrotto on Dec 11, 2022 11:41:40 GMT -6
Buss compression
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Post by sean on Dec 11, 2022 11:44:09 GMT -6
Microphones definitely are what you should put your money in first…unless of course you are primarily a mixer.
Even when I work at commercial studios I bring a lot of my own microphones…mostly because I trust the way they sound and I know they are maintained…and if a client needs to recut a vocal or punch in down the road we can do it pretty much anywhere.
I will say of all the hardware I own the Overstayer Stereo Voltage Control does something I’ve not heard in plugins…mostly adding harmonics in a pleasing way. Sometimes it really takes a mix from good to great for me
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Post by Tbone81 on Dec 11, 2022 11:46:52 GMT -6
I’d say any type of Saturation Device. Could be a compressor, eq, mic pre etc, but any HW that allows you to push things into gentle (pleasing) distortion and soft clipping.
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Post by tkaitkai on Dec 11, 2022 11:48:03 GMT -6
Agreed with the above.
Hardware compressors — even budget ones like an RNC or the Warm/GAP/KT/Lindell stuff — seem to do something I can't get with plugins. I feel like most of my tracks benefit from at least one pass through a hardware compressor, and then I can take care of everything else ITB.
I'd also say mic pres are another area where hardware excels. Preamp emus are great for adding grit/dirt/hair/whatever, but in general, they just don't do the same thing that tracking through a nice mic pre does.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Dec 11, 2022 12:17:19 GMT -6
Yes, compressors for sure, though some UAD compressors are damn good. Mic pres of course. Also color boxes like the Michelangelo, The Oven, Overstayer, Creamliner, Zulu, etc. Great harmonics and saturation still live in the analog domain IME.
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Post by copperx on Dec 11, 2022 12:31:18 GMT -6
Everybody has said it, but it bears repeating: compression, compression, compression. Track and 2-buss compressors. If you use compression as I do, almost on every track -- plug-ins, for some reason, turn everything into mush on a big mix (ok, I'm exaggerating, but you can hear MUCH more clarity and dimension on an all-hardware compressor mix). Is it aliasing? Is it broken sidechains? Who knows, but at this point, I'm too old and tired to investigate. Also, anything that distorts and saturates is better OTB.
I've found that everything else can be done ITB without much compromise: EQs, delays, reverbs, etc.
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Dec 11, 2022 14:24:24 GMT -6
In my far-from-professional and very limited experience, I've been most happy with my preamp and compressor hardware purchases versus their plugin counterparts. I'm mainly tracking drums. I have a few BAE 1073 strips with the EQ, and those things are just amazing on drums. They do however need some love on occasion just like any complex hardware piece. Certainly food for thought.
One spot I've gone all ITB and haven't for one second considered a hardware version is a Gate. I'm loving my gate plugins and have no desire to use a hardware version, ever.
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Post by ab101 on Dec 11, 2022 15:10:00 GMT -6
There are some hardware eqs that do things I have not been able to do with a plugin. For instance, the Heritage 73 eq jr does great things on bass. Same for some other Neve based eqs. And I have not found a plugin eq that does sweet air like the Thermionic swift. But if all you want is clean eq, there are great plugins and I would not focus there.
And I agree about great compressors, especially for tracking. But as I have said before, there is something about the TDR Molot plugin compressor, that is beginning to make me think that it is only a matter of time before compressors are digitized to a point that it is indistinguishable form hardware. (And the GML compressor plugin is making me wonder the same.) Afterall, the final product all ends up with 1's and 0's in some sort of digital code that is beyond my understanding.
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Post by robo on Dec 11, 2022 21:04:42 GMT -6
Like others I still prefer hardware for compression. Something flexible you can run important tracks/busses through, or a couple of character pieces.
I also think color/saturation/vibe is where hardware is still better, so a pair of good driveable preamps or color boxes will make your life easier.
Something to interface with guitar pedals (Radial EXTC) is also a good cheap way to get interesting drive/effects.
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Post by drumsound on Dec 11, 2022 23:31:02 GMT -6
I like tracking compressors. I like outboard reverb, but I've been using more ITB there as of late. I've always used an analog mix bus compressor.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 0:02:36 GMT -6
Tracking compressors, filters, and eqs are very useful. Right now for the best plugins, it's more like "what can I get in hardware that can do this?" more than the other way around. Sadly, much of the clean modern hardware has been discontinued or effectively discontinued in the move to digital, manufacturers getting bought and sold, and for lack of parts. There is still a lot of great modern stuff if you look and have at least 200 dollars for certain pieces used or new that haven't had their price jacked up yet.
Even for compression, there's not a lot of hardware that's comparable in hi-fi sound quality, smoothness of operation, and flexibility to the best plugins. My favorites are Tokyo Dawn Kotelnikov and Molot GE and Paul Frindle's Pro Audio DSP DSM v3. I use others for distortion and fx sometimes but these are worth the money. You can get them all for about 90 dollars plus tax on sale, ie Kotelnikov GE for 10, DSM v3 for 30, and Molot GE for 30-40ish.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 12, 2022 1:09:57 GMT -6
Reverb, no need, the quality of plug-in reverb is so high that should be last on your hardware list. Relab/UAD XL-480, Liquid Sonics 7th heaven, Phoenix Verb, EMT-140, Valhalla, Capitol Chambers, all are amazingly good. Would a Bricasti be nice, sure, but you'll get a lot more bang for the buck elsewhere. I've learned that it's HOW you use reverb that matters more than worrying about how just close those plug-ins are. I have a long way to go myself when it comes to dialing in a vibe.
I know you have a great mic, so I would suggest that a great hardware preamp and a really good compressor should be first on your list.
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 12, 2022 5:31:04 GMT -6
Stereo.
Stereo compression on the mix bus
Stereo EQ on the mix bus
And my preference, make it tube.
Tracking of course benefits from a whole range of hardware.
Plug-ins for me work ITB mixing when they’re reverb, delay, modulation, gating, ducking and EQ. Plus some general compression duties.
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Post by theshea on Dec 12, 2022 7:06:04 GMT -6
one great tracking chain. thats what i‘d do if i have to start all over again.
a great mic, preamp and a compressor. recording great sounding, 75% THERE sounds is the goal. than mixing itb becomes easy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 8:52:51 GMT -6
Microphones and a high quality interface would be top of my list. While I don't need a hardware compressor/limiter for what I track, it might be a good idea in a number of situations. Software gain management (ie compressor plugin) takes place after the signal has been converted and recorded. So if you have a digital over, you're stuck with it. Hardware (as long as it's analog all the way) should condition the signal before it hits the converter. That might save your cookies as long as the coloration is something you find desirable.
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Post by ericn on Dec 12, 2022 9:50:06 GMT -6
Microphones and a high quality interface would be top of my list. While I don't need a hardware compressor/limiter for what I track, it might be a good idea in a number of situations. Software gain management ( ie compressor plugin) takes place after the signal has been converted and recorded. So if you have a digital over, you're stuck with it. Hardware (as long as it's analog all the way) should condition the signal before it hits the converter. That might save your cookies as long as the coloration is something you find desirable. Damn it Micheal you beat me to it by less than an hour! Still I’ll add one thing, high and low pass filters are in my mind a must for the home studio. So many guys eat up their headroom because of something they can’t hear while tracking because their monitors and room don’t go low enough. Can you fix the noise in the box, yes but you can’t get the headroom and resolution back. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2022 11:38:34 GMT -6
Still I’ll add one thing, high and low pass filters are in my mind a must for the home studio. So many guys eat up their headroom because of something they can’t hear while tracking because their monitors and room don’t go low enough. Can you fix the noise in the box, yes but you can’t get the headroom and resolution back. Absolutely true. If you've got a strong low frequency (truck driving by, for instance) that long wave can actually be quite strong. The shorter waves ride on top of that long wave in essence, so the composite can eat up your headroom. Not much you can do once it's digitized. Most directional or multi-pattern mics will have a high-pass at 40-80Hz or so, and you can certainly make use of that. Omnis are often used because of their extended low frequencies, so they're a special case. They might have a highpass or you might have one on your preamp. Barring that (and perhaps in addition) a decent filter is a great idea. This is one of the big reasons I use a subwoofer. Sometimes there's interesting and useful content way down in that bottom octave. And sometimes there's just schmutz. You might not hear that during the business of a session, but you'll sure hear it later. |
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Post by RealNoob on Dec 12, 2022 11:41:06 GMT -6
I am newly into hardware again. I previous had compressors and was to build to from there. I now have a mojo EQ and clean EQ and I have to say EQ is the way I will suggest. I do things with these EQs that I can't do with a plugin. they way they open something up never happens in the box. Top end boosts can sound zingy like an 90's chinese mic on plugins. It's totally different the with hardware. That's my experience.
ITB, the PA SHMC, PA Townhouse, EL Arouser, MJUC and Softube CL1B get me way down the road beyond plugin EQs.
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Post by ericn on Dec 12, 2022 11:48:51 GMT -6
Still I’ll add one thing, high and low pass filters are in my mind a must for the home studio. So many guys eat up their headroom because of something they can’t hear while tracking because their monitors and room don’t go low enough. Can you fix the noise in the box, yes but you can’t get the headroom and resolution back. Absolutely true. If you've got a strong low frequency (truck driving by, for instance) that long wave can actually be quite strong. The shorter waves ride on top of that long wave in essence, so the composite can eat up your headroom. Not much you can do once it's digitized. Most directional or multi-pattern mics will have a high-pass at 40-80Hz or so, and you can certainly make use of that. Omnis are often used because of their extended low frequencies, so they're a special case. They might have a highpass or you might have one on your preamp. Barring that (and perhaps in addition) a decent filter is a great idea. This is one of the big reasons I use a subwoofer. Sometimes there's interesting and useful content way down in that bottom octave. And sometimes there's just schmutz. You might not hear that during the business of a session, but you'll sure hear it later. Even with the Questeds giving me a solid 35hz I will use a pair of subs to get down to 20hz. But even then if I’m mixing AudioTools FFT is running on my phone so I can see anything that I can’t hear! |
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Post by EmRR on Dec 12, 2022 13:06:24 GMT -6
"of the processor variety"
HPF
comps
EQ's
choices down to taste, material, goals.
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Post by M57 on Dec 12, 2022 13:49:32 GMT -6
I know you have a great mic, so I would suggest that a great hardware preamp and a really good compressor should be first on your list. I think I'm OK on the chain going in. I already have a number of good preamps.. The Great River NV-500 is my current go-to mic pre, and from there it passes through a Warm WA-2A before hitting the box. I use a pair of A-Designs P-1's for the piano, and other SDC duties like acoustic guitar, etc. I also have a Warm Tone Beast that I was using for bass, though lately I've had a real bass player playing on my tracks, so that sits mostly idle these days. That's why I'm pointing this thread toward hardware that I'd be using in a hybrid setting, mostly for printing tracks and mastering duties. The 'Compressor!' message from folks here confirms my thoughts, though second on my wants list is a color/saturation box. However, it does occur to me that some compressors can do that too. Currently I have a AudioScape Buss Compressor that sits on the two buss, and I love it. I want more analog goodness! Right now I'm leaning toward another stereo compressor ..a Vari-Mu would be nice! |
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